Miracle Control

[KZhang]

Keranos back to the sideboard again?

so essentially, if we were to summarize the changes to the meta:

1) Stifle and Wastelands are going to be more prevalent
2) Resurgence in BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, RUG (more Lilianas)
3) More Combo Decks?

[sdematt]

I think combo will be worse as there will be more Hymns and Spell Pierces in thine meta.

-Matt

[twndomn]

Keranos back to the sideboard again?

so essentially, if we were to summarize the changes to the meta:

1) Stifle and Wastelands are going to be more prevalent
2) Resurgence in BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, RUG (more Lilianas)
3) More Combo Decks?

Go back to page 260 of this thread. Council's Judgement was released around page two hundred fifty something. It's just a massive rollback, go backwards about 70 pages.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol/page260

To be precise, you can probably just pick up this list and that MU analysis and that's really it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post823080

1. is correct (and unfortunately mongoose)
2. it's really just Shardless BUG
3. combo will be about the same, but all blue heavy combos (show and tell, high tide) will pack Dig.
4. once people have enjoyed MD red blast effect, will they let go and go back to the days without it?

[YamiJoey]

As a huge advocate of Keranos *advises everyone not to find his previous post where he said he thought it was too cute* I think it's just not good enough. I think we basically need our 5 main win cons, 3 Jace, 1 Entreat, and then two, maybe three more in the board for against decks where we really need a clock, such as Storm. That consists of 2 Cliques and an Entreat for me at the moment, but I am definitely interested in cutting the Entreat.

Also; the 9th cantrip is baller and awesome. I strongly suggest people try it. We play some of the most broken cards ever printed. All we have to do is find those + Lands and we will win every game of Magic ever. From "You don't play Spells", to "4-1 you for 1 mana at Instant Speed", and "Demonic Tutor every turn until I have 7 cards in hand, you have zero, and now you don't draw Spells". We even get the luxury of playing actual Counterspell, and seeing as absolutely no-one is going to start playing Thrun any time soon, we basically don't care about any cards anyone plays after about turn three onwards, as we will be able to kill it forever at some point.

[sikariok9]

Hi all,

I'm new at this forums (writing, not reading) and also new to the miracles deck. I recently started building one, and I would like if someone can discuss my current list. Here we go:

Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [RTR] Hallowed Fountain
2 [CHK] Plains (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
5 [IN] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MM] Counterspell
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AVR] Terminus
3 [V13] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [KTK] Dig Through Time
1 [CNS] Council's Judgment

// Sideboard
1 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
1 [MM] Misdirection
1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
1 [AL] Helm of Obedience

Thank you all and god bless Wizards for the TC ban!

PD:Sorry if my grammar is not perfect, I'm not a native speaker.

Lukas

[twndomn]

Hi all,

I'm new at this forums (writing, not reading) and also new to the miracles deck. I recently started building one, and I would like if someone can discuss my current list. Here we go:

Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [RTR] Hallowed Fountain
2 [CHK] Plains (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
5 [IN] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [LG] Karakas

Welcome.

1. Lands
I am going to assume Hallowed Fountain and strange fetchlands are for budget reasons, Ideally please run Flooded Strand and Scalding Tarn. Academy Rins is not needed.

2. Build
There're many different builds. Your build looks more like this person's
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76145 That list takes TC into account, so you can replace the red blast effects with something else. If I were you, I would just change the SB to that person's SB.

As you can see, Most people either MD entreat with Stoneforge in the SB, or MD Stoneforge with entreat in the SB. It's very rare to run both in the MD; it's not wrong to run both, but if you insist on running both, you can probably run 1 Entreat max in your MD. Almost all the builds don't run Venser. If you insist on running Venser, you have to run a very specific Legend build (different Mana base), maybe without Stoneforges.

[ivanpei]

Academy Ruins and Hallowed Fountain should be Mystic Gates if you can't afford the red splash.

I prefer SFM in the board as opponents usually board out removal. Sfm MD will almost always get removed due to Miracles having very little creatures. MD Sfm is good in metas where it's a bit budget (ie alot of Tribal & Burn). Merfolk and Goblins may have problems dealing with SFM. Burn also needs to get rid of SFM and if you can defend SFM with counters it's game over.

In an advanced meta like SCG or GPs I prefer the Entreat Version as removal will be plentiful and a late game Entreat is more devastating than Sfm.

[smurfy]

Hey Guys!

Long time lurker first time poster etc etc you have heard it all before!

Anyway, i'm relatively new to legacy, at least from a somewhat serious/competitive point of view. Though i have been watching the format and learning about it for a year or so now. I recently jumped on the UR Delver bandwagon through mainly budget reasons from Esper Deathblade (i had proxied duals as was playing with friends whilst getting into the format) but have always had a fondness for Miracles partly because at my old LGS thats all my main legacy playing partner played, and also watching Joe Lossett streaming (my friend usually playing very close to his 75).

I find myself now in obvious need of a new deck (thankfully i waited for the B&R update before picking up Volcanic's, as i said, new to legacy no duals yet!) though i've had plenty of fun in the past just proxying duals with games between friends now i can actually play sanctioned legacy events i want to do so (moved across the country) . That being said whilst i have the stability to pick up duals i am frankly very unsure where i will end up in terms of a legacy deck. Esper Deathblade whilst enjoyable was never something that held my attention completely, and UR delver whilst certainly the most fun i've had playing magic in a long time, looking at it objectively was probably just because i was casting Ancestral Recall. Lets not kid ourselves here.

Basically, what im rambling on about here is to ask that (obviously not at a high level) is miracles a deck i can get a good enough feel for with limited amounts of duals? Is the red splash utterly necessary to begin with? Again this is for local level events and whilst i get a feel for the deck going forwards, i have played the deck a fair amount of times and loved the sheer amount of decisions it gives you.

If its worth anything i seem to lean towards the Ponder version of the deck (though i have not had a chance to play that version) and after reading the articles our resident Austrian has published on SCG would most likely look to sleeve that one up. also because he plays Entreat, not Stoneforge, ewwwww

Thanks!

TL;DR
- New to the deck
- Like the look of it but have limited experience playing with it
- do not own duals currently
- is the deck feasibly, in some world playable without picking up all of these whilst i try the deck, rather than dumping a crap ton straight away
Caveat, does this mean there is a version of the deck that is only UW, from what i have seen the 'r' splash is not only easy but very important
- finally, why do people maindeck stoneforge package, yucky!

[Bosque]

I think it's very playable with a budgeted manabase. I'm currently only running 1 Tundra, 1 Volcanic Island and 1 Hallowed Fountain, and a less than ideal fetch base of 4 Flooded Strand, 4 Polluted Delta and 1 Marsh Flats. Running lots of basics could let you use Blood Moon or Back to Basics if you like, and with TC gone we'll probably see a lot more Wasteland coming back.

[goblinsplayer]

Let's not talk about budget options so much guys. This isn't MTGSalvation.

[smurfy]

Understood Goblin, and i get your point of view (i called many a person out on Salvation in the competitive section, prior to realizing it was well, not the best) but unless i've missed something i believe (if im wrong correct me) i am allowed to ask budget questions.

I'd also like to reiterate im not advocating it, looking at it long term or suggesting its a good idea in anyway, simply a fact of not wanting to invest that much when i am not super familiar with a deck. Obviously i don't want to clog up the thread with it, but heck if it generates input and gets a lot of people posting i see that as a net positive long term (though obviously not likely).

I also think that frankly Legacy has to be much more open to those kind of posts due to the simple financial constraints of the format, if we stop people from posting about their deck if its not optimized for financial reasons we are, as a community negatively affecting their view of the format. People play with budget legacy decks all the time, granted not all want to optimize them. Some, like me though do, they just want to find the right deck to put their money into prior to doing so.

Either way im most likely going to be putting together a list of this deck semi optimized fairly soon (next few weeks or so) and will most likely be posting about it and the quicker that gets to being the best that it can the faster i am going to learn if i like the deck or not and either 1) bite the bullet and buy the whole thing or 2) get out of the thread and not bother people with it

Again, i honestly cant see anything prohibiting budget discussion, if i've missed something do let me know and ill delete all this and replace it with some nice Angel token pictures

[Valtrix]

Honestly, I've been super happy with my 1 Batterskull/2 SFM maindeck. Sure, the SFM gets removed a lot of times, but in a lot of games I just get to five mana anyway and cast the batterskull. It's such a must-answer in so many circumstances that I feel the upsides of getting an early Batterskull down are completely worth the "SFM can get removed" downside. You can also save SFM for later with balance to easily keep it alive and then let skull just dominate the board from there. Frankly, my SFMs and Batterskull have been doing most of the work in winning games for me (both from an actually killing them and stability perspective) and I don't think I have any desire to replace them. I replaced the 3rd Jace, the 2nd Entreat, and used a flex slot to make room for the three cards.

[twndomn]

Either way im most likely going to be putting together a list of this deck semi optimized fairly soon (next few weeks or so) and will most likely be posting about it and the quicker that gets to being the best that it can the faster i am going to learn if i like the deck or not and either 1) bite the bullet and buy the whole thing or 2) get out of the thread and not bother people with it

Again, i honestly cant see anything prohibiting budget discussion, if i've missed something do let me know and ill delete all this and replace it with some nice Angel token pictures

tl;dr

You really should just run a competitive version using cocktrice, google: cocktrice mtg

You're not even sure if you like to play Miracles, and this deck requires the patience to get over the learning curve. Miracles is not for everyone's play style. If you're just curious, run some simulations over cocktrice, it requires no commitment, no investment. Running a budget version does not allow you to understand Miracles and you don't get the full and real experience. You probably just get discouraged, by both the learning curve and the extra damage you took from shock-land, which might or might not contribute to your losses.

Running budget decks in a competitive Legacy tournament is giving handicap to your opponent. You're either too skilled against your crappy opponent or you just like to hurt your chance of winning.

Honestly, I've been super happy with my 1 Batterskull/2 SFM maindeck. Sure, the SFM gets removed a lot of times, but in a lot of games I just get to five mana anyway and cast the batterskull. With balance out you can easily keep the mystic alive, and then skull just dominates the board most of the time from there. Frankly, my SFMs and Batterskull have been doing most of the work in winning games for me (both from an actually killing them and stability perspective) and I don't think I have any desire to replace them. I replaced the 3rd Jace, the 2nd Entreat, and used a flex slot to make room for the three cards.

It's definitely not wrong, just different approach. If BBD was doing it during early 2014 and Braverman did it at GP NJ, how bad can it be against the field? That choice was mentioned by Patrick Sullivan. He really appreciates the closing speed of Entreat. Often the 50 minute match time was spent on stabilizing, trading 1-for-1, get CB to stick, when you finally have Skull attacking but not winning the game, you don't have much time left.

I like SFM package in the SB the most, personally. If you read all the other threads, when they mention SB against Miracles, almost all of them want to take out creature removals for more permanent removals, the CB hate. That's when SFM package shines.

[sikariok9]

First of all, thanks all for your help and ideas.

1. Lands
I am going to assume Hallowed Fountain and strange fetchlands are for budget reasons, Ideally please run Flooded Strand and Scalding Tarn. Academy Rins is not needed.

As Metallica said, "Sad but true", I currently don't have the red sources (actually I only need scalding instead of mistys)

As you can see, Most people either MD entreat with Stoneforge in the SB, or MD Stoneforge with entreat in the SB. It's very rare to run both in the MD; it's not wrong to run both, but if you insist on running both, you can probably run 1 Entreat max in your MD. Almost all the builds don't run Venser. If you insist on running Venser, you have to run a very specific Legend build (different Mana base), maybe without Stoneforges.

I like this idea, I will try to fill the SB with the stoneforges pack. What should be getting those 3 slots? Maybe the 4th counterbalance and 2 ponder? the 4th terminus is absolutely necessary?

And what do you guys think about the enlightened tutor sideboard build? I find it very strong with counterbalance and to find heavy locks (also that's why I run academy ruins, for all the artifacts on the SB) How many SFM would you add to the SB? I'm finding very difficult to open up room for them!

Thanks a lot!!

[Mackan]

Honestly, I've been super happy with my 1 Batterskull/2 SFM maindeck. Sure, the SFM gets removed a lot of times, but in a lot of games I just get to five mana anyway and cast the batterskull. It's such a must-answer in so many circumstances that I feel the upsides of getting an early Batterskull down are completely worth the "SFM can get removed" downside. You can also save SFM for later with balance to easily keep it alive and then let skull just dominate the board from there. Frankly, my SFMs and Batterskull have been doing most of the work in winning games for me (both from an actually killing them and stability perspective) and I don't think I have any desire to replace them. I replaced the 3rd Jace, the 2nd Entreat, and used a flex slot to make room for the three cards.

Im glad you are one of the few that realize that if Stoneforge Mystic gets killed or Batterskull gets Thoughtseized it's still FINE. Like you said a turn 5 Batterskull is great pretty often (and with all the basic lands and swords to plowshares, realistic). You allways end up a card however they answer it. SFM is a powerful card and including it maindeck is not wrong. It's however not something Miracles want or need. In miracles you want answers, answers and card-advantage/filtering. As soon as you add proactive cards with narrow applications you make the deck worse. This is the main difference between Miracles and UWx Stoneblade where you present a clock and hope to get there instead of durdle for as long as possible. With the risk of drawing blanks miracles can't afford to spend many slots on actual win-cons. I've been playing with only jace, clique and snapcaster mage as my win-cons and it was fine. It's unfortunatly not realistic in real life magic where you don't have a chess clock (like on modo). Replacing 1 entreat 1 jace and something else for SFM seems fine but it's still another slot or two for less powerful cards (that also happens to run into otherwise dead removal). Entreat the Angels is also a good card in the matchups where the rest of the deck suck. This is a big deal as going over the top is a much needed strategy vs for example Jund where a stoneforge would not be nearly as good. Even though it's not a "real" argument it's a very nice bonus to be able to close the game in a turn or two when going to time. A huge amount of power from only 2 slots is exactly what Miracles wants.

IF you play stoneforge I highly recommend it in the sideboard. You should not look at it as a clock but more like a proactive removal spell vs aggro or something that gives you a whole new angle of attack and inevitability vs control.
It's still worse than swords to plowshares vs most aggressive decks and it's still worse than counterspells vs control but even those cards gets diminishing returns and this is the reason why SFM+Batterskull are truly a great addition to the sideboard.

The reason I played SFM maindeck over a year ago was because I built the deck around Ensnaring Bridge and Thopter/sword. This is a whole different story though.

[YamiJoey]

Budget decks: Strands and Deltas are in KTK, you have no excuse not to play 8 Blue Fetchlands. Shocks are good enough, and $10, you have no excuse. Play 8 Fetchlands, 2-3 Fountain, 2-3 Vents, 2 Plains, 4 Island. That leaves you with 18-20 Lands. Fill the rest out with a Fetch or two, Karakas, Gate, maybe a 5th Island. You don'y need anything fancy, just play the Shocklands. I have NEVER lost a game to it. N - E - V - E - R. People exaggerate their necessity.

You should go and get a Sword of the Meek with your SFM, seeing as no-one is going to be playing Red Blasts.

[Water_Wizard]

I've been losing a lot to Treasure Cruise.dec on MTGO. I'm running pretty well against everything else, but the tempo variants with Treasure Cruise keep popping up.

BUG - standard Delver list w/ Treasure Cruise added
Patriot - standard list w/ Treasure Cruise - some are running Stifle and Probe
RUG - Standard list, minus the Nimble Mongeese
Young Pyromancer - some of these decks are UR, others are URB for Cabal Therapy. The UR decks are also running Swiftspear Monk.

It seems like the games turn into a grind. I'm usually using my REB/PB on Delvers, cantrips, or FOW. In games 2/3, I am taking my FOW out (at least some of them) and Treasure Cruise's CMC is too high for Counterbalance.

It just seems like the games play out, they lay some threats, I neutralize their threats and build some board presence, and then they Treasure Cruise and sometimes chain multiples. It is basically an Ancestral Recall at sorcery speed.

I've considered bringing in RIP, but vs. the Young Pyromancer decks, you are only stopping Treasure Cruise and you are hurting your own SCM.

I'm tired of losing to an 8 CC common in Legacy.

[ORIGINALLY POSTED ON 14OCT14]

Thank you for the ban, WOTC! It sucked not playing Legacy for the past 3 months, but I think I am ready to come back with the banning of Treasure Cruise. I'm looking forward to some diversity in the format

[YamiJoey]

How wasw your 4 Terminus, 4 Swords, 1-2 REB, "You can't play Magic" lock deck losing to UR Delver, exactly?

[sikariok9]

Hi again,

After your advice I tuned up the deck a bit...This is what I got:

// Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas

// Creatures
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
1 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience

Please note that the only Hallowed Fountain I have is just because I don't have the 3rd tundra yet...ALso I need to remove one card from the sideboard (currently the list has 16). Any change (not involving red, I can't afford it atm) that could improve the deck?

Thanks a lot

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Even though Lossett seems to like it okay, I've yet to hear anyone else actively advocate Venser. I've tested it and even in a list with 3 Clique, I would still prefer Clique 4 to Venser 1.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!