[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[wonderPreaux]

The jury is still out on whether or not Xantid Swarm is worth bringing in against Miracles. It's nice when they side out creature removal and you can slip it in on T1 before CB drops. I find the problem is when you have to fish for AD for a few turns they've managed to gather a plethora of counters since you haven't been able to cast any discard spells. XS might make those useless; so you don't have to AD CB and then try to work through their counters before they slam another CB.

I'd like to make the case for Xantid Swarm here, I started out as a conservative Xantid Swarm user, but I became a believer as I played the Miracles matchup more. Swarm's role as a Silence on legs (wings??) increases in value the more the density and variation of opposing counters increases. The fault in the all-discard protection plan is that if the opponent has something like FoW, Fluster/Counterspell and Envelop/Snare in hand, you have to wait for solutions for every single one to get into your hand (won't even touch how terrible it is trying to deal with a SCM in that mix). Miracles is definitely the one that wins out most often in situations where you're forced to play draw-go like this, with Xantid Swarm you get to maintain the aggression that most often leads to success.

Attacking Miracles by denying them their inevitability is what makes Xantid Swarm a valuable player, an extra bonus is that it also saves mana on the combo turn if successful, which leads to even more speed. If I drop the Swarm turn 1, realistically, how is Miracles responding? StP/Terminus is one answer, FoW is the other, since the varied counters that Miracles might play can't touch Swarm.

In the former case, removal, it's an even trade that forces them to tap out mana and delays the establishment of Top/Balance. This gives you a greater chance to make discard effective by giving you an extra turn to find it (you don't always open Duress), or preventing them from sticking Top or Brainstorming (You also catch a small edge if they Terminus your Swarm as they have one less Terminus for possible Goblins). In the latter case, FoW, you effectively created a Hymn to Tourach for G that only hits their good cards, as you'd have to deal with the FoW at some point and any blue card they have postboard is some kind of threatening thing (possible exception, Jace). Late game, the opponent is stuck keeping removal in mind for Swarm, and if you draw Swarm you can simply lay it down for Storm, flash a Therapy (I believe you have priority to Therapy before they can StP), or Brainstorm it away.

Xantid Swarm is also a huge difference-maker in Fatty or mono-U combo matchups, so it's not as though its hard to justify the slots.

[disgustipated]

I'd like to make the case for Xantid Swarm here, I started out as a conservative Xantid Swarm user, but I became a believer as I played the Miracles matchup more. Swarm's role as a Silence on legs (wings??) increases in value the more the density and variation of opposing counters increases. The fault in the all-discard protection plan is that if the opponent has something like FoW, Fluster/Counterspell and Envelop/Snare in hand, you have to wait for solutions for every single one to get into your hand (won't even touch how terrible it is trying to deal with a SCM in that mix). Miracles is definitely the one that wins out most often in situations where you're forced to play draw-go like this, with Xantid Swarm you get to maintain the aggression that most often leads to success.

Attacking Miracles by denying them their inevitability is what makes Xantid Swarm a valuable player, an extra bonus is that it also saves mana on the combo turn if successful, which leads to even more speed. If I drop the Swarm turn 1, realistically, how is Miracles responding? StP/Terminus is one answer, FoW is the other, since the varied counters that Miracles might play can't touch Swarm.

In the former case, removal, it's an even trade that forces them to tap out mana and delays the establishment of Top/Balance. This gives you a greater chance to make discard effective by giving you an extra turn to find it (you don't always open Duress), or preventing them from sticking Top or Brainstorming (You also catch a small edge if they Terminus your Swarm as they have one less Terminus for possible Goblins). In the latter case, FoW, you effectively created a Hymn to Tourach for G that only hits their good cards, as you'd have to deal with the FoW at some point and any blue card they have postboard is some kind of threatening thing (possible exception, Jace). Late game, the opponent is stuck keeping removal in mind for Swarm, and if you draw Swarm you can simply lay it down for Storm, flash a Therapy (I believe you have priority to Therapy before they can StP), or Brainstorm it away.

Xantid Swarm is also a huge difference-maker in Fatty or mono-U combo matchups, so it's not as though its hard to justify the slots.

I think Bryant's suggestion of 2 Needle and 2 Swarm sounds good. However, if not playing Needle in SB, then a minimum of 3 Swarms should probably be in the SB to obviate this dilemma. I might add that I've found Swarms to be quite effective against Infect as well, which seems to be gaining popularity as of late.

If we all start putting Xantid Swarms in our SB though, how long until Miracles players begin keeping in their creature removal? And if this does happen, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Sure, with only 2-3 Swarms, they might end up with dead cards in their hand instead of counters, but if our turns are spent dropping Xantid Swarm and passing then they have more time to find and play Counterbalance. Then we have to find our 2nd sideboard card (AD). Playing against Miracles feels a bit like sinking into quicksand. The more steps we take to set up the kill, the more time they have to circumvent the set up. Their ability to circumvent, though, comes largely from Top - which is why Pithing Needle might be a boon in this matchup. I don't disagree that Xantid Swarm can be effective against Miracles, my only complaint is that its not as "elegant" of a solution as I'd like. Although, perhaps that's the reason Miracles is a DTB - no easy answer to their strategy.

Let's say we've dropped our Swarm, passed the turn, and it comes back to us. Our hand still needs some sculpting and we're not quite ready to go off, so we attack, then proceed to Duress, brainstorm, fetch, etc. unfettered by whatever counters they might have. If we see a hand with both creature removal *and* counters, which do we take? I'm concerned that we might be inclined to take the creature removal, only to have them draw another STP or flip Terminus, and then we lose to the 3+ counters in their hand.

[wonderPreaux]

If we all start putting Xantid Swarms in our SB though, how long until Miracles players begin keeping in their creature removal? And if this does happen, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Sure, with only 2-3 Swarms, they might end up with dead cards in their hand instead of counters, but if our turns are spent dropping Xantid Swarm and passing then they have more time to find and play Counterbalance. Then we have to find our 2nd sideboard card (AD). Playing against Miracles feels a bit like sinking into quicksand. The more steps we take to set up the kill, the more time they have to circumvent the set up. Their ability to circumvent, though, comes largely from Top - which is why Pithing Needle might be a boon in this matchup. I don't disagree that Xantid Swarm can be effective against Miracles, my only complaint is that its not as "elegant" of a solution as I'd like. Although, perhaps that's the reason Miracles is a DTB - no easy answer to their strategy.

There are no elegant solutions to Miracles, I imagine thats rather the point of control, that no combo or aggro deck can simply or consistently tear you down. A lot of the time when I beat Miracles, it's because they couldn't find a Terminus for Goblins, they tapped out at the wrong time, I had an Abrupt Decay at the right time, etc. Some things do just have to go right for you.

Let's say we've dropped our Swarm, passed the turn, and it comes back to us. Our hand still needs some sculpting and we're not quite ready to go off, so we attack, then proceed to Duress, brainstorm, fetch, etc. unfettered by whatever counters they might have. If we see a hand with both creature removal *and* counters, which do we take? I'm concerned that we might be inclined to take the creature removal, only to have them draw another STP or flip Terminus, and then we lose to the 3+ counters in their hand.

Well, if they have multiple counters, it makes sense to take, say, their 1 removal. The odds are against them to get subsequent removal, and sitting around waiting for discard to match 3+ counters is the real quicksand sinking thing. If they only have 1 counter, go ahead and take it and for them to spend mana on removal.

[That nice guy]

I there there's a real lack of understanding the sideboarding concepts on your side.

Chain of Vapor is awful here. If they have a counterbalance they'll likely counter it and if you target top, you're down a card and they're plus one. Not great.

I don't like siding out a protection spell in a control based match-up without bringing in other protection which is why it was acceptable when siding in Xantids. It's about remaining neutral while having higher impact cards.

These things said, I would likely side like this:

-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Xantid Swarm

This isn't a match-up where we need the additional mana from Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual will likely be hurt by them bringing in Rest in Peace. It's acceptable to side out a Therapy if bringing in other protection as it allows for Wish to essentially become a protection spell. Ponder is a flex spot. I don't believe you need to bring in Tendrils, I haven't seen too many Meddling Mages out of Miracles. If they do have them, we have Abrupt Decay. If you decide to bring in Tendrils, I'd likely side out another Ponder.

I understand Chain is awful, but I think it's necessary with my SB. I don't run swarm so top-floating is super scary. Also, When I'm doing the draw go thing (waiting for business/sculpting) with a CB on deck, I usually lose to a second piece of hate coming down: meddling Mage, Cannonist, Leyline, top floating a spell, ect., ect. So the one chain is there to help prevent that. I'm honestly considering cutting it for a 4th decay.

As far as the sided in tendrills is concerned, I do fear the Mage, and getting the natural chain through counters is something I've gotten good at. That said I'm still running the version with Empty in the main since I have not decided on the cabal rituals.

O, and I totally see your point with swarm over the cabal, now. Thanks.

[Lemnear]

I understand Chain is awful, but I think it's necessary with my SB. I don't run swarm so top-floating is super scary. Also, When I'm doing the draw go thing (waiting for business/sculpting) with a CB on deck, I usually lose to a second piece of hate coming down: meddling Mage, Cannonist, Leyline, top floating a spell, ect., ect. So the one chain is there to help prevent that. I'm honestly considering cutting it for a 4th decay.

As far as the sided in tendrills is concerned, I do fear the Mage, and getting the natural chain through counters is something I've gotten good at. That said I'm still running the version with Empty in the main since I have not decided on the cabal rituals.

O, and I totally see your point with swarm over the cabal, now. Thanks.

In danger of sounding like a douche: do you justify boarding a bad card because of a hole in your SB constellation and a highly questionable gameplan (draw, go)? As mentioned my other users before: you block floated counters with Xantid or Needle. You can't afford 2-for-1 yourself just to get rid of a floated counter

The joke about Meddling Mage/Canonist from Miracles SB is that it became pretty rare alongside Terminus postboard.

[Bryant Cook]

Played a local tonight. Won it, going undefeated.

Won two games via Empty the Warrens
Won two games via Past in Flames
Won two games via Natural Spell Chain
Won four games via Ad Nauseam

Cabal Ritual was great, still having Chrome Mox off of Ad Nauseam was nice too.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

Played a local tonight. Won it, going undefeated.

Won two games via Empty the Warrens
Won two games via Past in Flames
Won two games via Natural Spell Chain
Won four games via Ad Nauseam

Cabal Ritual was great, still having Chrome Mox off of Ad Nauseam was nice too.

What were your matchups? Was there ever a game where you could've gone off turn one if you had an EtW in the main?

[Bryant Cook]

What were your matchups? Was there ever a game where you could've gone off turn one if you had an EtW in the main?

UR Delver (MD Eidelons)
Belcher
Deathblade
Affinity Prison (Chalices, Revokers, Cannonists, SFM -> Batterskull + Sword + Thopter, Mox Opals)
Affinity Prison (Chalices, Revokers, Cannonists, SFM -> Batterskull + Sword + Thopter, Mox Opals)

There was one game, in which I could've dropped 12 Goblins on turn one if I had Empty in the main. Instead it resulted in a turn two Ad Nauseam.

I tried siding in PIF + Tendrils over Ad Nauseam versus UR Delver. It made my draws seem much slower as in our third game I opened a hand that would've been an Ad Nauseam kill on turn one which became Goblins (Infernal for Wish for Empty). Not sure on how I feel about that plan, it is also dreadful if they have sided in Cages.

Needles were great against Belcher.

Deathblade wasn't much of a problem.

The Affinity Prison was kind of rough, Void Snare came up big in a situation where I Decayed a Cannonist end step. Untapped, Rite of Flame, Petal, Wish, Void Snare his Revoker on LED, LED, LED, Infernal, Wish, Tendrils.

[Lemnear]

There was one game, in which I could've dropped 12 Goblins on turn one if I had Empty in the main. Instead it resulted in a turn two Ad Nauseam.

Basically "skip a turn and the EtW-gamble to go for AN directly"? Wasn't this one of the topics we had recently here? ;)

[Bryant Cook]

Basically "skip a turn and the EtW-gamble to go for AN directly"? Wasn't this one of the topics we had recently here? ;)

It matters in matches with Thalia, Chalice, Wastelands and then other fast match-ups like Burn. It's not as simple as it appears to be.

[That nice guy]

So I stuck with the tried and true (3 chrome mox) and lost my first match to UR yesterday, I'm now 9-1 against them. The guy sits down in front of me and says, "crap, I hate storm". He's on the play and snap-keeps with a happy face. I assumed he has FoW in his hand (or Fow and dig), and for some reason kept a hand of land, fetch, BS, PonderX2, dark rit, Ad N. He goes T1 swift spear, probe, probe Swing. I sculpt pass after drawing land. He goes bolt, chain lightning, swing. Long story short Ad N didn't get me there at such a low life.
Game 3 I open bad hand with 2x Mox, mulligan, bad hand with mox, keep 5 to die the turn before I would have won.

That said, I won my next match against D&T with me seeing a plains, vial game 1, by emptying for 14 and riding them home thanks to mox.

Round 3 - irrelevant

Round 4 - Esper deathblade baited/duressed through counters/thoughtseize then managed to Empty(maindeck), flashback cabal, win. If it was a past in flames I think I still could have won, it just would have taken me longer.


So yeah, IDK about dumping mox for sure yet, but I'll definitely try it at my next tournament.

In danger of sounding like a douche: do you justify boarding a bad card because of a hole in your SB constellation and a highly questionable gameplan (draw, go)? As mentioned my other users before: you block floated counters with Xantid or Needle. You can't afford 2-for-1 yourself just to get rid of a floated counter

The joke about Meddling Mage/Canonist from Miracles SB is that it became pretty rare alongside Terminus postboard.

I board in everything you guys board in. I just want to bring one more piece in. Draw, go isn't my gameplan, but when you therapy/probe and see you have no option, it happens, douche.

I play against a much worse meta. Besides the 3 stax decks, D&T, and traditional miracles list, my worst match every week is UWb miracles which chooses to keep a hand with counters, E tutor turn 1 for Cannonist, play Nethervoid turn 4, that's what I have to face every week, so yeah I want an additional chain. I was just pointing out that chain has options in dire straits. That said I would only bring it in against UW running E-tutor.

Also, if cannonist/meddling is on the board, they don't need terminus as anything other than a backup plan. But in my meta, they side out swords/terminus because they can always Etutor for detention sphere, energy field, or EE.

[That nice guy]

Not sure on how I feel about that plan, it is also dreadful if they have sided in Cages.

I can't tell you how many times I see players side in RiP, cage, ect. just because they have dead cards, or are just bad. D&T did it against me last night (running the mox build) and I was like, man I don't care.

[Asthereal]

I play against a much worse meta. Besides the 3 stax decks, D&T, and traditional miracles list, my worst match every week is UWb miracles which chooses to keep a hand with counters, E tutor turn 1 for Cannonist, play Nethervoid turn 4, that's what I have to face every week, so yeah I want an additional chain. I was just pointing out that chain has options in dire straits. That said I would only bring it in against UW running E-tutor.

Am I correct in assuming your choice for TES in your meta is wrong? It sounds very wrong. Don't get me wrong, this deck is awesome and playing against a hostile meta is very good for experience, but please try not to draw too many conclusions out of it concerning the "optimal" list. A hostile meta is a hostile meta, not a reason for suboptimal choices. Your optimal choice is probably to simply play Goblins or Jund in such a meta.

[itrytostorm]

I can't tell you how many times I see players side in RiP, cage, ect. just because they have dead cards, or are just bad. D&T did it against me last night (running the mox build) and I was like, man I don't care.

While we often don't care, it can eliminate some lines that just win. I would've had D&T beat through Revoker on LED had it not been for RiP, so I had to do a risky AN that didn't work out.

[Lemnear]

Am I correct in assuming your choice for TES in your meta is wrong? It sounds very wrong. Don't get me wrong, this deck is awesome and playing against a hostile meta is very good for experience, but please try not to draw too many conclusions out of it concerning the "optimal" list. A hostile meta is a hostile meta, not a reason for suboptimal choices. Your optimal choice is probably to simply play Goblins or Jund in such a meta.

I asume you are talking about Cabal vs. Moxen in a meta which is heavily warped towards favoring the Belcher-mode?

[tescrin]

I can't tell you how many times I see players side in RiP, cage, ect. just because they have dead cards, or are just bad. D&T did it against me last night (running the mox build) and I was like, man I don't care.

As a non-storm player I don't see how having "you can't use the grave" cards to augment your actual storm hate is bad. If I discard half of your hand and you PiF then I die anyway. If I happen to have Cage/DRS while discarding your hand I've cut off the main ANT route to victory, and at least one BW route (IGG or PiF, depending on era.) I wouldn't keep a hand for just grave-hate, but having a Cage/Spellbomb instead of a Plow is pretty handy. Pyro-sideboards are covered by EtW hate making the side-out moot.

Nerfing Cabal Rit is a thing too IMO.

EDIT: It's worth noting that a non-trivial portion of the meta (especially with the constantly evolving lists) can't tell the difference between ANT or TES; making grave hate a safer bet.

[redhamjack]

Not to change the topic, but I was wondering if I could get an opinion on trying to cast spells thru a chalice at 1.

At my local tonight an opponent of mine resolved a chalice at 1 and seemed to forget about it, he tried at one point to resolve a top through it. I was fairly sure I could have end of turned ritual, ritual ad naus with out him stopping me. I didn't do it and lost g2 (won g3) but I was wondering about the ethics of this?

I know it's not technically cheating (they should know their cards, etc) but I would feel shitty winning this way. Has anyone had any experience with this? Any thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tom T]

Not to change the topic, but I was wondering if I could get an opinion on trying to cast spells thru a chalice at 1.

At my local tonight an opponent of mine resolved a chalice at 1 and seemed to forget about it, he tried at one point to resolve a top through it. I was fairly sure I could have end of turned ritual, ritual ad naus with out him stopping me. I didn't do it and lost g2 (won g3) but I was wondering about the ethics of this?

I know it's not technically cheating (they should know their cards, etc) but I would feel shitty winning this way. Has anyone had any experience with this? Any thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's their trigger so you're not responsible. Chalice doesn't imply you can't cast your spells. It says that when you do, they might get countered but you can still play them. I've resolved Brainstorm through Chalice@1 heaps of times :P. It's a little dick'y, but so is playing Chalice of the Void.

Also on beating Chalice@1;
Artifact mana and Empty are your friend.

Tom

[itrytostorm]

Not to change the topic, but I was wondering if I could get an opinion on trying to cast spells thru a chalice at 1.

At my local tonight an opponent of mine resolved a chalice at 1 and seemed to forget about it, he tried at one point to resolve a top through it. I was fairly sure I could have end of turned ritual, ritual ad naus with out him stopping me. I didn't do it and lost g2 (won g3) but I was wondering about the ethics of this?

I know it's not technically cheating (they should know their cards, etc) but I would feel shitty winning this way. Has anyone had any experience with this? Any thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some friends and I had this same discussion at eternal weekend when Steve Menedian played Musical Tutor through my friends Chalice on 1 to get Grudge. While he thinks it's a bad rule since a trigger is a trigger, you have to play to the rules.

The subject is tricky, but it's not like you're stacking a deck or marking sleeves.

[davelin]

Not to change the topic, but I was wondering if I could get an opinion on trying to cast spells thru a chalice at 1.

At my local tonight an opponent of mine resolved a chalice at 1 and seemed to forget about it, he tried at one point to resolve a top through it. I was fairly sure I could have end of turned ritual, ritual ad naus with out him stopping me. I didn't do it and lost g2 (won g3) but I was wondering about the ethics of this?

I know it's not technically cheating (they should know their cards, etc) but I would feel shitty winning this way. Has anyone had any experience with this? Any thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In my opinion context matters i.e. are we talking about a regular REL event like an FNM or something more competitive?