All B/R update speculation.

[Julian23]

One should mention that Zoo was already pretty much dead around ~GP Amsterdam 2011 because Maverick had completly taken over and Zoo really couldn't beat it. It's best matchup, Merfolk, also vanished at around the same time because it was also just not cutting it vs Maverick.

[Lemnear]

One should mention that Zoo was already pretty much dead around ~GP Amsterdam 2011 because Maverick had completly taken over and Zoo really couldn't beat it. It's best matchup, Merfolk, also vanished at around the same time because it was also just not cutting it vs Maverick.

Which was right before Delver, Griselbrand, Terminus and shit were even printed and Batterskull was a tech. Ergo, blaming Terminus and Co. for Zoo, Meerfolks, etc. demise is wrong

[Julian23]

Which was right before Delver, Griselbrand, Terminus and shit were even printed and Batterskull was a tech. Ergo, blaming Terminus and Co. for Zoo, Meerfolks, etc. demise is wrong

Batterskull was already around and surely contributed a lot to Maverick's success. But yeah, we're not seeing Zoo come back, that ship as sailed. Merfolk is surprising enough somewhat ok right now.

[Lemnear]

Batterskull was already around and surely contributed a lot to Maverick's success. But yeah, we're not seeing Zoo come back, that ship as sailed. Merfolk is surprising enough somewhat ok right now.

Given that I have looked up the results of that GP to verify that SFM was a two-off in Maverick to grab a Jitte or Sword, I have not seen a Batterskull in any of those lists. I can imagine the recent resurgence of Meerfolk is plain because of TNN.

[H]

I can imagine the recent resurgence of Meerfolk is plain because of TNN.

And Islandwalk?

[FoolofaTook]

Batterskull was already around and surely contributed a lot to Maverick's success. But yeah, we're not seeing Zoo come back, that ship as sailed. Merfolk is surprising enough somewhat ok right now.

Zoo is as much surprising ok as Merfolk is right now. Goblins is the same. So is Suicide Black and just about every other list that was once good.

The argument isn't about surprising ok, because anybody who has dusted off a 4 year old list and 4-0'd at an LGS weekly knows that on any given day a former DTB or nearly so can still 4-0 with the right matchups and draws.

The argument is about the single mechanism that is increasingly dominating the Legacy scene, that mechanism being using blue cantrips to sort out whatever pile you put together and make it better. Even the free counters aren't as warping on the meta as the fact that 8 to 12 high quality cantrips will find you just about anything you need when you need it and as the power of the things you are searching for expands so does the value of the cantrips.

Legacy is headed straight to Vintage land at this point. It's going to be about a half dozen core cards that are mostly played in sets, 4 to 6 of the core in each list depending on what it's trying to do, all searching for or protecting the most powerful, hard to interact with win-cons available.

Legacy is going to be worse than Vintage in the end except for the T1/T2 blowouts that the fast mana can create. That's because there are no restricted cards in Legacy and WotC will not make sensible ban decisions at this point to stop the devolution of the format into one shell powering several overwhelming strategies. So Brainstorm and Force of Will will be around as a 4-of in 80% of all lists in a few years and Ponder and Gitaxian Probe will be 4-of's in 50% of the lists, although not appearing together all the time and Delver of Secrets or [insert next broken win-con here] will each be in 30% of all lists although not appearing together often or at all and so-on and so-forth.

The thing that made Legacy appealing was that you could play with most of your cards and there was an explicit understanding that if the format devolved into just a few contending lists at any point that WotC was going to ban something to break that up and again make many of your cards playable.

That understanding has broken down now under two emerging trends.

First, WotC is doing silly things in the card pool, producing cards that really should not see the light of day given what we know about Magic after 20 years. This has cyclically moved Legacy towards a best cards list with a dominant set of cards that are appearing in too many lists and stifling innovation. The fact that the cards are often blue or easily splashed with blue is an aggravating factor also given what we know about Magic after 20 years.

Second, WotC has backed away from banning anything in Legacy after the dubious ban of Survival of the Fittest in late 2010. This has resulted in a Legacy meta that is now drawing from a very limited selection of power cards in order to create the best lists. There are 6 lists in the current DTB section of the source and all variants of 5 of them play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will. Most variants of 5 of them also include 4 Ponder.

This is the problem in a nutshell.

There are three ways WotC can go on the issue.

First, they could choose to do what they've done consistently for 4 plus years now and do nothing. This would be an admission on their part that Legacy is essentially a declining format that will receive no further moderation from them and will likely see dwindling attendance until it eventually becomes a small niche format like Vintage.

Second, they could choose to make some small changes to the structure that do not involve interacting directly with the primary problem of aggregate best cards lists. This would involve them banning a couple of particularly noxious win-cons that are both highly played and highly unpopular in the player base. Delver of Secrets would clearly be one of these and the other might well be Show and Tell. These bans would solve very little in the overall meta other than to essentially destroy two archetypes that people have trouble interacting with and thus hate on an epic scale.

Third, they could choose to ban several cards that enable lists to consistently find the numerous powerful cards available in the Legacy card pool at this point. Brainstorm and Ponder are the obvious choices. They could choose instead to ban Brainstorm and Force of Will to see if that shook up the blue shell enough to make it no longer the only good choice for competitive players. This type of approach would be better than a noxious win-cons approach because the sad fact at this late date is that there are many, many noxious win-cons available in the Legacy card pool. The ones that are annoying us right now are just the best of those, others will quickly take their place in the uber-consistency shell if the current noxious wins are removed.

My bet is on option one, which is unfortunate but clearly suggested by the recent approach to Legacy.

[Lemnear]

And Islandwalk?

Sure. I'd sign that.

[sjmcc13]

The fact that the cards are often blue or easily splashed with blue is an aggravating factor also given what we know about Magic after 20 years.

To be fair with the Duals and Fetches, anything with less than 3 colored mana symbols in its cost is easily splashed by any other color.

[tescrin]

Batterskull was already around and surely contributed a lot to Maverick's success. But yeah, we're not seeing Zoo come back, that ship as sailed. Merfolk is surprising enough somewhat ok right now.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-GP-New-Jersey
I feel like there are people making it work. There can't be very many people trying to run Zoo, so going 7-2 with it means it overperformed; I.E. it's not that bad and it's not a local.

[FoolofaTook]

To be fair with the Duals and Fetches, anything with less than 3 colored mana symbols in its cost is easily splashed by any other color.

Right, but how many blue cards are splashed for anything? How often do you see a blue card in a list in which the majority of non-lands are not blue?

People don't splash blue for counters, although there's no reason they couldn't with many counters that do significant things for just . People don't even splash blue for just Brainstorm and Ponder. ANT has enough blue in it that it could play 4 Force of Will if that worked.

[FoolofaTook]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-GP-New-Jersey
I feel like there are people making it work. There can't be very many people trying to run Zoo, so going 7-2 with it means it overperformed; I.E. it's not that bad and it's not a local.

Gibbon It to the Format was the reason I made my post in response to the notion that Merfolk was still viable.

[tescrin]

you want to tell me, that Omni, SneakShow, Storm, Foodchain, Bomberman, High Tide and Reanimator will just do fine without Brainstorm? Sorry, I stop here, because it's pointless to discuss the impact of the banning on combo decks with someone who has obviously not even a clue how those decks work, not to talk about experience piloting these.

I do get how they work; it's just:
-Reanimator would survive just fine with Loot effects. It already uses them and AFAICT, prefers them in any kind of non-garbage hand.
-SneakShow doesn't have to survive; it's combo halves are in other decks that work. It's just the optimal one at the moment. it doesn't matter if it dies because sneak attack lists exist outside of it, as do S&T lists. It's also dubious that it'd die when it can readily adopt Looting and it's threats go back into the library anyway.
-High Tide would adopt a different cantrip. It is not central to it's strategy..
-Bomberman may run blue, but the lists on the forum don't run Brainstorm. #getgood
-Food Chain is questionable, but I can't see why it wouldn't adopt. I've run many casual combo decks that work; and Aggro/Combo is the easiest to get moving since (just like NO RUG or Maverick Depths) they beat you down and sometimes accidentally just win. I do realize NO RUG ran BS to shuffle in Prog, but a looting effect would do the same thing. For example, Thopter-Sword combos are often a 3x2 side strategy rather than a 4x4 strategy the deck is devoted to.
-Storm, so long as it's running PiF/IGG, would survive fine on Looting effects

I don't understand why you post here relying completely on ad hominim and exaggeration. The above decks barely have to change to survive. They do become worst, but their worst matchups also become worse. Do you really think storm would die out just because it uses Igg/PiF loops next to Looting effects instead? The last few storm matches I had they used the grave to go off anyway (including TES.)

I don't get why you think combo would die when so many combo decks don't rely on brainstorm at the moment. Elves, Dredge, Bomberman, Painter, Rip-Helm decks (I've seen a DGA Rip Helm deck), Oops, etc. The diversity of combo is doing just fine. The diversity of creature strategies is hindered because of Miracles and Delver. There's no way you can argue that isn't the case.


Asides:
*I don't think Entreat would be bad without BS. It's mediocre to hardcast, but Miracles (even without Terminus) would have no issue Bolt/Plowing every dude until they setup the win, much as they do now; but they'd have a soft-spot for things like D&T where it's hard to 1-for-1 a deck with 26 dudes and occasional protection, (even with 4 Bolt/Plow/Snap.) I think that entreating for 2 (which you can do at 7 mana) is completely viable in a deck that runs you out of threats and slows the game down so much.

*"Fair" has always been used for creature heavy non-combo strategies. If you have a problem with the term, go away. If you're insulted by your deck being called unfair, laugh like a troll and beat the guy anyway. I don't see why a combo player gets to whine that a tongue-in-cheek reference to bad players whining exists. If anything you should find the term endearing/funny.

*It's worth noting that combo decks that could adopt looting effects would (except storm) also be able to more readily adopt Cruise to make up for the CD. Probe + Looting + Fetchland already brings Cruise to a 3-mana spell. This is hardly an idealized opener for such a deck; it's simply a little less sturdy than BS.

*I do understand how BS works; just because I normally play junk doesn't mean I can't/don't run blue. Almost every combo I've done in casual has had Faithless Looting for the exact same reasons Legacy combo runs BS. I've built dozens of combo decks EDIT: and I regularly practice against Reanimator, Storm, S&T, and Dredge.

In my ideal world, they would unban Frenzied Search if they banned BS; which would assist combo anyway while being mediocre for non-combo.

[rlesko]

stuff about looting effects

Um, theres a reason looting effects aren't played unless you specifically want something in the bin. Combo decks (sans reanimator) really don't want a card disadvantage filter.

[tescrin]

Um, theres a reason looting effects aren't played unless you specifically want something in the bin. Combo decks (sans reanimator) really don't want a card disadvantage filter.

Yes, treat me like an idiot as if I don't get it. I know they aren't played and it's because there's a near-strictly-better card => brainstorm. There wouldn't be a ban-brainstorm discussion had Faithless looting been "Draw 3, discard 2" or even "Draw 2, discard 1"; ad least I don't think the debate would be as hot.

The only other cards that do this in the game are looting effects or exceptionally bad cards. Decks that can utilize looting (Reanimator, Storm) would be fine with looting in BS's place assuming the decks were modfied a bit. Other decks would either:
-Not do it
-Run cruise/DTT

Besides, combo can get by with CD*; they aren't trading cards with you 1-for-1 or anything; they're searching for pieces. CD doesn't matter if you just win. The only decks I suggested Looting for, you'll note, make use of the grave. I do think, however, Sneakshow's current iteration could also do it.

*Almost every card in Storm is a CD card. S&T's entire game plan is CD. Reanimator's entire game plan is CD.

They will be worse decks; but relative to the field (which would also have been nerfed) they will be fine.

[sjmcc13]

Right, but how many blue cards are splashed for anything? How often do you see a blue card in a list in which the majority of non-lands are not blue?

you would be surprised. It is not common, but it is doable. though most people are either not splashing for blue because they can not afford the duals or the speed loss, or they go full blue because they want FoW+Daze to protect against fast combo decks (like Belcher) that can kill them before they have time to build resources. The fear of these glass cannons is probably a major part of the #'s for FoW+Daze, which pad the #'s of BS as well. On Modo something like 6.88 % of decks run BS but not FoW, the difference is something like 4.8% on MTGTop8.com

People don't even splash blue for just Brainstorm and Ponder. ANT has enough blue in it that it could play 4 Force of Will if that worked.

ANT has 16 or less blue cards in its main deck but Blue is its secondary color, not a splash. But it does run more black cards then blue cards. It is also a stratagey that relies on Cantrips to function properly.

If you only look at the well known and established decks, you will only see blue heavy decks, or non-blue decks. But that does not mean that there is no room to brew (and the format, ok competitive Magic, needs less followers who only copy decks and more innovators greating new designs), and every deck that realizes the game can go long needs to consider adding BS and Ponder. Elves does not need it, the duals do not work well with Price so Burn says no, Goblins already has Matron and ringleader for the same effect. I like MUD, my present build is completely colorless But I have been considering trying adding Blue for Transmute Artifact, and maybe BS + Ponder, would it be good? No idea but it might be worth tinkering with.

[ahg113]

My comment was more aimed at the bizarro attempt to favorably compare Modern's card selection/advantage variety with Legacy's.

To answer your question, I'm not certain if I want to, or don't want to, remove any of them. It's possible. Essentially, my three part solution (which could be done in different ways) is: a.) Blue not getting stuff it shouldn't have, like Delver and TNN b.) Other colors not getting shafted, especially on stack interaction and card selection (while still maintaining the color pie) c.) Make Brainstorm not completely without drawback, restrictions, or risk.

I'm against something idiotic and juvenile that nouveau R&D sharts out, like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand or True-Name Nemesis, ruining something interesting, like Brainstorm, Force of Will or Sneak Attack.

It's worth looking at the above poll from five years ago to be reminded that things will naturally swing back and forth, and cards that seem overpowered today will be fringe tomorrow, all without the need for a demolition.

So, with politeness, you respond, "Well, I don't really want to address the question as asked, so let's theory craft a three part (& change) answer." Thus, the argument returns back to banning brainstorm. I fully agree with a.), b.) & c.) devolves into Obligatory shitty card creation thread. A later thought is a distractionary topic as no one has recently called for the banning of Force of Will or Sneak Attack.

That poll from five years ago should be archived, with a new poll put in it's place. Building Olympic villages is a good thing right before and during the games, but are often horrendous ideas well after the games conclude; that is to say, timeliness matters, and observance of a vacuumed opinion does not always provide poignant insight.

[FoolofaTook]

you would be surprised. It is not common, but it is doable. though most people are either not splashing for blue because they can not afford the duals or the speed loss, or they go full blue because they want FoW+Daze to protect against fast combo decks (like Belcher) that can kill them before they have time to build resources. The fear of these glass cannons is probably a major part of the #'s for FoW+Daze, which pad the #'s of BS as well. On Modo something like 6.88 % of decks run BS but not FoW, the difference is something like 4.8% on MTGTop8.com

However it's not doable at the tournament competitive level or we'd see more lists splashing blue just for Brainstorm or Brainstorm + Ponder. This doesn't happen now.

People do splash Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares into blue lists but they don't splash Brainstorm and Ponder into white lists that feature Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares.

People do splash Lightning Bolt and Young Pyromancer (was Grim Lavamancer at one point) into blue lists but they don't splash Brainstorm and Ponder into red lists running Lightning Bolt and Young Pyromancer.

People do splash Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose (well, you get the idea) into blue lists but they don't splash Brainstorm and Ponder into green lists running Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose.

People do splash Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant into blue lists but nobody splashes Brainstorm and Ponder into black lists.

The point is that Legacy has become a blue format that aggregates the best cards in the other colors with the blue cantrip shell because you can't not do that and have the best chance to win. If the cantrip shell was weakened there is nothing that is currently playable that would not still be playable, if in a slightly changed form in many cases. If the cantrip shell was weakened many things that are not currently optimal would become playable again because although they're fine concepts and have access to real power cards they cannot compete with the consistency of the current blue shell.

That's what WotC should be looking to do. Every powerful blue spell that is printed at this point shunts more non-blue lists out of the competition because the shell is already overwhelmingly dominant against all but a handful of other card selection and advantage strategies. WotC should weaken the blue shell to allow other lists into the competition on a more even footing.

ANT has 16 or less blue cards in its main deck but Blue is its secondary color, not a splash. But it does run more black cards then blue cards. It is also a stratagey that relies on Cantrips to function properly.

I'm not arguing on this point. However ANT's consistency at finding it's wins early shoves dozens of other archetypes off of the top tables. It does this to almost all non-blue shell lists. Not because those lists aren't playing Force of Will but because they can't find the things they need to compete with ANT quickly enough to make a difference. ANT on the other hand has no problem at all finding a turn 2 to 4 win with the blue shell. It does this extremely consistently.

Weaken the shell and more archetypes can compete with ANT because they have the time they need to find answers. Because ANT doesn't have a locked win state against them due to it's ability to consistently find it's win by turn 4.

If you only look at the well known and established decks, you will only see blue heavy decks, or non-blue decks. But that does not mean that there is no room to brew (and the format, ok competitive Magic, needs less followers who only copy decks and more innovators greating new designs), and every deck that realizes the game can go long needs to consider adding BS and Ponder. Elves does not need it, the duals do not work well with Price so Burn says no, Goblins already has Matron and ringleader for the same effect. I like MUD, my present build is completely colorless But I have been considering trying adding Blue for Transmute Artifact, and maybe BS + Ponder, would it be good? No idea but it might be worth tinkering with.

There's only so much you can do in design when you're lacking the tools that a significant portion of the competition is using and those tools influence the most important elements of the game which are card selection and advantage. That's why in the absence of non-blue consistency tools that can be used immediately the blue shell will continue to be the better option.

[Kanti]

Blah blah blah. The banning of Brainstorm has been discussed ad nauseam. They won't ban it, and I'm happy they won't. People will have to continue to accept metagames where BS is in >50% of the decks. Hurrah.

For my own personal benefit I'd still like to see Frantic Search unbanned. Dig through Time and Search? Now that sounds like a deck.

[btm10]

People do splash Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant into blue lists but nobody splashes Brainstorm and Ponder into black lists.

Have you played Team America pre-Treasure Cruise or Shardless BUG ever? Those are pretty clearly BG decks that splash Blue for counters and library manipulation; Shardless in particular frequently has to leave Visions in even when it's suboptimal because it needs Blue cards to support Force of Will.

I'm not arguing on this point. However ANT's consistency at finding it's wins early shoves dozens of other archetypes off of the top tables. It does this to almost all non-blue shell lists. Not because those lists aren't playing Force of Will but because they can't find the things they need to compete with ANT quickly enough to make a difference. ANT on the other hand has no problem at all finding a turn 2 to 4 win with the blue shell. It does this extremely consistently.

Of all the combo decks keeping things out of the top tables, ANT is the least culpable. It's vulnerable to broad-based disruption like Sphere of Resistance and Thalia in addition to countermagic, unlike Sneak and Show or Reanimator that can go off by casting a single spell. If you're trying to play Legacy competitively, turn 4 is pretty late to have interaction against any opponent unless you're planning to win on turn 5. Nonblue decks can achive this interaction either through redundancy (like D&T) or their own draw or library manipulation.

[Lemnear]

- Stuff about Looting effects replacing cantrips -

I don't think we can asume that card selection which comes with card-disadvantage will ever find a place in those combo lists (Burning Reanimator aside) simply because the acceptable Looting-effects are limited to Careful Study & Faithless Looting and that the whole approach streamlines Storm and stuff into "graveyard-shenanigans" which is very one-dimensional to get hated out. You turn these decks into one-trick-pony's like Belcher except that these decks had their justification in the metagame, because they are NOT that easy to control. Storm has AN + PIF + spellchain, Reanimator the graveyard-Path + S&T. Moving to Looting-effects is harming their non-graveyard-traits and if you are left with a one-trick-pony in either case, there is no point, why you wouldn't choose Belcher-like decks instead.

That said, be asured that Storm would simply move to Preordain/Ponder/SDT post Brainstorm and streamline into Cabal Ritual builds to remain it's flexibility.