[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[jbone2016]

Have you found this adequate for storm? I feel like I'd get steamrolled with such few hate cards

Teeg in the main tends to steal some game ones.
Knowing what to name on blind therapies as well. Usually if I have a feeling they are on storm, I will go with a mana source on the blind. Usually dark ritual. Sometimes LED.

[Bobmans]

Beating combo requires a little bit of luck (solid openings hand) and damn good sequencing and knowing how decks work and cards interact (not just your own card).
Overall i don't feel bad bringing NicFit to a combo meta.
Currently i am running PFire and am testing 4 siege junk and sfm junk. I still tend to lean towards PFire as the overall better mu against combo although i must add being against storm is the weaker MU. Id rather have teeg vs that.

[sdematt]

Teeg is where you want to be against Combo, and it doubles well against Elves and Miracles. You can cast Turn 2 Teeg at the earliest (unfortunately), but your Turn 1's can quite a bit of discard.

The matchup is still not in your favour since we're not playing blue, but if I had to say which is better against Combo, it's Junk. You can play Canonist or Militant if you want to, you get Teeg, and you still have discard and Surgical. In red, you only get Slaughter Games, and REB hits very little in combo except Chain of Vapour, but you don't play any permanents they'd want to bounce anyway.

Make the right calls with Therapy - what can't I beat? What's the worst that can happen? Recall that there's very few cards that matter in Storm. Generally, Infernal Tutor is the card they're working towards, since the chances of naturally having AdN is decently low.


-Matt

[Arianrhod]

Teeg is where you want to be against Combo, and it doubles well against Elves and Miracles. You can cast Turn 2 Teeg at the earliest (unfortunately), but your Turn 1's can quite a bit of discard.

The matchup is still not in your favour since we're not playing blue, but if I had to say which is better against Combo, it's Junk. You can play Canonist or Militant if you want to, you get Teeg, and you still have discard and Surgical. In red, you only get Slaughter Games, and REB hits very little in combo except Chain of Vapour, but you don't play any permanents they'd want to bounce anyway.

Make the right calls with Therapy - what can't I beat? What's the worst that can happen? Recall that there's very few cards that matter in Storm. Generally, Infernal Tutor is the card they're working towards, since the chances of naturally having AdN is decently low.


-Matt

I always went with Dark Ritual on a name vs Storm of any variety. Usually if they have a broken turn 1 hand, there's a Ritual involved somewhere. Ritual is slightly more dangerous than LED since they can flash back the Ritual with PiF (better they only get one use out of it // can't get the initial engine going). Plus, if you take away the Ritual, odds are they can't go off until you can get a flashback off for the Tutor if they have one. Mana on the cast, action on the flashback is how I like to play it.

White is definitely better vs storm combo and other, 'faster' variants. White versions are also most likely to play Jitte, which combined with Teeg and Mindcensors gives good game vs Elves. Red is the best version vs Show and Tell-based decks. REB is huge there, and Slaughter Games is basically Sneak and Show (et al)'s worst nightmare. Just depends on what you need to / want to beat.

[Bobmans]

I always went with Dark Ritual on a name vs Storm of any variety. Usually if they have a broken turn 1 hand, there's a Ritual involved somewhere. Ritual is slightly more dangerous than LED since they can flash back the Ritual with PiF (better they only get one use out of it // can't get the initial engine going). Plus, if you take away the Ritual, odds are they can't go off until you can get a flashback off for the Tutor if they have one. Mana on the cast, action on the flashback is how I like to play it.

White is definitely better vs storm combo and other, 'faster' variants. White versions are also most likely to play Jitte, which combined with Teeg and Mindcensors gives good game vs Elves. Red is the best version vs Show and Tell-based decks. REB is huge there, and Slaughter Games is basically Sneak and Show (et al)'s worst nightmare. Just depends on what you need to / want to beat.

Red also gives and edge over Miracles and Delver/Pyro based strategies, which is a huge plus for me. The latter often doesn run Wasteland in a lot of cases making Punishing Fire more reliable.
Having that said i am still working on my white list. I played with the 4 Siege Rhino list for a number of games against some variety of decks. Overall i found that Siege Rhino is as good as to be expected, but i did find it tricky against Flyers or True-Name Nemisis. Often i found myself being able to race them, but just by a very small margin. Pernicious Deed was really important here. Anyway i was actually missing Batterskull and Jitte so i decided to switch back to the Stoneforge Mystic configuration. Also i like Sun Titan (with Pernicious Deed) over Recurring Nightmare.

The only thing i am still working out is the sideboard and i am not sure which direction is want to take it in the current meta. I have been seeing a lot of Elves, Miracles, Pyrodude/blade/delver variants, ANT, Dredge, DnT and B(G)x Poxlike. Also expecting more MonoUOmniShow to be around.

This is what i want to run at least.
Board:
2 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
4 flex

Maindeck:
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[thotcrime]

With the Junk vs. Storm MU, don't they just say "Chain of Vapor on Teeg, gg"? Maybe I'll just play x4 Leyline of the Void in every sideboard I bring to my LGS ;D

[Ralf]

As aforementioned here is my latest BUG Fit list for those interested:

Lands (19)

1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Creatures (11)

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer


Planeswalker (3)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil


Artifact (1)

1 Sensei's Divining Top


Enchantment (2)

2 Pernicious Deed


Instant (16)

1 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will


Sorcery (8)

1 Toxic Deluge
3 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy


Sideboard

1 Empty the Pits
1 Hatred
1 Consume the Meek
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay


This list was originally designed to use/abuse Empty the pit against fair decks. It basically reads, BBBB delve your graveyard (i.e 20), smash your opponent's face for 20.
Hatred was added to give an edge against deck you are playing the aggro role.
Toxic Deluge was added to replace Pernicious Deed n°3 as it could be a turn faster than Deed and is another option to deal with huge monster.
Liliana of the Veil was added to replace the 1-of Maelstrom pulse. Both effects are sorcery speed but Lili brings more to the table during attrition war where MP is definitely lacking. The catch-all ability of MP is only relevant against PW with CMC>3 and did not make up for Lili's power.
DRS was added to replace Ponder n°4 which had replaced the 9th fetch. It embodies veteran n°5 and also acts as grave hate and life gain. It has improved mulligan and RED MU by a very few margin but still, improvment is improvment.
Consume the Meek was added as Pernicious Deed n° 4,5,6 and 7. Its ability to deal with manlands at instant speed is REAL.

I'll post sideboard tables later.

If you have any questions/comments, feel free to raise your voice !

[MD.Ghost]

@Ralf: Thanks for your list - do you find that the playset of wish is needed (besides force pitch)? I feel that 3 should be enough.

For Wish-Board:

Wake the Dead for can be another Target to get some Explorers(Lands), Archmage (Persist), Strix (Draw) and opens more "EtB" Cards like Kitchen Finks, Thratusk etc. I think "Hatred" can be the right slot for "Wake the Dead".

Another card i liked from my old UWx- Cunning Wish days: Noxious Revival, thanks to Phyrexian mana it is "free" and doubles your 1off cards.

Overall i feel that some more creatures aren't a bad idea, since the meta is full of aggressiv decks and also runs some Red Elemental Blasts Main...

Question: Why no Bayou? It seems you can fit 1-2 for some Swamps.

What i like are some uncommon solutions for cunning wish, i can see some nice blow outs if your opponent isn't prepared

My Snap-changes are:
-2 Swamp
+2 Bayou
(see above)

-1 Cunning Wish
+1 Snapcaster Mage
(with so many spells one copy of Snappy seems spicy enough)

-2 Jace
+1 Liliana
+1 Garruk Relentless
(i don't like jace with so many REBs and cheap, aggressive beaters - so i feel more "fight them back" stuff is needed, can also be +1 or 2 Kitchen Finks to survive early swings)

-1 Golgari Charm
+1 Dimir Charm
(With the new Monk, Golgari Charm isn't good enough anymore, with deed and deluge you have some better sweepers if needed)

Side:
-1 Hatred
+1 Wake the Dead
-1 Consume the Meek
+1 Noxious Revival
-1 Duress
+1 Flusterstorm
(Hatred isn't good enough for me, i also cutted Consume the Meek because you need 8 or 3+5 Mana; it seems better to "rebuy" Removal or other Stuff with Noxious or drop Creatures with Wake the Dead if more defense or value is needed; I like Flusterstorm so 2 copy seems better than one more discard, with Thoughtseize and Therapy you have 6 discard spells game 2 and 3 if needed)

[Ralf]

@Ralf: Thanks for your list - do you find that the playset of wish is needed (besides force pitch)? I feel that 3 should be enough.

For Wish-Board:

Wake the Dead for can be another Target to get some Explorers(Lands), Archmage (Persist), Strix (Draw) and opens more "EtB" Cards like Kitchen Finks, Thratusk etc. I think "Hatred" can be the right slot for "Wake the Dead".

Another card i liked from my old UWx- Cunning Wish days: Noxious Revival, thanks to Phyrexian mana it is "free" and doubles your 1off cards.

Overall i feel that some more creatures aren't a bad idea, since the meta is full of aggressiv decks and also runs some Red Elemental Blasts Main...

Question: Why no Bayou? It seems you can fit 1-2 for some Swamps.

What i like are some uncommon solutions for cunning wish, i can see some nice blow outs if your opponent isn't prepared

Hello Ghost,

Happy new year ! (and happy new year to everybody)

1) Playset of CW is mandatory (unfortunately) like in Scapewish with BW. It is your bread & butter.
2) Wake the dead is nice but space is very very tight. Each card has its own purpose in the current metagame.
3) Thanks for "Noxious Revival" I have forgotten this card. But what to cut ?
4) No bayou ! I spent several days tweaking the mana base to make it reliable. Going down to 19 lands was made possible if you make this sacrifice. You'll find that keeping a 1 fetch/land opening hand is only possible if you have access to a blue source (dual or island) because you'd rather cast a cantrip first to secure your next land drop. As soon as you have access to 2 lands or more, bayou is no longer needed as any combination of tropical island/underground sea is enough to cast anything.

4 swamps is another choice:
- Current metagame is taking profit as much as you do of the first veteran trigger but not afterwards
- Due to so much cantrips, you'll trigger veteran at least twice or three times a game. 8 basics are here to take profit of them while improving your draws/card selection afterwards. It also makes your CW better overtime as with more mana you'll be able to wish + cast your most powerful wish target during EOOT.
- Finally, 4 swamps is reliable enough to be able to cast your main wincon (Empty the pits) in almost every game especially against "wasteland" decks.

[Ralf]

My Snap-changes are:
-2 Swamp
+2 Bayou
(see above)

-1 Cunning Wish
+1 Snapcaster Mage
(with so many spells one copy of Snappy seems spicy enough)

-2 Jace
+1 Liliana
+1 Garruk Relentless
(i don't like jace with so many REBs and cheap, aggressive beaters - so i feel more "fight them back" stuff is needed, can also be +1 or 2 Kitchen Finks to survive early swings)

-1 Golgari Charm
+1 Dimir Charm
(With the new Monk, Golgari Charm isn't good enough anymore, with deed and deluge you have some better sweepers if needed)

Side:
-1 Hatred
+1 Wake the Dead
-1 Consume the Meek
+1 Noxious Revival
-1 Duress
+1 Flusterstorm
(Hatred isn't good enough for me, i also cutted Consume the Meek because you need 8 or 3+5 Mana; it seems better to "rebuy" Removal or other Stuff with Noxious or drop Creatures with Wake the Dead if more defense or value is needed; I like Flusterstorm so 2 copy seems better than one more discard, with Thoughtseize and Therapy you have 6 discard spells game 2 and 3 if needed)

Before making any changes, play the deck !
15 days of 6 hours a day of paper magic with my team should not be overlooked.

Hatred is a must have against combo & control. It could also be the difference between a draw and a win.
Consume the Meek is also mandatory to deal with manlands and could lead to some big blowouts.
As long as Boseiju is played by S&T decks, duress/TS > flusterstorm. Flusterstorm is also weaker because of veteran triggers...
The new monk will not likely be played as much as Pyro because 3CMC is a lot in Legacy.
I used to be playing with 2 or 3 lili instead of Jace, but Jace is eventually more powerful even with red blast effect. Furthermore, Jace is sided out a lot vs Tempo decks G2 & G3:
1) Jace is a wincon
2) Jace + Glen = infinite non creature counter magic
3) Jace is better in reactive decks which my list belongs to (not to mention that he also makes my late CT a 1 mana removal)
4) You won't always be able to +1 Liliana without hurting you quite a bit.

The deck was tuned to cope with (what my team have access to), sideboards included:
- U/R Delver
- Patriot (delver & pyro)
- TEMUR Delver
- Miracle
- S&S (sneak show)
- Elves
- Storm (ANT)
- Merfolk
- Maverick (without Marit)
- Jund
- D&T
- Dredge

Snapcaster could also be included but he will need quite a lot of testing. And unfortunately he cannot replace a cunning wish because as soon as you play the deck, you'll find that you want a CW in your opening hand or within the first three turns.
Noxious revival seems better to rebuy a card.

[BTY]

Sorry I'm a little late to the punch here but if the storm player knows what you are on they will typically play out their LEDs to protect them from discard which makes dark ritual a better name if you are trying to hit their fast mana.

[sdematt]

Against Storm, that does happen, but they risk getting hit by Decay as well, depending how long the game goes on.

The thing is, the fast mana doesn't do anything without those few cards to go into.

As for Chain of Vapour, it's true. But ideally, you've stripped a card or two from their hand and have Teeg online. They'll need time to build back up before they Chain then go off. Since we have Deed and Charm, it also means they HAVE to be on the tendrils route since Empty is far too risky. With the lifegain in the deck, hopefully you make an easy Tendrils for 10 out of reach and make it increasingly difficult for them to win. As a non blue deck, that's all you're trying to do. You're trying to close off different avenues and force them down the worst possible path they could take to combo. If you're blue, you don't have to worry.

-Matt

[Gruby]

Hi, it's me again :) I'm thinking about something like that

4 Veteran
4 Siege rhino
2 Kitchen finks
2 Eternal witness
1 DRS
1 Scooze
1 Wood elves

3 Deeds
1 Rec nightmare

3 STP
3 Abrupt
4 Zenith
4 therapies
1 Diabolic intent

20 lands + karakas

This leaves few free slots (about 4). From planeswalkers in color I own 1 Lilly of the veil and 2 elspeths knight errants.

Any advices?

PS How to make this "deckbox" when typing a deck? :)

[Bobmans]

Thanks for all those lists, I appreciate it. From what I'm reading it sounds like Junk Pod doesn't really work which is a shame. I would still like to try it but I'm not going to have a developed meta to get good testing in for awhile, and while I have a lot of ideas I'm inexperienced in Legacy so many of those ideas probably aren't workable in practice. A couple weeks back I ordered most of the cards for BUG Pod (in Modern we experiment a lot with adding blue, no one has ever pulled it off, but I decided to pull the trigger on getting the cards to give it more tournament testing) and those carry over to BUG so I think I'll focus on that starting with the Zach Schultz list in the primer. I am really liking the Sylvan Library idea mentioned before though... do you think it's unreasonable in BUG to run Sylvan Library over Brainstorm given no FoW at the moment and that Brainstorm is often only a 2 of in the first place?

I'd prefer BUG Pod over Junk Pod aswell, but Junk Pod with Stoneforge Mystic can go really really broken. First getting SFM on the table and fetching equipment. Untap, drop the equipment and fetch a three drop. With a persist creature in the 3 and 4 range you can dig up every bomb in your deck, while your opponent is probably having trouble with the Batterskull alone. That said, blue offers some amazing tech and with some smart play you can be doing really weird shit. Blue has some solid tech to interact with your opponent.

As for Brainstorm vs Sylvan Library, i do not think the two should be compared. Brainstorm combined with shuffle effects can be really powerfull. Brainstorm digs up answers, not necessarily being FoW. Brainstorm hides key cards against discard. Brainstorm with shuffle effects can shuffle away unwanted cards and reset your top. While Sylvan Library actually give you card advantage it does not do it at instant speed, but does it every turn. Also running both Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library can be very counter productive. You might want to consider Sensei's Divining Top aswell since you can protect it from Pernicious Deed and opponents removal. If you want to run Trinket Mage then i want to suggest running SDT along with Brainstorm. If do not want to run Pernicious Deed then i want to suggest 1 Sylvan Library, a bunch of Brainstorms and leaving Trinket Mage at home. Also in the last case Dryad Arbor becomes an option.

There are just so many cool things to be doing that i always have trouble figuring out what to play.

[Captain Hammer]

This spoiled card seems like it could be amazing in Nic Fit.

Abzan Beastmaster 2G
Draw a card each turn if you control a creature with the greatest or tied for the greatest toughness.
2/1

Thoughts?


There's also

Whisperwood Elemental 3GG
Manifest a card each of your turns.
4/4

but the casting card maybe too high.

[Bobmans]

This spoiled card seems like it could be amazing in Nic Fit.

Abzan Beastmaster 2G
Draw a card each turn if you control a creature with the greatest or tied for the greatest toughness.
2/1

Thoughts?

There's also

Whisperwood Elemental 3GG
Manifest a card each of your turns.
4/4

but the casting card maybe too high.

Both cards are outclassed by current cards in the existing lists. Courser of Kruphix (along with Sensei's Divining Top) or Sylvan Library and Thragtusk. You don't want to be manifesting away your answers by accident. Also i would play Master of the Wild Hunt over this any day.

[Bobmans]

Btw, has anyone have any experience running Chains of Mephistopheles in Nic Fit, maybe Punishing Fire NicFit in particular? It seems to be solid in Jund lists that run it.

[Paranoid__Android]

Metagame in my local area is changing. A slightly bit. Some decks are the same, but there are new ones. Old ones are: Merfolks and Dredge, and the new ones are The Gate, RBW tempo, BW tokens and RW tempo. Last year my GB Nic Fit did a good job keeping those decks at bay, but I was thinking that problems will be those new tempo decks (they can fetch basics too, and I can't have very big advantage).
I was thinking going with Veteran/Therapy package, with only mass removals, planeswalkers and heavy discard. Main creatures would be Siege Rhinos, Shriekmaws and Eternal Witnesses.

Any thoughts?

[thotcrime]

Hi, it's me again :) I'm thinking about something like that

4 Veteran
4 Siege rhino
2 Kitchen finks
2 Eternal witness
1 DRS
1 Scooze
1 Wood elves

3 Deeds
1 Rec nightmare

3 STP
3 Abrupt
4 Zenith
4 therapies
1 Diabolic intent

20 lands + karakas

This leaves few free slots (about 4). From planeswalkers in color I own 1 Lilly of the veil and 2 elspeths knight errants.

Any advices?

PS How to make this "deckbox" when typing a deck? :)

I'd definitely include a Gaddock Teeg in there, and probably more DRS. You may also consider Phyrexian Tower to help power out those 4 Rhinos.

Oh yeah, no Sigarda love?

[sdematt]

More Siege Rhino, but let me elaborate.

Punishing Fit is likely better against a SFM deck with Jace, since you have a nice and meaningful way to interact with Jace. Awesome stuff, right?

Junk has fewer ways to interact with Jace, which can be a problem. Make sure you're running Thrun and Sigarda, and do be aware that Blood Moon can catch you off guard. Sigarda will do the most work since it will allow you to answer Jace, and they can't meaningfully interact with it. Just make sure to get full value off Therapy'ing away Batterskull is you can't handle it, otherwise, save it for stuff you cannot answer, namely Jace. You should be fine. Deed lays waste to their entire board. Play tight and make sure you don't give them an opportunity to STP your Veteran Explorer in Game 1. Depending on the build, assuming it's more Stoneblade and not Delver, you should take out Veteran Explorer for Carpet.

-Matt