Dim.Ret. is still the same junk it was once we cutted the Silences and the metagame developed into 65% blue decks. I don't know why you want an additional combo engine if you have all freedom to finish with EtW, setup a loop with PIF or, in case your 'yard is junk, draw 3 and get closer to your Infernal Tutor. You can run a SB Duress, if you wish in addition, but I consider it a step forward that we were able to reduce the Wish-board to a minimum and open up space for actual SB cards which was totally different in 2011/2012.Originally Posted by Asthereal
Happy new year to you too!
Question about this list: since there's no Infernal Tutor in the side, don't you feel Diminishing Returns should return to the Wish board? Right now a single Wish can only be used for Empty, natural Tendrils or Treasure Cruise. For Past in Flames lines we need an additional Tutor or Wish, and if we don't have that, our options for Wish would be pretty limited. I know Returns isn't the best, but I think in this setup we might need an additional combo Wish target. How did this work in your testing?
I talked about Cruise here right after it being spoilered. Forgive me if I can't remember the page(s). It's pretty good in grindy games (trading discard spells for example), making up for cards spend to overcome defense and for a cardboost to support the natural chain. It is a nice way to profit from weak graveyards (mainly Lands & cantrips).
The CR is slow in nature and the manaboost mainly relevant for the SB Infernal playline which was cut for the moment. Despite CR also fueling PIF, the playline isn't that much of a selling point if you want to improve the Belcher-route, which Bryant is obviously trying because of his opponents tending to keep slow hands.
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Mainly Cruise is there for grinding games where PiF is not an option?
Let's say you're almost comboing (you need only 1 fast mana) and have BWish. Is it right to get Cruise? Or wait for the last card?
Or should we use BWish+Cruise when we have multiples tutor and manas to get 3 new cards and 2 storm count?
If you need a +1 manasource, you should wait. If you need a +2, I would cruise. You can sure convert additional Wishes into draw3's. You only have to decide if you want to fire off the cruise immediately or wait until you have 7-8 cards in hand to boost your handsize up to 10 for a natural chain, with Infernal->Wish->ToA being already 3 storm on it's own
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Someone talk me out of running City of Solitude.
You're trying to run a 3 cmc card in a deck where you have 13 lands.
Not good enough.
The miracles was a build with ponder, UWr.
@ Thoughtsieze I actually love thoughtsieze against the counterspell light UR builds that have been floating around lately. Taking their delver/young pyro when they don't have relevant action against you is well worth it. Also Thoughtsieze can be pretty good against burn which shows up in decent numbers (I WANT YOUR EDIOLON!) at the very worse against burn it gains you 1 life. It's also good vs elves, dnt, and UWR. Frankly, I haven't found the 2 life detrimental yet. The decks I played this past week were not wholly representative of my meta. There are always a ton of randoms. 2 weeks ago I played Painter, Miracles, TEZZ, and a UR burn deck, so I like the flexibility.
I don't know why they show me getting 1st place. [EDIT: Has been fixed in the link] I actually got 9th at 6-1-1 (yes, I drew myself into 9th, I obviously need to improve my tie breaker wizardry).
I'll include a quick rundown for those who are interested. I took no notes, so some of the details might be a bit fuzzy. SCG's new parings thingy is nice, without it I'd only have remembered 2 or 3 names.
R1 2-0 Feline with High Tide. T1'd her game 2.
R2 1-2 Erik Stone with Dredge. I had to go goblins g3, had rebuilt for storm kill next turn and the luckiest dredges later, I lose. This matchup is tough but rare enough I don't mind the coinflip w/0 sideboard cards.
R3 2-0 Ryan Reed with Miracles (UWR with ponders). Game 1 he keeps a sketch hand that a thoughtsieze strips of a force. I combo. G2 Xantid and Discard get there!
R4 2-0 Bret Colbert with Grinding Station (basically TES Mirror I guess) G1 I draw AdNaus before he can go off. G2 he miscounts mana and stumbles. I capitalize.
R5 2-1 Eric Hammel with Pox Lands. G1 he uses riftstone portal to mess up my math about when he would make a 20/20. I don't make that mistake again.
R6 2-0 Jackson Smith with Burn. End of his turn 1 Adnaus game 1. G2 he gets super unlucky and sees no lands till a mull to 4, mulls took longer than the match.
R7 - 2-1 Hayden Brass with Lands. G1 he makes a 20/20 in my endstep T2 (I was on the play, his hand was nutty). I didn't have enough to get there, and hadn't given away what I was on, (only played thoughtsieze, his quote "oh, you're not on storm") so I scooped to game two. He didn't see my t1 AdNaus coming. Game 3 he never draws any storm hate.
R8 - ID with Ben Ball (storm? ANT?) Shouldn't have done it. I knew it was possible, but I didn't think it was likely. Might have cost me at least $100. He made top 8, so maybe my math wasn't 100% off.
Cards I never Wished for:
Massacre - Still want to keep it.
Shattering Spree - More of a card for my local meta, should have likely been something else, maybe 3rd Abrupt Decay, I'm not sure on this slot.
I like my mixup of 2 decays, 2 swarm, 2 needle, 2 chain of vapor. It gives me a lot of flexibility, especially against unknown hate. All 8 were brought in at some point over the day.
I don't mind the land in my board. I rarely want to side more than 4 or 5 cards anyway as I feel this deck can get diluted very quickly. Using a SB slot on a Bayou doesn't cost me much in opportunity cost for that SB slot. Plus, I still only like 12 lands main. I almost lost g2 to dredge because I topped decked a land with an IT in hand, turned out irrelevant, but I still don't like running 13 in the main. I hate seeing 3+ lands in a game.
My same argument applies to discard. Drawing more than 2 is the worst so I've gone down to 6 in the main. Chrome mox is really good for going off early so I've kept in 3, as well as 2 cabal rituals for extra acceleration. I won the only game I saw all 3 moxes naturally drawn, for what it's worth.
Overall, the deck preformed very well. I'm still liking MD Empty as it gives the deck such t1 explosiveness. I don't think anyone is ready for 12 goblins before they draw their first card. On the day, I won maybe 40% of my games off it. I often side it out G2 if I need my AdNauses to be stronger, and if they've already seen goblins G1 (most decks have X/1 hate in spades).
Let me know if you have any more questions. I've been very impressed with the deck. After 8-1 D1 of the Grand Prix, T8ing a local legacy IQ, a strong showing today, and some good weekly results in my local meta I feel better than ever playing TES. I'm enjoying it more and more each week, and I learn something new each tournament. The deck is very rewarding to play with. Keep up the good work and keep storming, and let me know if you have any questions.
Obligatory Props:
Everyone who came from Pittsburgh to Columbus for a tourney, good times were had.
A quickly run tourney from SCG. Most time I saw between rounds was 11 or 12 minutes.
On street parking right in front of the venue.
Slops:
Tiebreakers
Trucks stopping for no reason on I70
Dredge
It's a Xantid attached to a Pithning Needle for 2G and easy Daze/Pierce victim. As the card is not even fast enough for S&T matchups, we're basically down to Miracles as the only deck you want and can affors running this.
Sidenote: Kinda Sad that WotC isn't printing more cards like Dosan, Xantid and City for green. A hexproof Xantid would be awesome ;)
The chances to win with EtW against a ponder build and a pilot knowing what he's doing against TES are horrible. Most pilots bring in stuff like Explosives plus flusterstorms and EtW isn't going to get better if you have to dismember defense first (usually Games 2 & 3). That's why EtW was ever considered the very first boarding slot against Miracles
Actually, I'm more concerned about the SB games against UR which involve several Blasts and Flusterstorms plus Electrickery, rather than trading cards for their redundant threats and burning myself for two. I prefer sitting on the Duress until the critical turn to boost the stormcount and shatter their shields. I disagree with the Burn matchup. I'm not willing to shock myself just to see no Eidolon in my opponents hand and basically trade a card to prevent 1 damage, but give my opponent the advantage of not having to tap a mana for the shock at all. I commented on stuff like D&T or Elves and why I consider Thoughtseize a bad move here compared to casting Ponder or Wish. It's pretty clear why the two life didn't affect you much if you run 3 moxen and 2 cabals, but I consider the manabase too fragile against tempo-elements or if games drag out aka playing against Miracles, D&T or Blade variants a significant amount of times during a tournament, which was the reason to tinker with a more conservative manabase from the start.
Wow R5/6/7 against Lands/Burn/Lands? Too easy lol
Shouldn't be unusual to need two or three pieces of disruption against defensive decks and without a discard spell in the board you have to dig out 2 out of 6 discard spells in your deck out of 60 cards, which I consider tricky. If you draw the Moxen in a slow matchup or one with minimum interaction like lands, it isn't THAT backbreaking. The problem occurs if games last longer than turn 3 and you have to play around Daze, Pierce, Wasteland, Thalia, Flusterstorm or can't cast Ad Nauseam safely anymore, where you have to invest two cards for a mere mana. (Editors note: which is the exact opposite of what Sol lands do: 1 card - 2 mana)
That is correct, but if you don't hit your 17% (own lifetime statistic) T1 combo possibility or your opponent keeps FoW (especially game 2 & 3), the value of EtW falls rapidly because of Explosives, Electrickery, Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Daze, Flusterstorm, Terminus, etc.
Congratulations, non the less! Love to hear more stories in the future
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Hey!
Happy new year to all of you too stormers!
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
5.1.? I let that count ... happy new year to you too! ;P
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congratulation redhamjack.
I guess you boardet out empty the warrens against dredge?
I always see this deck as an aggro deck with discard.
What i really like about having Tutor in the sideboard is that we are now able to actually tutor chain if we have a lot of mana. (10 mana-> wish-tutor-wish-tendrils)
I'm also asking myself: what about running a rain of filth in the main for extra mana boost if we execute a tutor chain combo ?
It's powerlevel is close to cabal ritual but instead of having ******** we need 2+ lands in play to profit from it.
@redhamjack:
Questions:
- Do you think having Dim. Ret. in side could have won you the match up somehow?
- How did you side vs Miracles with your build?
- Could you expose how the 2nd game vs Miracles was developed?
Edit: Related the Dredge Match up:
Well EtW is an option to make Dredge a bit slower as you can avoid bridges with Therapy, I would bring in cards from my side that gets faster the match up, I don't think bringing in a land for example makes the deck faster. For my taste I don't think I will remove EtW main vs this archetype.
Thanks.
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Why is Dim.Ret. popping up every few posts?
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I did take out empty, but wound up short of adnaus, decided he was mana screwed enough to run goblins out of the board, and I paid full price for my mistake. Thinking of it as an aggro deck with discard is a bit misleading. I tend to think of it as more "belcher-esque" in that it can win out of nowhere, and requires specific hate to address. Honestly I feel like the matchup should be 60/40 in our favor, I just need to sit down with a dredge player and play 100+ matches to get a better handle on this matchup.
I've actually tested a singleton Rain of Filth before. Its not been good for me. Cabal ritual is always +1, Rain of Filth is only +1 after turn 2 and scales pretty badly, whereas Cabal Ritual jumps to +3 pretty quick.
No. I don't think Dim. Ret. would have won me the match. Game 3 he was mana screwed, and I was mana light, when I went for goblins t2. I wouldn't have gone for Dim. Ret anyway because I didn't want to let him out of his screw. I haven't played with this card for a while, and I think it's generally not very good. When I had it in the board I never wished for it. I think our matchup against dredge should be better naturally, and perhaps I'm just bad playing against dredge.
Against Miracles I sided 2 Xantid, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Bayou for 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Empty, 2 Ponder, 1 Gitaxian Probe. I like to keep in Cabal Ritual as the 2 cmc is useful in dodging Counterbalance. After extensive testing against this matchup with one of my playtest partners whose pet deck is miracles I can say that needle isn't as good as I want it to be in this matchup. Turning off top is good, but not quite good enough, especially on the draw.
G2 my hand is something like Thoughtsieze, Xantid, Cabal Therapy, Fetch, Bayou, Dark Ritual, Ad Nausum. I draw a chrome mox and I play t1 bayou into Xantid. He EoT fetches into volcanic for electrickery, killing swarm. He plays a fetch t2 and passes. I draw and play a Probe, seeing a hand of something like Counterbalance, Force, Jace, Brainstorm, and 2 cards I don't remember. I play Thoughtsieze, he Brainstorms in response, putting CB and Jace on Top, showing be Force, Entreat, and infinite lands (how lucky!) I take Force, and I play a ponder, setting up my kill with another discard protection next turn. He doesn't play counterbalance for some reason (didn't want to fetch away Jace I assume, or maybe the order was reversed). Anyway I win the next turn, showboating a little with multiple burning wishes.
I agree. I don't enjoy going for goblins g1 against Miracles, and I know the odds aren't entirely with us, but if I can land goblins and strip a terminus on a therapy flashback, I'll go for it. Ill then always side it out.
Lots of fair decks floating around :) Somehow I lost a game in both the lands matchups.
We can go back and forth on this. I respect duress, and I think it is a solid card for a lot of folks to use. However, with my play style, and how I've built my list, I don't feel bad running thoughtsieze at all.
I have noticed this from time to time. Coming up sort on disruption can hurt. I think I might add in a sideboard discard spell and see how that works for me with a virtual 10.
Late post.
GP Manila took place last 2-4 January 2015. There was a legacy side event in each day, although I only managed to play once (January 2).
I brought with me the same 73 cards out of my 75 cards that I used last December’s year end. The only changes were: -2 Carpet of Flowers for +1 Surgical Extraction and Pithing Needle. We only had it five round swiss. No top 8 play-offs. And my MUs were:
Boros 2-0
Reanimator 1-1
Jund 2-1
UG Infect 2-0
BUG 2-0
I failed to participate in the 4 January 2015 legacy side event because I was late.
Happy New Year everyone!
Uhhhmmmm and just my two cents on the discussion on Dim. Ret., with UR and URW decks getting rampant, we are all aware that they’ll be bringing in their additional counters off the sideboards. So with that, it increases the chances of drawing counters. And if you happened to decide to take that Dim. Ret. route without the aid of Silence and/ or Xantid Swarm – then good luck.
On the discussion ETW, I think it is worth enough to bring it back in the 60. UR and URW and BUG and UW blades and even burn decks does not have mass removals for our ETW plan. I’d say -1 Tutor + 1 ETW.
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
Congratz once more!
You sure are talking about MB mass removal, because there is still plenty in sideboards, especially with Young Pyromancer being the formats enemy #1. Electrickery, Explosives, verdicts, Golgari Charms and even awesome stuff like Bonfire of the damned (I pondered countless times about that card for our sideboard in place of Pyroclasm xD).
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go crack some lotus petals for a bonfire x=2 :D
Would be a nice troll move 2015.
I would rather build a completely troll storm deck with hunting pack as the only storm spell.
Hi storm folks,
I have been pondering on moving away from Modern into Legacy since the printing of Treasure Cruise. It has warped the format, and it his dreadful to face someone who has no hand and then finds the boat into snapcaster bolt pyromancer or some crazy shenanigans and there goes a game that was on the bag.
It seems like the old affinity, where you were either playing it or designing your deck to beat it.
I played when Mind's desire was standard legal, and it was a fun card to resolve. Therefore, I am going into storm. Apart from blue duals which I will eventually get, I can build ANT, TES or Doomsday. I understand their pros and cons, and while I love the idea of getting to play doomsday, which seems skill intensive, but is it competitive enough? From my goldfishing and watching videos and tournament reports from both ant, tes and doomsday, it seems going on before the hate becomes turned on is a major advantage. I'd rather churnout 14 goblins before thalia is online than grind it out, resolve a doomsday to find an answer for her. It is not like TES is a glass cannon anyway.
I have a question for more seasoned players. Why moving away from empty maindeck? I know it makes for worse ad nauseum, but isn't the extra speed a bonus? I have often been 1 mana short of tutoring for ad nauseum and even then, ad nauseum with 0 mana floating is risky.
Also, why the treasure cruise in the board? For the grindy matchups? Wouldn't sylvan library be better? Also, wouldn't 1-2 cabal rituals be a good thing for past in flames chains? I am basing this comments in the last list posted by Briant Cook (awesome work and super pimp deck)
Empty just isn't great in the metagame due to the rise in Young Pyromancer. There's an extreme amount of hate for 1/1 creatures making Empty the Warrens a less than stellar option. The speed bonus is nice and I've missed it every once in awhile, but it's not worth being consistently worse in other match-ups.
Treasure Cruise in the sideboard fills the same role as Cabal Ritual actually – to make us more powerful in the mid-to-late game. They're both slower options, I didn't like how much slower the deck was with Cabal Ritual in the main over the third Chrome Mox and the Empty/(4th) Infernal Tutor slot. I feel as if we're not sacrificing any of the mid-to-late game anymore by having a Cruise in the sideboard. I would never understand why Sylvan Library would be better.
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