[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[o_boogie]

I'd also cut the Charm and add a singleton DTT.

Don't you felt the absence of the 8th cantrip or of a strong finisher like Tombstalker? I do believe that the split TStalker / DTT should work well and I'd let Bob at home and Jace sitting in board.

Thanks for the feedback.

I strongly considered playing Tombstalker for the tournament. My only concern is that everyone is playing Swords to Plowshares. Maybe the happy medium is to just run a True-Name Nemesis; or move Sylvan Library to the board and run Clique main. Will have to test.

[H]

I went to last FNM with BUG Delver and went 3-1. I was incredibly rusty, a couple times fetching the wrong land, or playing things out of sequence. That's what happens when you don't play for over a month,

I ran essentially a stock list with 3 Hymn/2 Thoughtseize (I was expecting more combo), 1 Dimir Charm, 1 Library main, 1 Liliana, 1 Dig, 1 Tombstalker.

I knew I would like the Lili and the Library, the rest preformed adequately. I might try cutting the 2 Thoughtseize and the Charm, and go up to 4 Hymn, leaving me with 2 open flex spots, possibly for another Lili, or something like Spell Pierce.

I lost the first round against Elves, game 1 on a mull to 6, I drop a DRS, Daze his DRS. I end up drawing cantrips and lands, while I trade removal with his Symbiotes and Deathrites, he had more each time and his second Natural Order resolves and I get Hoofed (first got Forced). Game 2, I trade removal with Symbiotes, set up for a Golgari Charm to wipe his board and he fetches a Trop and Swan Songs it. I lose to a hardcast Hoof.

I beat budget Miracles (he doesn't own Force of Wills) rather handily, not much to say here, Liliana resolves and basically ends both games.

I beat UG Turbo Eldrazi, game 1, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Hymn leaves him with 2 lands and a Delver flip later he scoops, as he never drew more lands. Game 2, I Wasteland his first post, Hymn his Titan, and then drop threats he can't answer in time.

I beat RG Lands. Game 1 I scoop, he has double Maze of Ith plus Stage, I had a small window to draw a Wasteland and have a chance, but I don't and I lose. Game 2, I drop a turn 3 Winter Orb catching two of his lands while i had 2 Deathrites. He eventually plays a Choke, but it doesn't matter, Tombstalker and Goyf get him. Game 3 was very drawn out, I am sure I made several mistakes, but I think he made a couple too. In the end, I have to decide if I should hit Wasteland or Dark Depths with a Surgical. I hit a Depths with a Wasteland and chose Depths because he has a Stage out but no Loam yet. He had another Depths in hand, but ends up drawing Loam. He hold back my Goyfs and Stalker with a Chasm and Punishing Fires my DRS, but I land Library, but he has Exploration, Loam, and 2 Wastelands, so I can't keep any lands in play. We go to time and on turn 4 he goes for the win with 2 Punishing Fires and me at 4, after he can't pay the upkeep on Chasm. I Force the second Fire and win at 1 on my turn. Whew.

In the end, I can't really draw many conclusions except that Hymn is good, but we already knew that. More testing to come, but I think Winter Orb is a real contender for a sideboard slot though.

[Fallacy]

I'll be playing a local event this Saturday and will post my results afterwards. Here's the 75:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Hymn

4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana

4 UG Sea / 2 Bayou / 1 Trop / 4 Wasteland / 9 Fetch

SB:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 K Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V Clique

I'm on the fence about having 1 Null Rod AND 1 Pithing Needle... might swap the Needle for a 3rd Disfigure, thoughts? Going into an unknown meta...

[drocker23]

I'll be playing a local event this Saturday and will post my results afterwards. Here's the 75:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Hymn

4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana

4 UG Sea / 2 Bayou / 1 Trop / 4 Wasteland / 9 Fetch

SB:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 K Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V Clique

I'm on the fence about having 1 Null Rod AND 1 Pithing Needle... might swap the Needle for a 3rd Disfigure, thoughts? Going into an unknown meta...

I have a really hard time playing Bayou in a deck with Daze. Not being able to Daze due to Bayou is a problem in my opinion. I feel like the 1 spell pierce is out of place in the main as well. I also don't think Library and Liliana are required in the main since they do not flip Delver of Secrets. Also since you're only running the 1 Tropical Island, good luck keeping a green source in play that also taps for blue mana or can be returned for Daze. I think you need to rethink the mana base, and also, I don't think 4 Hymn's main is any good. If you wanna play Hymn's and Bayou's you're probably better off just playing Shardless BUG.

In a Delver tempo oriented list, which is what you are, I believe you need full access to lands that tap for blue mana and can be returned for Daze. You don't have to play stifle necessarily, but I believe you need another finisher other than Tarmogoyf. True-Name Nemesis did an enormous amount of work for me in the last tournament I played in. I believe True-Name Nemesis is much better than Tombstalker.

[Manipulato]

I have a really hard time playing Bayou in a deck with Daze. Not being able to Daze due to Bayou is a problem in my opinion. I feel like the 1 spell pierce is out of place in the main as well. I also don't think Library and Liliana are required in the main since they do not flip Delver of Secrets. Also since you're only running the 1 Tropical Island, good luck keeping a green source in play that also taps for blue mana or can be returned for Daze. I think you need to rethink the mana base, and also, I don't think 4 Hymn's main is any good. If you wanna play Hymn's and Bayou's you're probably better off just playing Shardless BUG.

In a Delver tempo oriented list, which is what you are, I believe you need full access to lands that tap for blue mana and can be returned for Daze. You don't have to play stifle necessarily, but I believe you need another finisher other than Tarmogoyf. True-Name Nemesis did an enormous amount of work for me in the last tournament I played in. I believe True-Name Nemesis is much better than Tombstalker.

The list above is the classic TA stock list which made the deck so popular & succesfull the whole last year (Till September who TC era)

TA has not the best manabase but all this bb spells need 2 Bayou. Looking that way on the deck is not the way to go.
It's a mixture between a Delver & a blue Jund deck.
The risk of 2 Bayou are worth it because that way the deck just gets so powerful cards like Hymn, Lili & Stalker.

[Fallacy]

I have a really hard time playing Bayou in a deck with Daze. Not being able to Daze due to Bayou is a problem in my opinion. I feel like the 1 spell pierce is out of place in the main as well. I also don't think Library and Liliana are required in the main since they do not flip Delver of Secrets. Also since you're only running the 1 Tropical Island, good luck keeping a green source in play that also taps for blue mana or can be returned for Daze. I think you need to rethink the mana base, and also, I don't think 4 Hymn's main is any good. If you wanna play Hymn's and Bayou's you're probably better off just playing Shardless BUG.

In a Delver tempo oriented list, which is what you are, I believe you need full access to lands that tap for blue mana and can be returned for Daze. You don't have to play stifle necessarily, but I believe you need another finisher other than Tarmogoyf. True-Name Nemesis did an enormous amount of work for me in the last tournament I played in. I believe True-Name Nemesis is much better than Tombstalker.

I've been playing this shell for years with very good success. The MB basically IS the stock Team America list, which of course allows for some flex spots (of which I choose Lily, Library, and a Spell Pierce). 9 fetch and 8 cantrips, plus Library, makes for pretty easy work of finding the necessary lands. It's almost clockwork, first dual played is UG Sea, second Bayou, third Trop... pretty much standard process. I don't agree with your comment about good luck keeping a green source, especially now that Wasteland is underplayed (at least for the time it is) Daze has never been an issue. 2 Bayou is necessary for playing Hymns and Lily. I agree that Lily and Library don't flip Delver, but they sure do loads of work in most MU's. I've tried the Stifle build before, and while it was fun, my experience shows that it doesn't play as strong in late game.

I used to play 2 Tombstalkers MB, and did enjoy that. I found during the Treasure Cruise era I was OK with 12 creatures MB, so I am going to continue with that. 1 TNN or 1 Tombstalker could be the 13th threat, yes, but for now I'm not missing it. We'll see how this weekend shakes out.

[drocker23]

I've been playing this shell for years with very good success. The MB basically IS the stock Team America list, which of course allows for some flex spots (of which I choose Lily, Library, and a Spell Pierce). 9 fetch and 8 cantrips, plus Library, makes for pretty easy work of finding the necessary lands. It's almost clockwork, first dual played is UG Sea, second Bayou, third Trop... pretty much standard process. I don't agree with your comment about good luck keeping a green source, especially now that Wasteland is underplayed (at least for the time it is) Daze has never been an issue. 2 Bayou is necessary for playing Hymns and Lily. I agree that Lily and Library don't flip Delver, but they sure do loads of work in most MU's. I've tried the Stifle build before, and while it was fun, my experience shows that it doesn't play as strong in late game.

I used to play 2 Tombstalkers MB, and did enjoy that. I found during the Treasure Cruise era I was OK with 12 creatures MB, so I am going to continue with that. 1 TNN or 1 Tombstalker could be the 13th threat, yes, but for now I'm not missing it. We'll see how this weekend shakes out.

I respect your opinion but I think you're wrong about Wasteland being underplayed. The bannings have happened and Stifle/Wasteland/Liliana/Tarmogoyf/Deathrite Shaman are coming back in full force. That is my prediction anyway. We will be going back to the era of tempo and wastelanding people out of the game. It won't take long for the format to adjust to the bannings. People will just go back to the same decks they were playing before treasure cruise got printed which was a ton of Delver.

In all fairness, I didn't play hymn to tourach or Bayou in my 75 last weekend, but Game 1's I'd fetch up Underground Sea, Tropical Island, Tropical Island and in Game 2's when I brought Liliana in I'd fetch up Underground Sea, Tropical Island, Underground Sea and never had an issue casting Liliana, still had blue mana for all my blue spells, double blue for True-Name Nemesis and Islands for my Dazes.

You said this:

"I've tried the Stifle build before, and while it was fun, my experience shows that it doesn't play as strong in late game."

I still don't think Hymn is the way to go. Hymn doesn't get any better either the later the game goes on. So what you said is not even an argument for playing Hymn to Tourach. I think Stifle has many more uses than people give it credit for. They're just not mentioned as often because Stifle is less of a blowout card later in the game than it is when you Stifle their fetchland and they stumble. But still, Stifle affects things on the board. Which is more important than what's in their hand the majority of the time. It's really good when they try to Wasteland you and you just Stifle it and they sacked a land for no reason. I'd hate to be Wastelanded out of a game with Hymn to Tourach sitting in my hand. Being able to protect myself with Stifle if need be can make use out of it when the "Stifle your Fetch Land" plan doesn't work. And anytime that their hand is relevant, like with Stoneforge Mystic, you have targeted discard to remove it. I feel like in the matchups where Hymn to Tourach is bad to cast, is a lot worse than games where Stifle is bad to cast.

I think there is an argument to playing Thoughtseize over Stifle. But not Hymn to Tourach. Hymn doesn't do enough to make me want to give up consistancy in a deck that wants to be as consistant as possible. Thoughtseize doesn't force me to play non blue lands like Bayou which don't cast any of my blue spells or bounce back with Daze.

[KobeBryan]

I'm sorry, but after reading that one line, about stifle not being strong as hymn late game, i have to chime in.

Stifle, though not as good late game as is turn 1 on the play, it is much better top deck than a hymn late game.

[jake556]

For my List I -3 Cruise and + 3 Thoughtseize seems great so far and I run the stifle build. Flex spots are 1 Pierce, and 1 Disfigure MD. Late game is tough against infiniteremoval.dek but it happens some matches we just are not favored. I agree Thoughtseize >Hymn in our deck.

[Fallacy]

I'm sorry, but after reading that one line, about stifle not being strong as hymn late game, i have to chime in.

Stifle, though not as good late game as is turn 1 on the play, it is much better top deck than a hymn late game.

Ok, maybe I should have expanded more when I made that comment, because at face value yes Stifle has the edge over Hymn. The Stifle build, perhaps it was my version of the deck, was not as strong as my favorite build which is the Hymn build in the late game. I associate the Hymn build with more Lily's and Tombstalker, which is great late game, especially if needing a bomb to change the board state. I used to play 3 Lily's often and that was the reach in many games. My Stifle build was with Bob's and fewer Lily's, while Bob was great at drawing cards early sometimes got me in trouble late. So what I should have said was I like having more Lily's and Hymns, and Tombstalker bombs versus Bob's and Stifles late. Just preference :)

[drocker23]

Ok, maybe I should have expanded more when I made that comment, because at face value yes Stifle has the edge over Hymn. The Stifle build, perhaps it was my version of the deck, was not as strong as my favorite build which is the Hymn build in the late game. I associate the Hymn build with more Lily's and Tombstalker, which is great late game, especially if needing a bomb to change the board state. I used to play 3 Lily's often and that was the reach in many games. My Stifle build was with Bob's and fewer Lily's, while Bob was great at drawing cards early sometimes got me in trouble late. So what I should have said was I like having more Lily's and Hymns, and Tombstalker bombs versus Bob's and Stifles late. Just preference :)

I never advocated running Dark Confidant in this list. But the Stifle build with True-Name Nemesis version gives you everything you're asking for without compromising your mana base. I don't call that preference. I call that good vs bad.

[Fallacy]

I never advocated running Dark Confidant in this list. But the Stifle build with True-Name Nemesis version gives you everything you're asking for without compromising your mana base. I don't call that preference. I call that good vs bad.

There are many successful versions of Team America, not just yours.

Secondly, I don't think it's right to call card selection or a deck "good vs bad," since there are lots of considerations that go building a deck, i.e. meta, card preference, play style, budgetary constraints, etc. to name a few.

[wcm8]

To be fair , budgetary constraints should be a non- factor when it comes to optimizing a deck. Whether a card costs a quarter or $100 shouldn't really enter into the discussion on The Source.

Looks like we're going back to the old Stifle vs. Hymn debate... There is no definitive answer as to which card is the superior disruption element, and nothing from the new sets really changes their relative positioning. You could even build a deck that runs both, or some of the other in the sideboard. However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning.

Personally my vote goes to Hymn.

And come on people, run 1 Sylvan Library in the main deck!

[Fallacy]

And come on people, run 1 Sylvan Library in the main deck!

I'll cheers to that! Some people run 1 MB AND 1 SB, admittedly haven't tried that but it definitely intrigues me.

When playing with Stifles, say a 3-of for filler, is it safe to assume going to 19 lands is OK since it offers protection from opposing Wasteland? Specifically in a hybrid build, with Hymns and Stifle, Lily, maybe a TNN or Clique or Stalker.

[wcm8]

I'll cheers to that! Some people run 1 MB AND 1 SB, admittedly haven't tried that but it definitely intrigues me.

When playing with Stifles, say a 3-of for filler, is it safe to assume going to 19 lands is OK since it offers protection from opposing Wasteland? Specifically in a hybrid build, with Hymns and Stifle, Lily, maybe a TNN or Clique or Stalker.

With that type of curve? No. You're still trying to cast a bunch of 2 and 3 cmc spells, and still fight through opposing Wastelands. You won't always have a turn 1 DRS, and still need to resolve your Goyfs and Decays consistently... You'll lose far more games to mana screw than to mana flood.

And yes, I am pretty much sold on running 1 library main and 1 in the SB. This makes the Miracles matchup (and many others) much easier. I am actually considering cutting a Hymn or Daze from the main to run 2! The card is seriously that good. I would run Library wayyy before considering any slots of DTT.

[Fallacy]

With that type of curve? No. You're still trying to cast a bunch of 2 and 3 cmc spells, and still fight through opposing Wastelands. You won't always have a turn 1 DRS, and still need to resolve your Goyfs and Decays consistently... You'll lose far more games to mana screw than to mana flood.

And yes, I am pretty much sold on running 1 library main and 1 in the SB. This makes the Miracles matchup (and many others) much easier. I am actually considering cutting a Hymn or Daze from the main to run 2! The card is seriously that good. I would run Library wayyy before considering any slots of DTT.

If you wouldn't mind, what's your current 75?

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

I managed to pilot BUG Delver to a 1st/2nd prize split finish at locals last night. Here is my list for reference:

Maindeck:
4/4/4: Delver/DRS/Goyf
4/4/4/4/4/4: Brainstorm/Ponder/Toughtseize/Daze/FoW/AD
1/1/1/2: Sylvan Lib/Disfigure/Dismember/Lili
4/2/1/4/2/2/4: USea/Bayou/Trop/Verdant/Delta/Misty/Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I played against the following UR Delver (2-0), 12Post (2-1), Lands (2-0), and UWr Miracles (0-0-3; 1-2). In the last round my opponent and I agreed to draw but played for the experience. I won game one on a reasonable keep but then lost 2 and 3 due to partially loose keeps and land issues. In game 2 I flooded and in game 3 I was stuck on lands for a few turns and was forced to double Daze setting me back farther. Overall the deck felt pretty good. The one thing I will likely change going forward is the 4 Thoughtseizes... I think that I have better luck with and like the way Spell Pierce allows me to play. This isn't to say I am just going to slap 4 SP into the deck, but I will probably be adding at least two, maybe three. I would like to echo what wcm8 has been advocating with regard to Sylvan Library, in that the card is awesome. Some times it just acts like a Top finding you the best card each turn; however, in many match ups paying 4-8 life for an extra draw or two is not only doable but puts you in a commanding position. I am not sure that I would want the second in the maindeck but a second copy in the board for Miracles and other grindy match ups seems like a fine plan. I did not have the need to cast my Dismember this week. I was able to counter the only Baneslayer that I was faced with and additionally there were no opposing Goyfs. I am not completely sold on Tasigur, the Golden Fang, but I will give it a shot in testing. As you can see from my above list, I have not added any Dig Through Time, so it is a possibility that 1-2 Tasigur would be exactly "Goyfs" 5-6. wcm8 can you speak to his activated ability? Do you end up activating it at all or are you simply interested in the 4/5 for or ? The frame and dodging Abrupt Decay and Bolt seem tempting enough to me. I am just curious as to your experience so far. Anyway if you have any questions, let me know and as always, thanks for reading!

[Tokyo630]

To be fair , budgetary constraints should be a non- factor when it comes to optimizing a deck. Whether a card costs a quarter or $100 shouldn't really enter into the discussion on The Source.

Looks like we're going back to the old Stifle vs. Hymn debate... There is no definitive answer as to which card is the superior disruption element, and nothing from the new sets really changes their relative positioning. You could even build a deck that runs both, or some of the other in the sideboard. However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning.

Personally my vote goes to Hymn.

And come on people, run 1 Sylvan Library in the main deck!

Here, here! 1 Maindeck Sylvan Library has been insane for me as well.

As far as the Hymn vs Stifle debate goes, my vote is in favor of Hymn. My rationale is that you want to be a very aggressive deck, not a reactionary one, so Hymn is more what the deck wants. I have been playing 3 Hymn, 2 Lilly, 2 Pierce in my build for a long while and it has done very well.

Here's the list I'm running now that TC is banned: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-delver-04-03-14-1/

Edit: On the topic of Tasigur, I am absolutely against it. Not only does his ability cost 4 mana (a lot for this deck as it is), but he's also a LEGENDARY CREATURE. I expect to see a LOT of Death and Taxes in the meta in the upcoming months, and Karakas exists. At that point, you're effectively emptying your yard of Shaman fuel with also putting a bounce-able dude on the field. The incremental card advantage he may provide does not seem worth it at that point.

[wcm8]

If you wouldn't mind, what's your current 75?

My list is fairly standard, but it's the tried-and-true list of what works.

20 Lands (4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
1 Tasigur
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn
4 Decay
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze

SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V. Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 [flex] -- currently it's a 2nd Clique

Explanation of choices:

The maindeck is built purely for consistency against a broad field. I totally understand the validity in cutting some numbers and fitting in stuff like Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Disfigures, other threats, etc., but overall these cards in these numbers have performed well.

As for the sideboard:

Disfigure and Golgari Charm are fairly self-explanatory. Don't forget that all of the modes for Charm are useful -- regeneration vs. Bolt/Decay decks (and sometimes killing unflipped Delvers and un-threshed Mongeese), and removing Enchantments vs. Miracles are common usages beyond just clearing out X/1 creatures.

The 2nd Null Rod used to be a Pithing Needle, but actually I find Null Rod to be much more powerful and worth running 2 copies. It's nice to have such a strong card against Affinity, MUD, Painter (to an extent), Belcher and other storm decks that play LEDS + Lotus Petals, and hits Aether Vial/Equipment decks pretty hard. It shuts down other random cards like SDT, Thopter Foundry, Engineered Explosives, and these decks sometimes also bring in Relic of Progenitus.

Sylvan Library is simply a bomb, and I could see an argument for the 2nd copy going maindeck.

Envelop is occasionally swapped for Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or Thoughtseize, depending upon what brand of combo I expect to see. However Envelop I think is correct for the time being as long as Show and Tell and Miracles remain DTB.

Cage is your token graveyard hate that also has some utility against Elves and similar strategies. Along with your 4 DRS and counterspells, you should have a fair shot at beating Dredge and Reanimator without having to spend additional slots on graveyard hate. YMMV

Maelstrom Pulse could be a Krosan Grip, but I like being able to kill creatures, sweep tokens and also take down Planeswalkers.

V. Clique is another threat against control and combo, and isn't too bad elsewhere. She could sometimes take the Tasigur slot in the maindeck, but I've been happy with Goyf #5 for the time being.

Dread of Night I feel is a necessary slot due to how otherwise poor the DnT/token white creatures matchup can be, but could be swapped for alternatives if there aren't any Thalia/Mother of Runes/Lingering Souls decks in your meta.

The flex slot is whatever -- more removal, more grave hate, more combo hate, etc. At my last tournament I think I ran the 4th Disfigure, expecting a lot of aggro decks.

[drocker23]

"However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning."

1) Abrupt Decay
2) Deathrite Shaman
2) RUG has a lot of trouble with removing True-Name Nemesis and Tarmogoyf
3) Better matchup vs combo because of being able to play with discard spells
4) Better long game with the ability to drain opponent's health with Deathrite Shaman
5) The ability to blow up an opponent's board and keep them hellbent with Liliana of the Veil
6) This deck has room to play bombs like True-Name Nemesis, Tombstalker, or maybe even Tasigur, the Golden Fang
7) Better matchup vs Miracles with better outs to Counterbalance locks
8) Better game 1 matchups vs GY based decks due to Deathrite Shaman
9) Has an easier time surviving stifle and wasteland when we have Deathrite Shaman to still make us mana
10) Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay give us outs to getting Blood Moon'd
11) More outs to opposing True-Name Nemesis that coincidentally works great against Death and Taxes and Elves
12) Abrupt Decay is an efficient way out of a resolved Rest in Peace