[Deck] Dredge

[gibbousm]

What are people's thoughts on running Iona in the main board as a dedicated Dread Return target?

She's brought out of the sideboard in a lot of different match ups, she's good vs both fair and unfair decks if you know what color to name and wins in 3 hits by herself. Flame-kin zealot, Flayer of the Hatebound, and other dedicated targets can win games on the spot, but you need to have more Bridges or extra DRs for them to be effective.

[Boatinater]

There will be hate. alot of decks cripple to specific brands of hate. bloodmoon vs most decks is basically game over. bummer to have faced that many lotv. I saw it once the whole weekend while playing vs Seth in a mirror match during a grinder. he mulled for it 3 times then dropped it g3 for the win.

if you blow them out g1 then try again g2 try not sbing. if they hate, then game 3 ,def try to add mana options and mull into at least one answer. the sb cards mess up the natural flow so slow dredge will be the plan.
in the tournament, i drew into this hand: looting, golgari troll, stinkweed imp, petal, breakthrough, led, mana confluence.
decided to keep on game 3. flipped half my deck only 2 therapies and no dr but hit 2 bridges. ended turn 1 with a modest 4 zombies and lots of potential. we were both suprised i couldnt finish. It was his day, or i should went for the planned sb strategy and ignored the temptation of the perfect hand.
he casts grafdiggers cage and I do nothing but attack. he plays dark rit and red for sneak attack emrakul.
if i kept a natures claim. maybe i could have blown the sneak attack or been able to ashen rider the emrakul.
can't win em all but its our game to lose.
maybe thought seize or unmask is our answer but sometimes we get caught just like everyone else.
we're still winning at 75%+ for most matches. mulling and sb takes practice.
run sideboarded match practice to get better.
goldfishing isnt good experience. imo
When starting to play legacy I was told that it takes 9 months to a year to know your deck. then experience will win your games.

Thanks for the response. It probably just will take time, and I think I would like to get proficient with the deck. I gravitate towards very fair decks and feel pretty proficient with midrange and tempo decks. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm trying to broaden my range, so I get and agree with the "it jut takes time" thing.

I have a couple things sleeved up for an SCG IQ tomorrow, and I may pull the trigger and try playing Dredge, so I'll try to keep some of your advice on mind if I do it. We'll see how it goes :-)

[ottofromorbit]

What are people's thoughts on running Iona in the main board as a dedicated Dread Return target?

She's brought out of the sideboard in a lot of different match ups, she's good vs both fair and unfair decks if you know what color to name and wins in 3 hits by herself. Flame-kin zealot, Flayer of the Hatebound, and other dedicated targets can win games on the spot, but you need to have more Bridges or extra DRs for them to be effective.

IMO
Iona I keep in side for green and red or decks that's have little or no permission and weak on hate.
It works vs storm calling black and good luck resolving dr vs any permission deck. Ichorids are usually the answer there. That slot is too selective.
Lands and affinity... Permission ...
I realize it shuts down alot but It just seems a gamble when ashen rider is a better choice to get a winning edge.

[Klazam]

RE: main iona

I ran it

it works

[Darklingske]

So, has anyone already played against Containment Priest? And if so, how did you fight it? I'm just curious to know if 3 Firestorms to Sb is enough to beat it.

[gibbousm]

Game 1 against an unknown opponent, if you have a hand of land, LED, draw spell, dredger how do you know if you should break the led and dump your hand in response to the draw spell?
Do you risk the FoW?

[Ziilot]

Game 1 against an unknown opponent, if you have a hand of land, LED, draw spell, dredger how do you know if you should break the led and dump your hand in response to the draw spell?
Do you risk the FoW?

I'd say go for it if you are on play. You get the dredgers to graveyard anyway. If you are on draw you can choose to DDD depending their first play.

[Darklingske]

That would depend on the rest of the hand. Are the remaining 3 cards lands? Or did you mulligan to 4? But in general I would risk it.

[Que]

Make them show you the Force

[Que]

Double Post? They're far enough apart. :U

I was just going to say that I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.

In previous iterations of my list I had completely eschewed playing Breakthrough in place of SW, however, I feel BT is just too powerful not to include especially in my version which runs no DR targets or the fancy Flayer kill. So here is the new list:

4x LED
4x Bridge from Below
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
2x Putrid Imp
3x Street Wraith

4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence
4x Cephalid Coliseum

The cards I took out to make space were 2 Putrid Imp, the 13th land, and the singleton DR I did have in my original 60. These are preference and anyone wanting to argue about them may just be splitting hairs. I don't think a couple of cards really make a huge difference when comparing lists especially when I'm replacing them with more gas/Live cards. The dread Return is awesome as it is versatile and its the most I might regret getting rid of, however, game 1 I hardly need it and its usually dead if my opener contains it. Because of this the 2 DR I have are in the SB. I've been cutting down on Putrid Imps, but as I've reiterated before I still think its what the deck wants at least as a Plan B so I still have a couple of them. He also allows for some sick setup plays with Cephalid Coliseum or bridges stranded in your hand and lets not forget he is a warm body to sac to Therapy/DR.

I have a couple of legacy tournaments coming up so will see

[Claymore1]

Any advise for a stock LEDless build (packing putrid and tribes), against Mox opal affinity packing main decked Arcbound Ravager, and relic sideboard?
I already run ancient grudge on SB but I was wondering if any tips main deck. Firestorm?

[indefinite.soul]

4x LED
4x Bridge from Below
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
2x Putrid Imp
3x Street Wraith

4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence
4x Cephalid Coliseum

Running a pretty similar list, not worth "splitting hairs", I would run this SB:

4 firestorm (death and taxes, elves, maverick, etc)
4 abrupt decay (all other decks you are not bringing firestorm)
3 city of brass (anytime I want decay)
2 ashen rider (2 to maximize chance in openning hand vs Show and Tell / Sneak Attack)
2 dread return (return rider)

[drinkard]

Any advise for a stock LEDless build (packing putrid and tribes), against Mox opal affinity packing main decked Arcbound Ravager, and relic sideboard?
I already run ancient grudge on SB but I was wondering if any tips main deck. Firestorm?

Leyline of the Void keeps Ravager from exiling your Bridge from Below. Pithing Needle, Grudge, Cabal Therapy are good for Relic. Alternatively not activating Phantasmagorian is good against Relic, so you can begin to discard and dredge again.

[Michael Keller]

Leyline of the Void keeps Ravager from exiling your Bridge from Below. Pithing Needle, Grudge, Cabal Therapy are good for Relic. Alternatively not activating Phantasmagorian is good against Relic, so you can begin to discard and dredge again.

Leyline of the Void only hits opponents' graveyards, not your own.

[Holly]

Leyline of the Void only hits opponents' graveyards, not your own.

That's why he said LotV helps against the Affinity-player sacrificing creatures to the Ravager to remove Bridges.

[mewanyk]

Double Post? They're far enough apart. :U

I was just going to say that I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.

So I had a question. I completely understand your reasoning for the inclusion of street wraith and I think it's a great addition, and I can see how it could help to get dredgers out of harms way in many situations. Especially post board. However, I was just wondering if you had actually tested Gitaxian Probe in this spot? I would be curious to know how it turned out. I would think the information you would get along with a free draw to potentially dredge would be very strong. Especially after boarding in game 2, you could know their exact hate immediately.

Since everyone runs different hate its hard to Therapy when they could be running, Relic, Cage, Crypt, etc. this could make a clutch turn 1 Therapy. To me that seems more than enough to justify at least trying it out. Even in game 1 it can be really useful when you have an explosive hand capable of dumping most of your deck into the GY, but you're not sure if he has force or daze. This can help you know when would be the best opportunity to pull the trigger. Just a thought, but I'd like to know what you think of this as well.

[Jankwolf]

So I had a question. I completely understand your reasoning for the inclusion of street wraith and I think it's a great addition, and I can see how it could help to get dredgers out of harms way in many situations. Especially post board. However, I was just wondering if you had actually tested Gitaxian Probe in this spot? I would be curious to know how it turned out. I would think the information you would get along with a free draw to potentially dredge would be very strong. Especially after boarding in game 2, you could know their exact hate immediately.

Since everyone runs different hate its hard to Therapy when they could be running, Relic, Cage, Crypt, etc. this could make a clutch turn 1 Therapy. To me that seems more than enough to justify at least trying it out. Even in game 1 it can be really useful when you have an explosive hand capable of dumping most of your deck into the GY, but you're not sure if he has force or daze. This can help you know when would be the best opportunity to pull the trigger. Just a thought, but I'd like to know what you think of this as well.

How much life loss do you find acceptable? I refuse to use SW or GP for the life loss aspect. That and I rarely find a situation where I can't power through a DRS. As far as the Therapy comment, you should roll game 1's really easily and have more than enough information to know what decks bring in different kinds of hate. Abrupt decay handles everything other than LotV which is rarely run. If you keep a proper hand you should be able to recover off of a spell getting countered with no trouble at all.

[mewanyk]

How much life loss do you find acceptable? I refuse to use SW or GP for the life loss aspect. That and I rarely find a situation where I can't power through a DRS. As far as the Therapy comment, you should roll game 1's really easily and have more than enough information to know what decks bring in different kinds of hate. Abrupt decay handles everything other than LotV which is rarely run. If you keep a proper hand you should be able to recover off of a spell getting countered with no trouble at all.

Well game 1 isn't really an issue, I just thought it would help in game 2. Yea you are right that Abrupt Decay deals with everything quite well, I just always saw GP as free information. It lets you know what your opponent kept and what you are up against for that particular game, and how you can play around it if you need to. Maybe I'm overestimating if GP has value here.

[Ozymandias]

I've been having success recently with a playset of Unmasks in the main deck, and I've been wanting to get a DR back in to go along with them--It can actually speed your clock up by a whole turn even in the non-combo builds.

Also, I always found the problem with Street Wraith is that it's just a blank on its own. Even Breakthrough (which I'm down to 3 MD) at least does something cast for X=0.

[Que]

I will admit I have not tested with Probes as much. In your scenario having them main deck wouldn't really let you know what kind of hate you'll be facing Game 2, because things like Relic, Cage, and crypt etc.. are usually not main deck. Now if you wanted to put Probes in your board I can definitely see that argument working out better. And we've seen this done before at GP Washinton D.C. with Drew Tunison running 4 in his sb in the Top 8.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with Jankwolf's opinion on SW and Probe as far as the life loss issue is concerned. But in any case I'll go ahead and echo the rest of his sentiments, because I feel the same:

I rarely find a situation where I can't power through a DRS. As far as the Therapy comment, you should roll game 1's really easily and have more than enough information to know what decks bring in different kinds of hate. Abrupt decay handles everything other than LotV which is rarely run. If you keep a proper hand you should be able to recover off of a spell getting countered with no trouble at all.

@Ozy. Sup Caleb. Hows it been going?
Actually I would be interested to see what your current maindeck looks like. I don't think I've ever given Unmask a shake in the main. Sounds pretty good if you can fire it off turn 1 and follow it up with a Therapy haha. The only potential problem I see is having to get rid of another useful black card currently in your hand like Bridges, Ichorids, and Therapys, dredgers etc. because those all seem like things we need. And yeah SW on its own isn't the nutter butters (just a cycle), but it excels in all the scenarios I've mentioned in my previous post. Usually the plan is not to simply fire off a SW for a simple card draw, but rather after there has been some kind of setup. Though I guess that's obvious. lol