All B/R update speculation.

[death]

Show and Tell requires you have both Show and Tell and a card to show your opponent (and tell him about it). That means you need to load up both on SnTs and stuff to SnT in, which eats up a lot of slots in your deck with cards of which you really only want to ever see one. Oath, by contrast, needs itself and the opponent having a creature, and it's not picky how they get that creature - which means an aggro deck's game plan of putting guys into play and then turning them sideways naturally enables your one-card Emrakul Making Machine. But in case the opponent isn't so obliging, you can run a land (so, see, no spell slots are taken) and maybe some Beast Withins if you want to go deep. Then the rest of your deck is dig and protection and control cards and bam, you have a deck that is very difficult to answer barring luck.

So yeah, Oath is on a whole 'nother level above Show and Tell.

The nice thing about these threads is you get to see who understands the format, and who doesn't.

Maybe we need something to come off the banlist that hurts Delver decks. I would suggest Vampiric Tutor.

Maybe i'm wrong and the format will be utterly broken with 4 Vampiric Tutor, but we can at least think about it.

So yeah, you're wrong. I suggest you reread the bottom part of my post. Learn.

[FoolofaTook]

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

[Meekrab]

If you're gonna do all that you have to take out Wirewood Symbiote or Nettle Sentinel also, otherwise your "healthier more diverse" meta will just be elves and decks trying to beat elves.

Actually, why don't we just play Modern with dual lands grandfathered in?

The results also depend on what you consider different "archetypes," because apparently some people feel that every deck with Brainstorm, Ponder, and 8 fetchlands is the same archetype.

[Wilkin]

I totally disagree on banning Force of Will. Combo gets way better without Force running around. Oddly enough, fast combo decks got better with Treasure Cruise around since those decks often cut Stifles and Spell Pierces.

I never thought of Force being an oppressive card. A card that is card disadvantage and is often sided out vs fair decks.


Cruise is stupid. A 1 mana draw three card. wtf. As mentioned before, you'd think after seeing Tombstalker for a while that they may be more careful with Delve. Nope. Dig Through Time is pretty insane too but I wouldn't ban that quite yet. Not sure if they are going to ban Cruise though. Power level is up there but it doesn't saturate top 8's, the way cards like Mental Misstep or Survival of the Fittest were. I find it so annoying that not only blue gets the best card selection, they now have the best card draw too.

Cruise is the only card I would ban. And for unbans maybe Black Vise.

[Quasim0ff]

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

I imagine your favorite deck is maverick, and are really pissed, because you don't think it's super viable right now?

So many flawed arguments in one post (and this entire thread, tbh). I can always come here and get amused, when I'm bored. Thank you all.

[Dice_Box]

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

[CabalTherapy]

Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

Hilarious post. My personal favourite is the part above. I guess you never heard of Belcher or Spanish Inquisition. Pact SI has a 50% Turn 1 kill rate.

[Lt. Quattro]

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

Yes.

[Meekrab]

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

One would think.

[Amon Amarth]

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

Let's hope so.

[Lord Seth]

https://adayintheloucks.wordpress.co...avingthedream/

Didn't read like that to me, but it was a while ago, so maybe I just don't remember it well...

Yeah, I definitely don't read this as "a blog entry of some MODO guy who quit Wizards because he tried to be productive, but they wouldn't let him and moved him to DotP instead." They were letting him be productive and were apparently happy with what he was doing, but his supervisor (correctly) noted he wasn't happy and tried moving him to Duels of the Planeswalkers to see if that would improve things for him.

If I were to take any criticism for Wizards of the Coast from that blog post, it would be that the work environment isn't very good (at least in the digital development portion he worked in), and that causes people who actually do want to go in and legitimately fix problems to become discouraged and burn out.

[mikeshimoji]

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

I'm a total non-blue player, do think that something should be done supporting non-blue cards, hope that treasure cruise (or tnn, maybe delver?) will feel the axe and I still fully agree with this.

Force of Will is very much encouraged by me. It is brilliant design, card disadvantage, powerful enough but not oppressive. I just wish there were fantastic pitch spells in other colors, but that's beside the point.

[jmonk]

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

no thanks, I would rather not play modern.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You've set three wonderful reasons into this world to not waste your spare time and energy as a nightshift-worker (afaik at least; sorry if I took you wrong reading about it in another thread) in this forum or, god forbid, on a stranger like me, rather than your family.

Sorry for my bad English, but I'm not sure if I get the message; I hope that you're not equating the life necessity of nightshift overtimes with Magic events.
Even if I'd be a worker by the belt conveyor, still the tourneys brought me very little pleasure with their 135% man-hours production of Ponder after Ponder after Ponder in a five-year plan for cantrips.


довольно Размышления

[YamiJoey]

Ban Force, unban Frantic Search and Mind's Desire WOOOO!

[Quasim0ff]

Ban force, unban MANA DRAIN.

[Chatto]

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

(...)

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

(...)

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

(...)

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

(...)

LMAO, you can't be serious right? I played a blue-based deck once, and it wasn't for me, but these examples just don't make sense (no offence btw). I do however agree something must be done about blue-dominance, but not by banning the blue shell or the other aformentioned cards!

I hope other colors will get some power back in future releases, or even by unbanning some cards. To me the main problem would be: which cards to unban? A lot of cards were banned before I got 'seriously' into the game. I never saw them in action, never played in that meta, so I only know the stories.

Power cards are named power cards for a reason, but unban some of them for, let's say, a brief period (call it a paroll-time) and see how the meta reacts to it. Surely a lot have changed since some of those cards were banned. Perhaps the powerlevels have changed, even dropped. It is possible. (as a Goblin-fanatic, my personal favorite would be Goblin Recruiter; t2-kills aren't that spectaculair these days, but stacking your deck is - so unbanning RC will probably never happen-)

Just my two cents

[Lemnear]

Sorry for my bad English, but I'm not sure if I get the message; I hope that you're not equating the life necessity of nightshift overtimes with Magic events.
Even if I'd be a worker by the belt conveyor, still the tourneys brought me very little pleasure with their 135% man-hours production of Ponder after Ponder after Ponder in a five-year plan for cantrips.


довольно Размышления

I did not. I said that your remaining freetime with nightshift overtimes and 135% manhours is probably too precious to waste it here and on a format you do not enjoy.

[AznSeal]

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

You're just trolling at this point lol.

[Barook]

For what it's worth, there's a Day 2 breakdown of the SCG Open:

Let's see how this plays out