All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Depends on the powerlevel of the card. The current hate cards aren't powerful enough to contain the blue cantrip shell, so new cards would need to be significantly more powerful to even have a chance to dent it. Which leads us to new problems:

Let's say they print a 1 mana hatebear with flash and some fancy stats/abilities aside from extra draw denial that makes it maindeckable without gimping yourself. You either draw it, while being at the mercy of your topdecks, and have high impact when you catch them, or you don't. It makes the nature of the games much more swingy, and I'm not exactly a fan of that. They would need multiple cards that share a similiar function to make the gameplan work consistently.

You never heared of powerlevel and cost-balance, do you?

Sidenote: how is such a card (a balanced Version) more acceptable to run in MBs than Pyroblasts, which fanned a shitstorm here?


Edit:

Wouldn't it be easier to just put a better Scroll Rack into a Commander set? I don't think that simply dropping the 1 to activate would be beyond the pale, and Rack + Shuffle is nearly as good as Brainstorm + shuffle. Any color can play swap and hide at instant speed, or manipulate their draws.

I heared Sensei's Divining Top is a card.

[tescrin]

You never heared of powerlevel and cost-balance, do you?
Sidenote: how is such a card (a balanced Version) more acceptable to run in MBs than Pyroblasts, which fanned a shitstorm here?

Edit:
I heared Sensei's Divining Top is a card.

A) He's saying that you can't print a balanced card that is mainable and hates on the cantrip shell and that, further,even if you could it would simply serve to make very swingy games.

B) Top doesn't get rid of garbage in your hand, nor is it instant speed, nor does it hide cards. It's no where near Brainstorm/Scroll Rack

The only real issue with Scroll Rack is that hand size matters and 2-mana often means a reasonably powerful spell in legacy; making it unrealistic without losing significant tempo in a lot scenarios.

[FoolofaTook]

A) He's saying that you can't print a balanced card that is mainable and hates on the cantrip shell and that, further,even if you could it would simply serve to make very swingy games.

B) Top doesn't get rid of garbage in your hand, nor is it instant speed, nor does it hide cards. It's no where near Brainstorm/Scroll Rack

The only real issue with Scroll Rack is that hand size matters and 2-mana often means a reasonably powerful spell in legacy; making it unrealistic without losing significant tempo in a lot scenarios.

If you're going to use Scroll Rack you really need a way to get extra cards in hand to fuel it and then the question revolves around whether you really need to do anything else after you've gotten those extra cards anyway.

Land Tax + Scroll Rack was the classic combo and so far nobody has found a shell in which Land Tax is good enough to justify playing the basics required to fuel it.

If the blue shell gets nerfed then people will probably look at Land Tax as one of the options to gain card advantage again and then Scroll Rack becomes a real possibility.

[Lemnear]

What really bothers the MTG crowd in terms of Treasure Cruise... #MaRoVerse

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't care for your essay-long post. I can remember your posts, rants and ban-calls throughout the last 20 Pages.

Arguing from the postion of ignorance is an amazing stance, dood. I finally know why your posts make no sense.

[Lemnear]

Arguing from the postion of ignorance is an amazing stance, dood. I finally know why your posts make no sense.

#INeverSaidThingsBeforeBecauseTheyAreNotInTheLatestPostMade

[tescrin]

Land Tax + Scroll Rack was the classic combo and so far nobody has found a shell in which Land Tax is good enough to justify playing the basics required to fuel it.

I'm mildly surprised there's no Loam deck built around it. Loam's card and Dredge both serve the SRack well; but I'd assume it has to do with Loam lists having high land counts and thus their selection from the grave is all they need. Might be fun to try though.

[btm10]

If you're going to use Scroll Rack you really need a way to get extra cards in hand to fuel it and then the question revolves around whether you really need to do anything else after you've gotten those extra cards anyway.

I don't think that this is necessarily true. Extra cards definitely help abuse Scroll Rack, but if you're using it as a sort of off-color Brainstorm (hand fixing, card hiding) they're not needed. Land Tax was valuable as much because it gave you a shuffle the next turn as it was for the lands, and Fetches fix the shuffle problem.

All that being said, Rack is probably too expensive foe most decks, especially aggro decks.

[Barook]

You never heared of powerlevel and cost-balance, do you?

Well, well, well, what does this tell us about Brainstorm?

The current hate cards don't really cut it (due to sorcery speed and costing 2+ mana) and the required powerlevel to actually dent it would be deemed "too powerful" (and swingy). How exactly do you plan to balance Brainstorm then while it takes over the format more each year? You don't want to see it banned and you don't want maindeckable hate that is on par with its powerlevel.

As far as your Pyroblast question is concered, it's a sideboard card and the fact that it's maindeckable now (same with Choke) is a sign that that there's something wrong with the format. However, a dude is a dude and can go into the red zone, it's never dead.

I don't think that this is necessarily true. Extra cards definitely help abuse Scroll Rack, but if you're using it as a sort of off-color Brainstorm (hand fixing, card hiding) they're not needed. Land Tax was valuable as much because it gave you a shuffle the next turn as it was for the lands, and Fetches fix the shuffle problem.

All that being said, Rack is probably too expensive foe most decks, especially aggro decks.

Even if they printed an improved Rack variant, what are the chances blue decks don't get the most out of it?

What really bothers the MTG crowd in terms of Treasure Cruise... #MaRoVerse

I see that as a hint that they're going to banhammer TC at least in some formats.

[wonderPreaux]

As far as your Pyroblast question is concered, it's a sideboard card and the fact that it's maindeckable now (same with Choke) is a sign that that there's something wrong with the format. However, a dude is a dude and can go into the red zone, it's never dead.

How is this a sign that something is wrong with the format? You wanted a punishing, cheap hate card for Brainstorm, and you've got one. It's nothing but arbitrary that Pyroblast has to be a sideboard card. People have maindecked StP for years, despite it being dead against combo, and no one ever complained.

[Scott]

The current hate cards don't really cut it (due to sorcery speed and costing 2+ mana) and the required powerlevel to actually dent it would be deemed "too powerful" (and swingy).

We've also seen WotC, when it decides to design a bit more creatively and intelligently, demonstrate that cool cards can rein in other cards/strategies without being some combination of hamfisted, overpowered, or swingy. Deathrite Shaman is a maindeckable card that's helped put a check on graveyard strategies, without being too narrow in application or utterly deciding a game when it lands or doesn't land. The same can be done for Brainstorm.

[Megadeus]

The fact that in terms of ubiquity, people are comparing a generic creature destruction spell like STP to a color hoser like REB/PBlast is kind of telling.

[Barook]

You wanted a punishing, cheap hate card for Brainstorm, and you've got one.

Except a good chunk of Brainstorm decks run it themselves to fight off other blue decks - for some decks, it's one of the main reasons to splash red.

A good hate card for Brainstorm needs to be cheap, fast and symmetrical - without the symmetry, it's just going to feed blue decks even more. We had that case exactly once before when Wizards designed an anti-Brainstorm card that fulfilled the the first two requirements, but lacked the symmetry - and we all know how Mental Misstep ended up in a blue clusterfuck.

As for the StP argument, what's more likely to encounter nowadays - creatures in any form or blue spells? Looking at the MODO meta, there are ~16% decks that don't offer reasonable StP targets in any form (no creatures, Emrakul, etc.) - I do count stuff like Angel or Marit Lage tokens as viable targets where StP isn't dead. So running StP is still a more reasonable choice than Pyroblast which has somewhere between 25-30% dead decks. But hey, who cares, blue has Brainstorm and can simply shuffle away the dead Pyroblasts in matches were it isn't needed while other decks like Jund just have to eat the dead draws.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm mildly surprised there's no Loam deck built around it. Loam's card and Dredge both serve the SRack well; but I'd assume it has to do with Loam lists having high land counts and thus their selection from the grave is all they need. Might be fun to try though.

Life from the Loam and Scroll Rack are both slow to develop. In combination they'd be good but they'd be anti-tempo until way out in the mid-game. Probably too far out to be competitive. LftL isn't even used much anymore because it has no real effect until turn 3 and often turn 4.

[wonderPreaux]

Except a good chunk of Brainstorm decks run it themselves to fight off other blue decks - for some decks, it's one of the main reasons to splash red.

A good hate card for Brainstorm needs to be cheap, fast and symmetrical - without the symmetry, it's just going to feed blue decks even more. We had that case exactly once before when Wizards designed an anti-Brainstorm card that fulfilled the the first two requirements, but lacked the symmetry - and we all know how Mental Misstep ended up in a blue clusterfuck.

As for the StP argument, what's more likely to encounter nowadays - creatures in any form or blue spells? Looking at the MODO meta, there are ~16% decks that don't offer reasonable StP targets in any form (no creatures, Emrakul, etc.) - I do count stuff like Angel or Marit Lage tokens as viable targets where StP isn't dead. So running StP is still a more reasonable choice than Pyroblast which has somewhere between 25-30% dead decks. But hey, who cares, blue has Brainstorm and can simply shuffle away the dead Pyroblasts in matches were it isn't needed while other decks like Jund just have to eat the dead draws.

A decent amount of the reason that blue decks run Pyro/REB is also to target the Cruise,TNN, Delver cards, threats that blue has no business having as far as color identity goes. That's the main problem with blue, they have different sorts of threats they shouldn't have, so tempo/control decks, that are commonly blue, play the unit hate card that efficiently answers a number of threats.

re: stp, it's not a matter of likelihood relative to one another, brainstorm vs pyroblast. the 9%-14% difference doens't change the similar dynamics. stp is a cheap, fast, asymmetrical answer to a likely threat, so is pyroblast, why is one ok and not the other? Further, please try and avoid fallacious arguments of implying absolutes like the idea that brainstorm is omnipresent to remove dead cards.

[Megadeus]

Because one is a generic answer to most creatures of any color while the other only answers cards of a certain color. If main deck choke were a popular thing it would be a little more obvious, but when a color specific hoser is highly played, you know it's an issue

[death]

Why did I create another B&R thread? Because I'm afraid this suggestion will be lost in the discussions. I have been Brainstorming since Dream Halls and Time Spiral were Standard-legal. Brainstorm wasn't as good then as it is right now because of the lack of shuffle effects, there weren't any fetchlands and Brainstorm is basically the only filter spell available.

There has been much talk going on since 2011, during the Snapcaster Mage and Mental Misstep era, that blue decks are dominating the format. Mental Misstep got axed, but B&R discussions continued and Brainstorm became the subject of debates. Here's my take on the timeline and how the format gradually deteriorated over time into what we currently see in DTB section.

2007 - Ponder was printed
2009 - Zendikar fetch lands
2011 - Preordain got printed
2014 - Treasure Cruise printed

WotC admitted mistakes were made: Jace TMS (in standard), Vengevine, Necrotic Ooze, Mental Misstep caused imbalances and corrective actions were taken. Right now, Brainstorm is not the sole culprit. It's the newer cards that breaks it in a sense. We cannot just get rid of Brainstorm because the card puts the format in balance. Others have already stated that it is a pillar in legacy: What should "define" the Legacy format? by H.

Without Brainstorm, the format loses diversity as numerous decks will turn into a giant pile of random old/new-bordered cards. Legacy becomes less appealing overall and less interactive since Force of Will also needs this card in order to keep things in check.

Brainstorm > Preordain > Serum Visions is fine, win-win scenario. As I have argued, Ponder has a shuffle + draw effect which makes it stronger than Brainstorm on certain occasions. My proposal:


Ban Ponder and Treasure Cruise.


Edit:
So, the thread I created was deleted and the contents merged into this one. I was hoping to find out if the general public agrees with the proposed changes.

There are five decks in DTB section...

Before Treasure Cruise how many where they? How many are in the Established section and thrive because of Brainstorm?

You don't execute innocent party's to save guilty ones.

Exactly, I'm with you. Read my post again regarding Ponder and Treasure Cruise.

I am not viewing Brainstorm as a sacred cow at this point, rather as the kill switch to many legacy archetypes.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Without Brainstorm, the format loses diversity...

There are five decks in DTB section...

[Dice_Box]

As a fan of Brainstorm (ie, wanting to keep it) I want to say your post is stupid.

It just makes zero level of sense to do what you are suggesting. If it comes to ahead that the card is really the problem, you don't give it a free pass, you fix the problem. Look at it this way, if I am constantly fighting with my brothers and causing issues in the home, it should not be my bothers that are asked to move out, it should be me as the cause of the problems.

You don't execute innocent party's to save guilty ones.

[Lemnear]

Well, well, well, what does this tell us about Brainstorm?

The current hate cards don't really cut it (due to sorcery speed and costing 2+ mana) and the required powerlevel to actually dent it would be deemed "too powerful" (and swingy). How exactly do you plan to balance Brainstorm then while it takes over the format more each year? You don't want to see it banned and you don't want maindeckable hate that is on par with its powerlevel.

As far as your Pyroblast question is concered, it's a sideboard card and the fact that it's maindeckable now (same with Choke) is a sign that that there's something wrong with the format. However, a dude is a dude and can go into the red zone, it's never dead.

It does obviously tell nothing about Brainstorm. It just tells me that you are just as uncreative and powercreep loving as WotC. Why denial instead of a punisher machanic? 1R - Flash - 2/1 - when [name] enters the battlefield deal damage to target player equally to cards that player drew that turn.

The fact that in terms of ubiquity, people are comparing a generic creature destruction spell like STP to a color hoser like REB/PBlast is kind of telling.

Because having "cardtype" as the defining factor is any more basic than "color" if you look at MTG on a fundamental level? Fuck the fact that Duress and Spell Pierces are maindeckable despite of not hitting creatures and no one's whinning about that. Fuck the fact that Pyroblast is permanent PLUS stack interaction. Fuck flexiblity as reason to MD cards. Because "creatures" is the big, acceptable exception among all cardtypes, right?

Funnily, you consider "creatures" the defining core of most Legacy decks so that MD Plows are acceptable. What if I consider "blue" the defining core of most Legacy decks so that MB Pyroblasts are acceptable?

As for the StP argument, what's more likely to encounter nowadays - creatures in any form or blue spells? Looking at the MODO meta, there are ~16% decks that don't offer reasonable StP targets in any form (no creatures, Emrakul, etc.) - I do count stuff like Angel or Marit Lage tokens as viable targets where StP isn't dead. So running StP is still a more reasonable choice than Pyroblast which has somewhere between 25-30% dead decks. But hey, who cares, blue has Brainstorm and can simply shuffle away the dead Pyroblasts in matches were it isn't needed while other decks like Jund just have to eat the dead draws.

Yeah, go try undermine the fact that Jund with MD Blasts just won a big tournament because of all those "dead draws" it can avoid with cards like SDT, Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile.

Because one is a generic answer to most creatures of any color while the other only answers cards of a certain color. If main deck choke were a popular thing it would be a little more obvious, but when a color specific hoser is highly played, you know it's an issue

How many times do this point needs to be adressed? About 4 times within the last 17 pages by me alone including this post? "color" and "cardtype" are both fundamental aspects of the games design, but you choose that 1 of 8 card types is any more relevant than 1 of 5 colors


Edit:

There are five decks in DTB section...

You and your excellent understanding of how the DTB section works