All B/R update speculation.

[tescrin]

I think of everyone here, Lemnear is the least likely to feign ignorance of what Brainstorm can do that other cantrips can't. Even putting aside his (compelling) argument that the collateral damage to a Brainstorm ban is unacceptable, the fact that it won't even accomplish its desired goal of improving the relative positioning of nonblue decks pretty much invalidates arguments for a ban. The other factors that drive people to favor blue - not simply rolling over to combo most prominent among them - are still going to be present without Brainstorm, and decks running cantrips+Treasure Cruise are still going to be the most consistent decks. Brainstorm isn't the sine qua non or blue being the best color in Eternal formats; blue being at the top of the pile is an unavoidable consequence of the game's history.

Again, i'm merely proposing that his argument is wrong, not that brainstorm should be banned. His argument seems to be:
"If you ban brainstorm it will simply be replaced by another cantrip and will not effect the decks much"

But we know that's not true because it buffs discard against blue decks and nerfs all blue decks my some amount.

Similarly your argument: "the fact that it won't even accomplish its desired goal of improving the relative positioning of nonblue decks pretty much invalidates arguments for a ban." is not true at all. If you nerf blue decks in general then by a consequence non-blue decks WILL *unarguably* be better positioned.

That's akin to saying that if you remove Tarmogoyf, green will not be worse. Of course it will! But the format would adopt the next most efficient beater, either swapping colors of decks or some such; but we know that the next beater in line is miles worse either due to splash, harder casting reqs, or what have you. The decks will still work, but Goyf decks would be significantly nerfed.

To argue anything but is simply to be wrong. You cannot ban a blue card that is ubiquitous and then claim that non-blue decks would not do better. The amount is arguable, but you don't have a leg to stand on.

[btm10]

Again, i'm merely proposing that his argument is wrong, not that brainstorm should be banned. His argument seems to be:
"If you ban brainstorm it will simply be replaced by another cantrip and will not effect the decks much"

But we know that's not true because it buffs discard against blue decks and nerfs all blue decks my some amount.

Everyone needs to stop pretending that discard is somehow fundamentally bad against decks with Brainstorm. Seriously. It's getting pretty old. The reason that we've seen less discard since Khans got printed is because of Treasure Cruise. It's not like BGx decks weren't at the top of the pre-Khans meta, or that Hymn wasn't a staple of BUG and Jund.

Lemnear has never suggested that being forced to replace Brainstorm with Preordain wouldn't affect combo or Miracles - in fact he's said quite the opposite. But combo is hardly anyone's target here, and Miracles would just be replaced by a different UW Control deck, or worse, by a UW Blade deck.

Similarly your argument: "the fact that it won't even accomplish its desired goal of improving the relative positioning of nonblue decks pretty much invalidates arguments for a ban." is not true at all. If you nerf blue decks in general then by a consequence non-blue decks WILL *unarguably* be better positioned.

Banning Brainstorm wouldn't substantially nerf non-combo, non-Miracles blue decks unless Treasure Cruise is also banned. Ponder + Preordain would still be the best consistency engine going, and it's not sufficiently weaker than Ponder + Brainstorm in the context of non-Miracles, non-combo decks for the improvement in the relative standing of non-blue decks to be perceptible. So my argument is only not true in the sense that the gap between blue and non-blue shrinks in some idealized hierarchy of decks, not in that any you'd see any observable effect. Sorry for confining my argument to the realm of the verifiable.

[FoolofaTook]

Banning Brainstorm wouldn't substantially nerf non-combo, non-Miracles blue decks unless Treasure Cruise is also banned. Ponder + Preordain would still be the best consistency engine going, and it's not sufficiently weaker than Ponder + Brainstorm in the context of non-Miracles, non-combo decks for the improvement in the relative standing of non-blue decks to be perceptible. So my argument is only not true in the sense that the gap between blue and non-blue shrinks in some idealized hierarchy of decks, not in that any you'd see any observable effect. Sorry for confining my argument to the realm of the verifiable.

You're out of your mind when you make the statement that banning Brainstorm wouldn't substantially nerf non-combo, non-Miracles lists. Brainstorm is a fixer par extraordinaire of flawed draws that would be a toss back due to too many redundant cards or not enough land or too much land or whatever. It's a fixer for "wanna have 4 of this in my list but if I draw 2 in my opening hand I'm not very happy and if I draw 3 it's a mull". It's a fixer for "man, this is a god draw as long as [insert card here] doesn't get taken by discard by turn 3 when I want to win with it."

Just nerfing combo enough to allow non-blue lists to compete would weaken the blue shell because a lot of the lists combo is sitting on hard really hate on blue. Blue control and aggro control in turn sit on a few lists that combo doesn't want to see. The two strategies, blue shell combo and blue shell control and aggro control effectively sit on the entire metagame and invalidate most non-blue strategies.

This is so obvious at this point that it's hard to give credence to the people arguing that it's not the case.

[Lemnear]

Again, i'm merely proposing that his argument is wrong, not that brainstorm should be banned. His argument seems to be:
"If you ban brainstorm it will simply be replaced by another cantrip and will not effect the decks much"

But we know that's not true because it buffs discard against blue decks and nerfs all blue decks my some amount.

Similarly your argument: "the fact that it won't even accomplish its desired goal of improving the relative positioning of nonblue decks pretty much invalidates arguments for a ban." is not true at all. If you nerf blue decks in general then by a consequence non-blue decks WILL *unarguably* be better positioned.

That's akin to saying that if you remove Tarmogoyf, green will not be worse. Of course it will! But the format would adopt the next most efficient beater, either swapping colors of decks or some such; but we know that the next beater in line is miles worse either due to splash, harder casting reqs, or what have you. The decks will still work, but Goyf decks would be significantly nerfed.

To argue anything but is simply to be wrong. You cannot ban a blue card that is ubiquitous and then claim that non-blue decks would not do better. The amount is arguable, but you don't have a leg to stand on.

Seriously, the first Brainstorm is used in more than 80% of cases at sorcery speed during their controllers turn 2 to fix their hand and the defensive Brainstorm against Discard is mainly a mechanism of combo decks as control & Tempo either can afford to ignore the discard or have Spell Pierce/Daze/FoW to protect their threats in hand. In my books this is not really adressing the 40% of Delver/SFM/TNN decks we have in the format right now and ergo pointless to weaken the position of these decks. You act as if blue can't run Discard itself to counteract and discard Jund's threats while Dazing opposing discard. That idea of "but discard would be better against blue" is flawed if you take storm as an example which loves to discard opposing Thoughtseizes or Hymns

So you wanna nerf blue? So what? Didn't we state that blue card selection (in general) is several miles ahead of other colors ability to reduce variance? What is a nerf worth if Ponder/Preordain/SDT still remain a few miles ahead of stuff like Sylvan Library? Does this suddenly make Library a top choice? No, it remains inferior and that is the whole reason the whole "non-blue will be better positioned" is bullshit. Tournament players give a fuck if the blue cantrip shell performs 60% better or 40% better than non-blue ones. The pick the better one, no matter what.

What you can't comprehend is that the nerf of blue by banning brainstorm is uneven among archetypes and will result into even more streamlining of blue decks aka reducing diversity, but has absolutely no effect on the playability of inferior strategies and cards

I think of everyone here, Lemnear is the least likely to feign ignorance of what Brainstorm can do that other cantrips can't. Even putting aside his (compelling) argument that the collateral damage to a Brainstorm ban is unacceptable, the fact that it won't even accomplish its desired goal of improving the relative positioning of nonblue decks pretty much invalidates arguments for a ban. The other factors that drive people to favor blue - not simply rolling over to combo most prominent among them - are still going to be present without Brainstorm, and decks running cantrips+Treasure Cruise are still going to be the most consistent decks. Brainstorm isn't the sine qua non or blue being the best color in Eternal formats; blue being at the top of the pile is an unavoidable consequence of the game's history.

I'm honestly grateful for everyone, who is willing to keep an eye on the bigger picture of dynamic interconnection within the Legacy format and history.

P.S.: At some point I have the impression people want to sell me that Nacatl is better against SFM/TNN if the Blade deck doesn't use Brainstorm to dig for SFM/TNN but have to use Preordain.

[maharis]

You're out of your mind when you make the statement that banning Brainstorm wouldn't substantially nerf non-combo, non-Miracles lists. Brainstorm is a fixer par extraordinaire of flawed draws that would be a toss back due to too many redundant cards or not enough land or too much land or whatever. It's a fixer for "wanna have 4 of this in my list but if I draw 2 in my opening hand I'm not very happy and if I draw 3 it's a mull". It's a fixer for "man, this is a god draw as long as [insert card here] doesn't get taken by discard by turn 3 when I want to win with it." Just nerfing combo enough to allow non-blue lists to compete would weaken the blue shell because a lot of the lists combo is sitting on hard really hate on blue. Blue control and aggro control in turn sit on a few lists that combo doesn't want to see. The two strategies, blue shell combo and blue shell control and aggro control effectively sit on the entire metagame and invalidate most non-blue strategies. This is so obvious at this point that it's hard to give credence to the people arguing that it's not the case.

I agree. People should take their delver list of choice and test it with Preordain over Brainstorm. It really isn't close. Granted I've only tried UR but it was pretty rough. You get flooded or hands with 2 cruises or can't flip a Delver much more than you're used to.

[Lemnear]

I agree. People should take their delver list of choice and test it with Preordain over Brainstorm. It really isn't close. Granted I've only tried UR but it was pretty rough. You get flooded or hands with 2 cruises or can't flip a Delver much more than you're used to.

This is idiotic. Take a Deathblade list with Discard + FoW and replace the Brainstorm wirh Preordain and the decks still runs fluid. Don't try to make a point with tempo decks full of conditional cards

Lemnear has never suggested that being forced to replace Brainstorm with Preordain wouldn't affect combo or Miracles - in fact he's said quite the opposite. But combo is hardly anyone's target here, and Miracles would just be replaced by a different UW Control deck, or worse, by a UW Blade deck.

-snip-

Ponder + Preordain would still be the best consistency engine going, and it's not sufficiently weaker than Ponder + Brainstorm in the context of non-Miracles, non-combo decks for the improvement in the relative standing of non-blue decks to be perceptible. So my argument is only not true in the sense that the gap between blue and non-blue shrinks in some idealized hierarchy of decks, not in that any you'd see any observable effect.

Spot on. Tip hat

Edit: I argued before, why I think the blue decks would streamline into UWx Blade: Pure Control w/o Terminus is potentially underpowered and Tempo has too many conditional cards (Wasteland/Stifle/Daze) which would create consistancy problems w/o Brainstorm similar to drawing the Second/third fatty in S&T subtypes

[death]

I have played the 3 cantrips in almost every legacy deck I've owned, except Hulk Rebirth. I would argue that Ponder and Preordain are better fixers, those who say otherwise either haven't played all 3 or underestimate Ponder's ability to see 4 cards + shuffle and Preordain's scry ability. I do not advocate keeping sketchy hands just because it has a Brainstorm. Putting 2 cards back on top, without a fetchland, you brick on your consecutive draws.

[death]

Soo Treasure Cruise is played in 4 Delver decks (Ubg, Urg, Urw and UR) and Jeskai Ascendancy. They did not touch Delver, will Treasure Cruise share the same fate?

[btm10]

This is idiotic. Take a Deathblade list with Discard + FoW and replace the Brainstorm wirh Preordain and the decks still runs fluid. Don't try to make a point with tempo decks full of conditional cards



Spot on. Tip hat

Edit: I argued before, why I think the blue decks would streamline into UWx Blade: Pure Control w/o Terminus is potentially underpowered and Tempo has too many conditional cards (Wasteland/Stifle/Daze) which would create consistancy problems w/o Brainstorm similar to drawing the Second/third fatty in S&T subtypes

Thanks. These don't seem to be particularly popular opinions here, but I do think they're correct.

Soo Treasure Cruise is played in 4 Delver decks (Ubg, Urg, Urw and UR) and Jeskai Ascendancy. They did not touch Delver, will Treasure Cruise share the same fate?

What?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Reading this thread makes me wonder what's the text on Brainstrom. I always thought that it somehow returns cards back on top and that there's no other such card with cmc1, but they must have oracled that in some way.

[death]

It was suggested above that keeping an otherwise mulligan-worthy hand (a one-lander for example) is acceptable when you have a Brainstorm and that Brainstorm is better than Ponder and Preordain at fixing this poor decision. If you Brainstorm and draw garbage, you will put garbage back on top and you draw garbage for at least 2 turns, if you don't have any shuffle effect.

I can justify casting Brainstorm turn 1 or 2 on two occasions only: 1) in response to discard 2) in response to a crucial spell that needs to be answered immediately. Almost never without 2 garbage to put back on top and fetchland/shuffle effect available. Last time I checked, Brainstorm still doesn't have a shuffle/scry effect so claiming that Brainstorm, by itself, is the better fixer than the other two is incorrect.

Soo Treasure Cruise is played in 4 Delver decks (Ubg, Urg, Urw and UR) and Jeskai Ascendancy. They did not touch Delver, will Treasure Cruise share the same fate?

Going back to B&R discussion, DCI has not banned any creature card for as long as I can remember. Goyf, SFM, Snapcaster, Griselbrand, Delver and TNN are not getting banned. Treasure Cruise is the current offender in the majority of top 8's and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed next year. Until then..

[Zombie]

Mmm, healthy-looking DTB looks healthy.

Going back to B&R discussion, DCI has not banned any creature card for as long as I can remember. Goyf, SFM, Snapcaster, Griselbrand, Delver and TNN are not getting banned. Treasure Cruise is the current offender in the majority of top 8's and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed next year. Until then..

They should. Some spells only become stupid when paired with creatures that have no other application but said stupidity. And then there's TNN.

[Barook]

There isn't much to say here - UR Delver retains its crown, and the top of the field shrinks again to just five decks - and one of them is UR Delver with an extra colour thrown in!

Mmm, healthy-looking DTB looks healthy.

LOL diversity.

TC might get banned at some point in the future, and while I hope for some changes, I doubt anything is going to happen in the Fate Reforged update.

[FoolofaTook]

Treasure Cruise crossed WotC up. They thought they'd get a throwaway ban out of it after GP Brainstorm but it wasn't the force at the final tables. That was Brainstorm, as usual. They printed TC at common so they wouldn't piss anybody off when it got banned. Then it underperformed.

Now they're stuck with an even bluer meta than before and the only cards that were dominant at GP Brainstorm were Brainstorm and Force of Will.

Talk about a backfire.

[Lemnear]

Going back to B&R discussion, DCI has not banned any creature card for as long as I can remember. Goyf, SFM, Snapcaster, Griselbrand, Delver and TNN are not getting banned. Treasure Cruise is the current offender in the majority of top 8's and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed next year. Until then..

The only creature ever banned I can remember of was Kird Ape back in the stone age of MTG

[Quasim0ff]

Treasure Cruise crossed WotC up. They thought they'd get a throwaway ban out of it after GP Brainstorm but it wasn't the force at the final tables. That was Brainstorm, as usual. They printed TC at common so they wouldn't piss anybody off when it got banned. Then it underperformed.

Now they're stuck with an even bluer meta than before and the only cards that were dominant at GP Brainstorm were Brainstorm and Force of Will.

Talk about a backfire.

talk about a tinfoil hat

[Julian23]

The only creature ever banned I can remember of was Kird Ape back in the stone age of MTG

Serra Angel would like to have a word with you.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Serra Angel would like to have a word with you.

And Hyppie.
Juggernaut, too.

[Lemnear]

Serra Angel would like to have a word with you.

I can only remember it was left out of core sets after Beta because of "being too powerful" but don't know of a ban

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I can only remember it was left out of core sets after Beta because of "being too powerful" but don't know of a ban

Neither do I.
Here's some link: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Ti...d_restrictions
Hm, that Hypno Juggernaut affair happened in Extended.