I had the classic Daze/Peirce play/draw package, then i replaced the Spell Peirce with Flusterstorm shortly after it came out. They still come in on the play if I'm expecting the need for counter magic. If I'm not expecting a need for anything beyond a well placed Force, then Duress or Abrupt Decay come in for Daze.
You don't need counter magic in the side, but if you're not going fast, then Daze gets bad fast.
Originally Posted by GreatWhale
I've been messing around with the Abrupt Decay plan and been liking it so far. However the manabase is way too greedy for me to be comfortable with it and considering going to the engineered explosives plan so I can run two basics.
Abrupt Decay lets me answer almost all hate cards except for leyline of the void but has an incredibly fragile manabase and is bumping me to 16 lands. I've never really played with Engineered Explosives, does it go around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance decently?
I run 15 lands with 8 fetch and a basic swamp and it has been totally fine for ad. I like ad more as you can cast it turn two, but you don't want to be too land light with ee either because you need 3+ obviously to play around chalice and countertop.
hi everyone, (sry for my bad english ...)
it's been a long time i look at this very intressant thread and i've a little problem. maybe you could help me.
my list : 60+15
15 land:
4 US
1 bayou
1 trop island
2 basic (U and B)
7 fetch (U/B/g)
7 creatures:
3 grisel
1 elesh
1 iona
1 sphinx
1 ashen rider
the rest :
3 Lotus petal
4 Fow
4 daze
4 BS
4 ponder
2 thoughtseize
4 entomb
4 carefull studies
4 reanimate
4 exhume
1 animate dead
the side:
3 A. decay
1 archangel (for R MU)
3 needle
2 echoing truth
2 massacre
2 surgical extraction
2 duress
li'l explanations :
18 mana : 15 + 3 petal. no problem of acces to G for side even with the basics.
creatures : 3 grisel is enough to put in the sphinx (my meta is plenty of G deck like junk and BUG with lots of UR delver and RDW splash U for treasure cruise). The discussion could be on the sphinx vs archangel or [pro R/G and lifelink] vs [shroud and redirect damage]. In top 8 you generally have : miracle and DnT (1 or 2 in the room for a tournament with +- 80 players), with UR delver and a BUG. The rest is changing : merfolk/mud/elves/Jund ...
ashen rider is here to kill the karakas/bridge.
the rest :
8 counters
8 grave way
9 reanimate
2 discard
and 8 cantrips.
I think the list is good but i'm open to the discussion.
my sideboard need lots of work !
i agree with decay that's really good against lots of things but my problem is the in/out ...
the base idea:
decay vs W deck (with RIP)
needle vs karakas/DRS/relic/tormod/...
massacre vs hatebear (thalia, ...) but it's a ritual. (i m thinking at the priest)
echoing truth vs leyline
archangel for R deck but sphinx is not too bad ...
duress vs U deck
surgical vs U deck : i like surgical FOW before comboting
vs miracle i need to enter decay (vs RIP) and needle (vs karakas) but what do i have to out ?, the same versus DnT.
vs BUG i need needle for DRS and duress for surgical/extirpate ...
generally i cut the counters for aggro deck, that makes 4/8 slots for side-in but the other MU ... i don't see what to cut. any help here ?
NB: i don't like the show n tell plan, i play this lots of time and i really don't like it! I prefer combo fast with disruption or searching solutions for it.
Hello everyone, I have a small report from my locals. 16 people in Houston
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Ashen Rider
1 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decays
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Massacre
1 Echoing Truth
1 Atherling
Round 1 (2-0) U/R Delver
Game 1 I keep a strong hand, 2 lands, can trips, petal and most of the combo, just needed a reanimation spell. I start off with a fetch for an underground sea, (usually if I have two lands in my hand im not to worried about wasteland) and I find a reanimate/daze/land, I draw the daze. next turn I am able to get a grislebrand out and the game is over.
Game 2 I side in the Decay package, taking out my dazes on the draw which seems incorrect now that I think about it. Anyway, I have a strong hand, FOW with a blue card, entomb/reanimate, lotus petal and a fattie but no land. I decided to keep since on the off chance I don't draw land I get discard my grislebrand and louts petal into reanimate. Luckily for me I am able to draw a land for my turn and reanimate a grislebrand fow'ing his fow.
Round 2 (2-0) UWR Stoneblade.
Game 1 I am able to play the long game thanks to a good thoughtseize after my opponent mulled to 6, eventually sculpted a hand with he had nothing going.
Game 2 was a really good game. I put in the decays and massacres, shaving some can trips (careful studies), and preparing myself for a more grindy game. I keep a decent hand, a lot of can trips and a decay, he keeps his 7 and starts out with a ponder, I mimic his play and he plays land go. H eventually plays a pyromancer and starts making tokens, while I can only dig. I am able to find a massacre off a ponder but I decide that I have to get greedy to be able to win this game. Luckily for me my opponent plays a second pyromancer, which makes the massacre even more insane. He decides not to fight over it which I think might have been his demise. We are both playing land go while I sit on two decays, he ironically draws meddling mage back to back which I am able to decay both. (He knew about the Decays but named exhume on the mage anyway, this seems incorrect to me, isn't it better to just provide a clock?) he has a bout 10 lands to my 7 and I eventually get the exhume and am able to pull it out with grislebrand beats.
Round 3 (2-1) Burn
Game I know what hes on and I know what hand I am looking for. I keep a good hand, but its not the type of hand I want for the matchup, I end up thoughtsezing myself and then reanimating grislebrand brand dropping to 6 life. He goes for the kill with double bolt on his turn and daze wins me the game.
Game 2 I on the draw and Iona is my hand with reanimate. He plays a lavamancer down, and I draw for my turn and discard Iona. Sadly for me he drops a relic and the game is pretty much over from there.
Game 3 I have a turn two Iona and he has no hate.
I feel like this is such a good matchup that I have zero things to board, maybe siding in decays would help but I didn't want to delude the deck at all.
Round 4 (0-2) MUD
I'm in top 4 and decided to play to see what hes on.
Game 1 He turn ones a Chalice, and it eats my Fow. I have the two grislebrand but I have to thoughtseize myself revealing a reanimate. He slams another chalice on one. i decided to go for it in hopes that he forget the trigger but it is countered and I am dead.
I side in decays and the bounce effects.
Game 2 he is able to resolve a turn on chalice, and then a turn two chalice. With both being at 1 and 2 I am pretty much locked out. I was able to get a fattie into the graveyard and I had a decay, he was beating me down with metal workers, and at 12 life i decided to decay chalice on two since i have 5 reanimation spells that cost two, and only 4 that cost one, I top deck a reanimate and die. My friend told me I should have been more patient anf that it was the worse game of magic he had ever seen me play, and hes right. I threw that game but it was a good learning experience.
TOP 4
Storm (2-1)
Game 1 I have a turn two Iona through discard effect. I had a petal and a land so I would be able to exhume her turn two, but a duress took out the petal and I was dead the next turn.
I assume my opponent is a bit newer to storm since the amount of time he took killing me, he could have easily PiF me but when the ANT route which is just wrong. I side in my duress and pierce's.
Game 2 I am able to reanimate a grislebrand after being able to hold up a spell pierce with a petal, he later died to the 7/7 demon.
Game 3 I was on the draw and I didn't really know what to take out for this match up, I am very inexperienced with the deck and this was my first tournament playing it since I built it. We both keep and he leads off with a ponder, and shuffle! I play a land go, I have pierce and fow both up so im feeling safe. He ponders again and then brainstorms and passes. I draw and go to my discard and drop a grislebrand in the yard. My opponent tanks for about 5 minutes thinking about how he should play around the grislebrand. I had an entomb in my hand, and my whole trick was to make him think he was going to have to deal with a grislebrand but not a sire of insanity. He decides not to go for it and an entomb followed up with an reanimate on the Sire forces the hand shake.
I split the finals with the MUD player
Overall I really liked the deck, it is very powerful and has good game against most decks. I was lucky enough to not run in any karakas. I like the board plan with decays a lot.
I do feel like I made a good amount of mistakes and I actually had no clue how to board but I just need to jam more games.
Because I am insane and like testing new things, I have been trying a Keranos in my board. Before you go off and tell me how crazy it is, think about this:
1) It draws cards or bolts threats every turn, letting you combo again more easily.
2) It is almost as hard to kill as Aetherling, dying essentially only to council's judgment.
3) If you don't have 7 U/R devotion (lol) you can reanimate it through containment priest (or so the head judge at the SCG told me after double checking himself).
Clearly Keranos is not the best creature to get in a lot of situations (in addition to the obvious, you cannot use animate dead on it to much effect), but having access to one to entomb for seems like a big advantage if containment priest is the card you are playing around, plus a lot of the decks that play the priest have a few problems with infinite bolts on their dudes (or to their face).
Having only played it in two events, the scg in seattle which I got smashed in (not due to keranos, but bad pairings and the opponents always having everything) and a weekly, I am not 100% sold, but it has been very good so far. Just the next piece of technology I am willing to throw out there for anyone interested in trying new things.
Last edited by Stryfo; 12-17-2014 at 02:03 PM.
What match-ups do you need help with boarding? I see you noted Miracle and Bug, IMO our two worst match-ups (also DnT), so I'll address those.
Since these are some tough match-ups, this is where I typically SB the most in/out. Working off your list:
Miracles: IN: 3 AD, 3 Needle, 1 Empyrial Archangel, +1-2 Duress (Maybe)
OUT: -1 Ponder, -1 Careful Study, -1 Elesh Norn, -1 Animate Dead, -4 Daze (on the draw), -3 Thoughtseize (on the play)
BUG Delver: IN: +3 Needle, +3 Decay, +1 Aarchangel, Maybe duress
OUT: -4 Daze (on the draw), -3 Thoughtseize (on the play), -1 Careful Study, -1 Ponder, -1 Iona
I only run two SB pithing needle and that works for me, but if you have 3 I think these are two match-ups to jam them all in.
What match-ups do you think Keranos improves over our current creature options? What did you take out for him?
What is your current creature suite (unkown meta) Stryfo?
Keranos improves containment priest matchups, it allows you to go for a turn two creature on the draw that helps set up for a second creature in the future. Because it is hard to remove and can clear the board, it can sometimes win the game on it's own if you can sit behind counters for the relevant spells. I removed Aetherling because he is weak against the priest and because keranos fills a similar role while simutaneously adding utility, playing around a popular hate card by itself.
The point of Keranos is NOT that he is more powerful than any creature against DnT or UWR, that honor goes to other creatures. But he does have the advantage of playing around containment priest and getting you to the point of the game where you can stick another creature by wearing down opposing resources because of his near invulnerability. Also, most people will (I Think!) try to get your Keranos with their priest, and then next turn you get to bolt their hate card.
My current creature suite is:
Main:
3 Gris
1 Jin
1 Tidespout
1 Elesh
1 Inkwell
Side:
1 Iona
1 Keranos
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
As an aside, my 75 is ALWAYS built as if I'm going to an unknown meta, that's how I like to practice.
Interesting. Although slow, I think it should be close to GG against miracles. It definitely seems worth testing. I'll try to jam some rounds with it as well.
Does it get around graffdigger's cage?
No, unfortunately it does not get around the cage.
This is what I don't get. So Keranos can get around containment priest but grafdigger's cage still hits it. I would think both or none of those effects hit Keranos without devotion.
Containment priest says:
"If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead."
If you don't have 7 or more UR devotion, keranos doesn't enter as a creature, therefore the priest can never see keranos because a creature wouldn't enter the battlefield.
Grafdigger's Cage says:
"Creature cards can't enter the battlefield from graveyards or libraries. Players can't cast cards in graveyards or libraries."
Keranos is still a creature card, and cage checks before it comes in, so cage prevents Keranos from entering the battlefield.
I'm having a problem sideboarding, i can not figure out what to board out for what for pieces of hate, does anybody have suggestions to help me get back on the right track?
example, 3 abrupt decay in, 3 daze out for cages? or just a philosophy of sideboarding for this deck, its the only part that kills me lol
It really depends on your configuration and SB, but without looking at specifics I can give you a few tips.I'm having a problem sideboarding, i can not figure out what to board out for what for pieces of hate, does anybody have suggestions to help me get back on the right track?
example, 3 abrupt decay in, 3 daze out for cages? or just a philosophy of sideboarding for this deck, its the only part that kills me lol
Always trade out a SB Fatty for a MB fatty, unless you think you want to up your creature count for SnT, but I don't think this is necessary. Pack at least 1 toolbox fatty in the SB (mine is Ashen Rider).
If you bring in SnT, I usually cut at least 1 careful study, sometimes 2 if "im boarding in a lot (BUG Delver). I do this because of the antisynergy between CS and SnT. Other than that, take out whatever reanimation effect is weakest (reanimate against bolt decks and deathrite decks, exhume against slower decks (miracles). Make sure to side out your SnT in the mirror, and against Sneak and Show/ Omnitell Decks. Note: A lot of people are coming to the conclusion that SnT is not necessary in the current meta. It was much more useful when Miracles and Bug and Jund were EVERYWHERE. I run 3 in the board, no maindeck
If you bring in City of Traitors along with show and tell, people usually cut a combination of fetches and maybe 1 lotus petal (if you have 4).
Have pithing needle. It is great. I run 2 in the SB, some people have 3. Use it against DRS decks, miracles, and karakas decks.
Try out abrupt decay. I think people are still divided on this, but test it out and see if it feels well within your playstyle. I like 3, some people have 4, but I opted for 1 K Grip as well (hits leyline, and wrecks miracles).
Usually, you are taking out 3 Daze on the play, and 3 thougthsieze on the draw. Obviously, this is not always the case and can be matchup specific. Example, I'm always taking out thoughtseize against burn. I haven't decided on the best configuration for UR Delver either, if anyone else wants to chime in. (I'm thinking it is correct to take thoughtseize out and leave daze in in both scenarios)
Other than that, I usually take out some combination of daze/ thoughtseize, 1 (rarely 2) ponder, 1 (rarely 2) careful study, sometimes 1 reanimation effect (e.g. animate dead vs. BUG), swap fatty's.
The key is not dilute the deck too much, and to feel comfortable with your configuration. 5 slots is usually enough for me.
On another note, I was thinking of taking out my 9th reanimate (animate dead) and replacing it with Lim-Dul's Vault as a means to search for the missing piece, as well as find the relevant hate if needed. Anyone try this out recently?
How can I upvote cogitoergosum's comment on sideboarding fatties... too many sideboards I see have no alternative targets, which is heresy considering how many games we win on the back of our silver bullets. We can bring any poison to the table we choose, it's worth thinking about.
I was going to type something about RIP and Show and Tell, but it now feels dated. I will still say that exchanging Show and Tell for Careful Study 1-for-1 is fine since they both get a fatty out of your hand. Personally I'm nowhere near Show and Tell anymore, and I think the all-removal plan is where we want to be.
Thoughtseize does seem bad against straight U/R Delver. Daze doesn't seem great either, but I wouldn't cut it arbitrarily. You can shave combo pieces, but always always feel the pain when you do because that will keep you from overboarding. Our spells are just naturally awesome, so don't water it down with reactive garbage. We can still race like a fiend postboard when necessary.
@cogitoergosum
I've been trying out Vault as well, and I can't see any reason U/B Reanimator isn't running it. Had a couple of copies in my childhood collection, and I can't believe how strong the card is. Let me pay some life to stack the top 5 cards...
As many may recall Reanimator was an absolute powerhouse when Mystical Tutor was still legal. Vampiric Tutor would be the same but probably far better, and Lim-Dul's Vault is essentially a 2-mana Vampiric Tutor. People go ga-ga for digging 7 cards deep with DTT, but how's 15-20 cards for the low cost of 2-3 life? Deeper if necessary, you literally cannot brick with Vault. The card disadvantage hardly matters since you can stack it with a Brainstorm or Careful Study and get the gas in-hand immediately when you untap. It's great postboard too.
I think the primary deterrent for people is that it takes until turn 3 to go off through Vault when we can consistently combo by turn 2. Which is understandable, but I would stress to those concerned that we are not a goldfish deck.
I've gone back and forth with Lim-Dul's Vault. In the end, the fact that it doesn't cantrip always ends up deciding it for me. For every game where I get a golden EOT pile into Brainstorm into win, I'd get 2 games where I was a turn slow or didn't have enough mana. Granted last time I rode that bus was a while ago, and any testing is good testing, so I support anybody willing to bring back findings.
The deck was a powerhouse in Mystical Tutor days, but that was based as much on the other decks available as it was Reanimator itself. Sure we'd get a major boost if she came back, but I doubt we'd return to those godly days in this meta.
My inclination is that LDV would be great in a slower local meta, but that the amount of UR around means LDV might be a little slow at the moment. I'm going to be testing some things in that 9th reanimation slot, though, so I'll let everyone know if something works out :)
Agree with that, the fair decks are quite well-refined. Vault is still clearly inferior to its 1-mana counterparts, but playing with it gave me a taste of the power level. Tin Fins also runs Vault, though they don't max out on Reanimate and are a lot faster. I would not run many but the first 2 for me have been excellent.
To be honest when it came to Lim Dul's Vault in Tin Fins, I usually shoved it in a Chrome Mox for mana. For Reanimator the lack of a cantrip really hurts the card. In terms of speeding up the combo more I'm not sure how we can do it other than packing more one shot mana sources like Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual does have the ability to power turn 1 combos...provided you have the cards in hand which I imagine why no one uses it really. Personal Tutor sadly is sorcery speed.
Seeing Gemstone Caverns in some Players Championship lists.
Maybe I'm behind the times, but this is new to me. Anyone go this route that can explain why? Just extra speed on the draw?
If you don't have it in your opening hand or are on the play, it seems awful, as so many of our spells use U or B, not colorless.
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