[Deck] Turbo Depths

[TLK]

i just ran a few matches with it. Its really not what were looking for. The issue is that counterbalance by itself is almost worthless. Paired with SDT its good but we have no way of really searching for it. If we switch the focus to setting that up it will still be at best T3, which is not good enough against ant or most decks for that matter. any threats that that stick before its set up are still problems. It's clunky, and hard to cast, has little impact for its inclusion. I almost feel like we're better off running different 2 card combo because essentially thats what CB TOP is.

liliana is too slow. Hymn is good card advantage but sometimes too random. we can try something like canonist / meddling mage but not really that many slots

I had a feeling it would be lackluster without a way to search for the pieces.

I've considered running Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre/Leyline of the Void/Relic of Progenitus to shore up fast combo (Storm, Reanimator). It also has the added benefit of making Cruise decks an even better matchup. I think I'll try some mixture of this graveyard hate.

[apple713]

I had a feeling it would be lackluster without a way to search for the pieces.

I've considered running Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre/Leyline of the Void/Relic of Progenitus to shore up fast combo (Storm, Reanimator). It also has the added benefit of making Cruise decks an even better matchup. I think I'll try some mixture of this graveyard hate.

I actually mentioned relic of progenitus in another thread earlier tonight. Hits DRS, Treasure cruise, reanimator, snap caster, goyf, mongoose, punishing fire, life from the loam, some of ad nauseum, knight of the reliquary, goblin welder, AND in the event it doesn't hit anything it cantrips. Unfortunately, while it does have lots of interaction, it doesn't get us closer to our goal or protect token.

[TLK]

Well my main focus as of late was not losing to Storm, a match in which protecting our token doesn't matter, but losing before we can create one/swing with it does. Idk, more graveyard hate than just Bog might be warranted. Going to try a few Relic and Not of This World for added protection in my board at our weekly tournament tonight. 8 discard effects main, as well.

[apple713]

Well my main focus as of late was not losing to Storm, a match in which protecting our token doesn't matter, but losing before we can create one/swing with it does. Idk, more graveyard hate than just Bog might be warranted. Going to try a few Relic and Not of This World for added protection in my board at our weekly tournament tonight. 8 discard effects main, as well.

moving from 6-8 isn't likely to show a significant improvement. Also, NOTW doesn't help your combo matches at all. I feel like without changing the deck radically at this point it has pretty much reached its max potential. Unless a new card is printed that counters an instant, sorcery, or activated ability for 1 mana, it's unlikly this deck will see improvement. Really all this deck needs is mental misstep. maybe it'll be good in vintage?

[TLK]

The deck is solid as it is, and has many favorable matchups. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my last post, but the NOTW wasn't for Storm. It is used as added protection for the token which you stated the deck was missing. I think the heavy discard and graveyard hate would definitely help without sacrificing slots for other matchups given that the cards are still relevant against other decks.

[PhyrexianPossum]

Has anyone tested out any builds like these:
Tempo Depths
[spoiler]
//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (12)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

//Land (20)
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Polluted Delta
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Underground Sea
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Not of This World
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library

[/spoiler]

Tempo Depths (without fetchlands)
[spoiler]
//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (16)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Land (20)
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library

[/spoiler]

Cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain) smooth out our draws and make the combo much more consistent. We can play more of a tempo game with Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare. Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal can enable turn-one Marit Lages.

Personally, I believe the one with fetchlands is better because it enables Dazes and Brainstorms. However, it does enable Submerge, so it's an interesting trade-off. Also, the fetchland version can't use Pyroblast.

Thoughts? I've done some testing and it seems both faster and more consistent than our standard list with Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying.

[apple713]

Has anyone tested out any builds like these:
Tempo Depths

//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (12)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

//Land (20)
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Polluted Delta
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Underground Sea
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Not of This World
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library



Tempo Depths (without fetchlands)

//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (16)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Land (20)
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library



Cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain) smooth out our draws and make the combo much more consistent. We can play more of a tempo game with Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare. Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal can enable turn-one Marit Lages.

Personally, I believe the one with fetchlands is better because it enables Dazes and Brainstorms. However, it does enable Submerge, so it's an interesting trade-off. Also, the fetchland version can't use Pyroblast.

Thoughts? I've done some testing and it seems both faster and more consistent than our standard list with Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying.

daze is a terrible idea because it slows you down and late game its not likely to do anything when the only spells you are worried about are swords, and they'll have enough mana to pay for it late game. also they can just play around it g2 and its not likely to be effective.

[TLK]

Yeah I think I like the second list more for sure.

[PhyrexianPossum]

daze is a terrible idea because it slows you down and late game its not likely to do anything when the only spells you are worried about are swords, and they'll have enough mana to pay for it late game. also they can just play around it g2 and its not likely to be effective.

What do you think about the second list? I've found that the Rituals, Petals, and cantrips have improved the deck a lot.

[TLK]

Would it be viable to run 2 Force of Will over Spell Snare in the second list? Is there anything 2CMC we really care about?

[apple713]

What do you think about the second list? I've found that the Rituals, Petals, and cantrips have improved the deck a lot.

how did they "improve" the deck? All they do is provide speed to the deck. While that can help against matches that require it like ant, you are still more or less halted against a well places STP. you do have several discard spells, but you have removed all of the land tutors and significantly decreased consistency.

Additionally there is no recursion. Spell snare hits nothing that we care about.

Things we care about

wasteland
swords to plowshares
karakas
maze of ith

there is a more comprehensive list on the primer


furthermore, I'm not convinced that either of yourr list are better than the Turbo list i posted in the primer, Apple713's list

[Chatto]

There is no need in splashing blue when you don't play Brainstorm and Force of Will. Why soft-counters when you can hard-counter? Of course you will need a grand total of 16-18 Blue cards to support FoW, but between Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and Force of Will itself this would be easy. Then again, I will not splash blue, because this deck runs fine without that color.

If you want to 'speed things up' I would suggest to go with the Classic Builds, like in the old threat: Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal and perhaps Simian Spirit Guide. I haven't got the time to play-test OP's decks, but those seem more consistent as well.

[Shakara]

I don't think blue is necessary either. Living Wish+Crop Rotation can tutor for the combo very well. Maybe a combo shell of:

4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation

3 Vampire Hexmage

3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage

This would leave a lot of room for any mix of aggressive,controlling and disruptive elements like discard and lilianas. Maindeck Pithing Needle is another thing I've seen before that seems very strong. There are relevant non wasteland targets in most match ups and lilianas can help pitch them too.

[apple713]

the deck doesn't have issues with consistency. the problem is that it has little to interact with other decks that are faster, such as ant.

[TLK]

Yeah, honestly I've been testing the 8 discard spell list from a page or so back and it has been performing really well against a variety of decks. The deck is super consistent and can easily make a token at worst on turn 4, and even quicker against decks that can't interact. I agree our main issue has been fast(er) combo decks (aside from Elves). I really wish Mental Misstep was still legal. :/ I think a form of graveyard hate is smart against ANT since we basically lose once they cast Past In Flames. Bog out of the board hasn't been enough. I added a couple Relic of Pregenitus, so we'll see how that goes.

[Chatto]

Another top 4-finish by, I believe, Adrieng. Couldn't find it back here, so a link: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15452

I'm curious, just because I'm building the Rg Lands-deck atm, how the MU went against that deck (I would think this deck is just plain faster)

[TLK]

I won a good 20+ matches online before losing to Storm. They always seem to go off the turn before I swing for 20. Super annoying. No idea what more to do against this matchup. I discard their hand into oblivion, yet they still manage to go off seemingly out of nowhere. Not sure what more to try. I've even considered Angel's Grace or something. Maybe even Leyline of Sanctity. I'm out of options. I will say that I have not been impressed with NotW at all. Sure, it's extra insurance, but I'd rather have more hate cards.

[apple713]

I won a good 20+ matches online before losing to Storm. They always seem to go off the turn before I swing for 20. Super annoying. No idea what more to do against this matchup. I discard their hand into oblivion, yet they still manage to go off seemingly out of nowhere. Not sure what more to try. I've even considered Angel's Grace or something. Maybe even Leyline of Sanctity. I'm out of options. I will say that I have not been impressed with NotW at all. Sure, it's extra insurance, but I'd rather have more hate cards.

that's the general consensus on NOTW. Unfortunately it seems as though Storm requires more cards than we are willing to commit to it.

[TLK]

It's super annoying to lose to it time and time again. Storm seems to be growing in popularity online, which makes me want to devote more slots. I just don't know what to select. I'm literally crushing nearly every other matchup. Only close ones are D&T and Miracles and other fast combo. Maverick is a tad annoying too.

[apple713]

It's super annoying to lose to it time and time again. Storm seems to be growing in popularity online, which makes me want to devote more slots. I just don't know what to select. I'm literally crushing nearly every other matchup. Only close ones are D&T and Miracles and other fast combo. Maverick is a tad annoying too.

maverick parallels D&T and can be worse because of utility lands.