DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT play Negator in the maindeck of Deadguy!! He probably doesn't even belong in the sideboard! Yes, he is good against combo and control without burn spells, but we thrash those already with discard and LD! Deadguy has poor matchups against aggro decks, which unfortunatly make up most of this format. Negator is NOT the answer! I personally opt for maindeck StP to help the aggro matchups, but definatly do not play Negator, as it is a classic example of making great matchups a little bit better and bad matchups infinatly worse. Nantuko_Shady, he is not just situational, he is downright awful when he is forced to block and starts eating away at your board, and you WILL be forced into defensive mode against fast aggro.
True and true!Originally Posted by dre4ms
He does not really help against combo (usually too slow) and does little against aggro (other then actually wrecking your board). I don't see the word suicide in the name of the deck...
Member of team punishment.
Grounding "N" Pounding Canadian legacy players since 2004.
War GSP!
What's in a name though, seriously? There's no "High Tide" or "Reset" in "Solidarity" but we play them anyway, no? And we don't play Rabid Wombat in Rabid Wombat.
For what it's worth, Pikula advocated removing the Negators from his board. He didn't think they did enough to improve the combo matchups, and they were too volatile.
QFT. I read Pikula's tournament report he did for Starcity Games. In it he stated how the big change he would make to his deck was the removal of Negator, for the exact reasons Lego Army Man stated. Now I haven't played this deck in about two months, because I just wasn't pleased with the deck, but does the optimal build now run 1x Tomb of Urami? I have seen multiple lists containing it but I was never sure what the true deal was with it. Good? Bad? Iffy?
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
I love Tomb because my buddy drathro randomly threw one in literally five minutes before the first DLD started, and he went on to T8. I gather that Tomb won him one game, and should have won him another (he forgot that it was in play, which can be attributed to lack of playtesting with it.) It's basically there because it will randomly win you games while rarely losing them. Not an auto-include, but you might as well play it if you have it.
Lol I think I remember one of those games where he smashed that Solidarity guy. Wasn't he all like EOT Dark Ritual with no hand and the Solidarity player just look baffled until he activated Tomb and sent a big 5/5 flyer at his face lol. Good times.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
Just for kicks, I actually did a serious test of Deadguy vs Iggy Pop. Lets put it this way, you win 95% of the matches, and I gurarantee no less than a 5% margin of error here.
We played through 3 series of 35 games, myself playing both decks for as long as they've been out, and my friend whom I've taught the basics (and backups) of Iggy Pop, both in the straightforward win (9 mana with access to Intuition and LED or Ritual in the same turn), as well as the backup plans (Infernal tricks) and out of all that, he beat me in this "game 1" 5 of 35 matches (both of us played tournament enforcements, drawing 1 less for mulligans).
After that, he won 1 game, of 70 (myself making SB changes in both sets of 35, and him going between adding bounce for the first 35, and no changes for the second 35).
With siding in the extra scroll, and the 4 Wretchs, he couldn't do a thing. Even with bounce, my damage sources were too bountiful. 4x Wretch, 4x Hyppie, 4x Scroll, 4x Shade, and 4x Confidant, with a set of Duress, Hymn, Sinkholes, Wastes, and the Verdicts still in the maindeck, he literally was sitting on less than 2 cards about 80% of the time from turn 2 on.
THIS is exactly why I say Negator is useless. He's 3 mana, which requires a Ritual even on turn 2, and provides no backup to the decks function. Wretch completely and singlehandedly kills off most of their combo ability, Hyppie continues to punch when hand disruption is tight, and Confidant gives so much card advantage it's insane. Couple this with Shade = Win, and you've got the reason why I say Negator just isn't worth the slots, because we've come to the conclusion we already destroy IGGY, and even Negator can't balance Solidarity's matchup, we just need to play even more aggresive disruption than against IP.
This now brings me to an interesting conclusion. Goblins aren't as common around here, so I've gone with just completely cutting back E.Plague from MD when I see none showing, and I also cut back 2 Wasteland (because I sold them), and against most decks am not really sad I don't have them. At this point, I'm considering putting the 4 Wretch maindeck, in place of the 2 Plagues, 1 Scroll (back to 2MD-2SB plan), and 1 more land (cutting me back from 23 original to 21 total, probably another swamp or fetchland).
I'm honestly thinking this is the most solid the deck is going to be, giving a huge threat range in game 1 against things such as Survival, IGGY, and any graveyard abusers, as well as 4 more threats at 2cc (replacing a land, 2 3cc enchantments that are dead about 75% of the time game 1, and a 1cc artifact, which does the same amount of damage, only as spot removal) and making the deck a solid 16 creatures. I'm pretty certain I'm not going to bother playtesting anything else (short of Grunt), as I see this deck being at it's damn near peak up until we see if Time Spiral has anything new to offer.
I'm still finding it hilarious that a "metagame" deck is now a top contender, having matchups being more in favor than people would like to admit. Sounds like Legacy is continuing it's uphill trend on making solid decks.
I don't think you're completely right. I play with IGGy-Pop about 35/65 against Confidant( in favor of Confidant). Game 1, if the Confidant doesn't play wretches I just wait until I can play IGG and win from that point. Game 2 I board in Confidant and Disrupt and just go for a double Tendrils plan and win. So I suggest you test it against someone who knows more, then just the basics.
I do agree Negator is not really needed against that deck though. I'm testing Jotun Grunt and Negator in the SB though, and I like boarding both in against Solidarity. This changes the deck in to Sui-Black, and it will run over Solidarity. I also like to do this against control decks, playin extra bodies is the way to defeat them( except Rifter.)
Right...Dude you gotta be kidding me here... read between the lines!
Member of team punishment.
Grounding "N" Pounding Canadian legacy players since 2004.
War GSP!
How cool would it be if we did?
I'mma go put a Solidarity in Solidarity, a Nausea in Nausea, and a Rabid Wombat in Rabid Wombat.
No, but seriously. Negator does not belong in this deck to me. Certainly not maindeck. Deadguy Ale is -all- disruption and I'd rather spend my board on a diverse array of solutions to decks that just hit me in the mouth.
The main argument for the Negator seems to be that its good against combo... Why not just play Rule of Law instead... I know it cannot be cast turn 1 with ritual but a turn 1 Negator does nothing if they combo the following turn.
Member of team punishment.
Grounding "N" Pounding Canadian legacy players since 2004.
War GSP!
If the deck is so amazingly worried about combo being a problem, why don't we just put 4 Orim's Chant or Gilded Light into the SB? Both Solidarity and Iggy Pop basically die mid-combo to either, though Solidarity runs FoW when needed. Good chance you've ripped it from their hands before they try going off though, and keeping 1-2 mana open on your turns is relatively easy unless your playing disruption, which is good enough to force them into bad plays, or keep them off good ones.
Negator really isn't favorable compared to just outright stopping them in their tracks, or denying them a chance to randomly kill you. The only problem I see here is that Solidarity can win in response to your play, while Iggy cannot. This forces a predicament of whether or not we want instant speed we can put up against them mid combo, or something to sit on and hope it's not bounced (Ivory mask/ True Believer, for example). Either way, it's gotta be between the 1-2cc range, and hopefully only single W source, otherwise you Time Walk Solidarity casting something like Rule of Law.
The correct Number of cards this deck should have in its SB to combat combo: ZERO
Heavy discard plus yard hate plus heavy LD annihilates every combo deck and I claim that Deadguy has at least 70% against every Combo deck in the format.
If you play cards like Swords to Plowshares MD you should have some slots in the SB to replace them against decks without creatures. For example Gerrard's Verdict. But these cards should be good in other problematic matchups, like Burn or Gro, too.
QFT.
I see a whole page dedicated to the fact that I'm testing Negator, when in fact it's one of many solutions to the problem this deck has: lack of a clock.
Jotun Grunt and Rotting Giant are decent-either way you have to up the fetchlands. To be completely honest, this deck has yet to perform very well recently. I feel the meta has changed enough that we should start looking at other options for this deck to have fair game-maybe creatures aren't what needs to be added.
QFT. That's actually the bulk of my point. The performance of this deck has faltered massively and its time we get to the heart of that matter.
But as for the theory that maybe creatures arent what needs to be added. That's possible, but I honestly can't think of any spells this deck needs to add to shore up it's weaknesses. The biggest weakness time and again for this deck seems to be the lack of a clock. I'm not sure why people assume that if you want a clock, it's so you can beat combo. Red Death's Negators are never sided out against any of the aggro matchups sans burn either. The reason is simple, if you have removal, Negator is awesome even against aggro. And this deck, esp if it ups to 4 Swords would have just as much removal as Red Death.
Anyone attempted to use Soul Spike? If the deck is stuck to a long game, 7cc isn't hard to come by, and if it needs quick hits and finds itself with dead cards and not much of a sideboard option, ditching 2 black cards in addition doesn't seem like a bad drawback. Card advantage should help cover this loss, barring Bob doesn't go Plowing. Just a thought, as I've had instances where I wish I just had damage sources, or better creature removal than Vindicate maindeck. If Goblins start slowing, we could look into ditching the 4 E.Plagues.
Did you switch decks? If not, that's a large testing bias. Not saying that the matchup is good, but I'd imagine it's difficult to play the combo deck in the face of all that hate.
Bonholm's report on IGGy Pop is here. He said his plan was to play out fetches and LEDs and topdeck into any sort of tutor to win-- maybe it was a fluke but he beat the Deadguy player he played against. I know this is something of a tangent, but you have to make sure that you have an experienced player on both sides and are using the right game plan.
I will admit the testing was not done by players competent to play both sides, he's very much lacking when playing Deadguy than I am, mainly because he's incapable of deciding when to use what land destruction, or hand removal, etc.
I will say however, that Deadguy was running NO Vindicates, and 2 Wasteland (Mortify was my maindecked removal, due to Vindicates not being available). This severely hinders Deadguy in the matchup, as both would cripple the manabase to nearly uselessness had I had them. LED would have been the only necessary target, next to lands, and Wasteland keeps the Seas from staying.
I will say that my matchups weren't with 100% competency, but even then, the matchup is highly in Deadguys favor, especially if IGGY's typical play would be to side in Confidant, it only helps Deadguy's clock, and they can use their destruction to get the potential threats out of the way.
Even if it comes down to the opponent needing to topdeck a tutor, there's 8 in the deck, that's a good enough number to make Deadguy's land destruction, hand disruption, and artifact destruction good enough to slow them. Statistics on that would prove Deadguy favorable.
EDIT: Combo arguments like this also further my wants for Cranial Extraction. 4 mana is a good possibility on turn 2, with Dark Rituals. Even if it's not turn 2, the probability of casting it just gets better from that point on, and it's really not a dead card against any deck, especially against things that have a limited threat base, or one that you typically have trouble answering once it resolves. I will test this, and let you all know if I feel it's casting cost is too much of a deterrent.
Why Soul Spike over Spinning Darkness, or Kaervek's Spite? 7 is alot of life to pay from Bob, especially when you're getting rid of 2 other cards in your hand to cast it-I'm not going to get into the thought of trying to hardcast it.
Suckerpunch: In addition to the Negators, I pulled the Plagues out too-for Infest, merely for the fact they board sweep and hit x/2s. It's usually a 3 CMC Wrath of God. I think most people don't realize just how much resource denial this deck plays-there are (in theory) very few permanents to even block the Negator to begin with-if so, they're usually an x/2(if you've played the deck properly of course, and cast your disruption, then there may not be any blockers). The key word on Negator is "Trample". Your resource denial puts them into topdeck mode beforehand. Toss out Negator, sac a few lands, win game(faster than a Shade, I might add).
<rant>
Regardless, I'm done suggesting creatures. To many people on this board would rather copy+paste a list than try something different-and I'm fine with that-but when you don't read the thread, and ask questions that have already been covered on previous pages, you are *NOT* helping to solidify the deck or contribute to the forum, and you are certainly not helping to evolve the format.
</rant>
I feel that had to be said-we've had quite a few (all but) pointless posts in the past few pages, and if we aren't responsible in evolving this deck properly to fit the changing meta(such as all the other decks in the metagame forum), we'll be doomed to the same fate as Landstill-a deck that works in theory but just doesn't put the results out that it should.
Deathwing: Have you tried Cabal Therapy first? It's definitely cheaper than Cranial, and has a slight bit more synergy with the rest of the disruption package. Let us know how it(Cranial) works out in other matchups!
Last edited by laststepdown; 08-27-2006 at 06:10 AM. Reason: I suck at spelling.
I'm pretty sure the Soul Spike suggestion was just sarcasm. Everyone realizes just how horrid that card is.
I love infest, but it has horrid synergy with Hypnotic Specter and Confidant and pretty much your entire creature base. And there are lots of decks whose creatures are too big for Infest to hit, thresh for example. So it can hurt you more than your opponent.
There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)
Reply With Quote