I don't think bog fixes any matchups. Maybe if reanimator and dredge are big in your meta, but it isn't even a great solution against those. It hurts more matchups than it helps by taking up a slot.
I think if you are going to play confinement you need to play more than 1.
Volrath's Stronghold is kind of winmore. It does not provide inevitability because pfire already does that. It is also a colorless land in a 4 color deck. It has some use, but I'm not convinced it is enough.
If you are gonna cut maze and do not have a tabernacle, I suggest Dark depths. It is pretty good :p
2 forest 2 badlands looks weird, sup with that?
61 is fine 62 is probably okay. at 63 I am pretty sure you can cut some. It isnt a hard and fast rule but at some point you do have to stop :p
You do not have a wish board. If you look at Hoogland's boards, you will see that all the cards in the "wishboard" overlap in functionality. This allows you to bring in some of them and have access to others in the board. Or board out the burning wishes if they are too slow I guess.
Well I kinda agree with you on bog. I did play it because in theory it kinda helps with problematic match-ups like dredge, reanimator to certain extend storm (shuts down the PiF way (with knight in play) but storm got many more..). It isn't that bad against maverick and delver in the sense that it buys some time against knight and Cruise if you do not need to play it outright.. but mostly i ended up play it turn 1 :p best application it has of course with knight untapped in the right moment. sounds very conditional to me.
One confinement might be to random. Guess you are right. I think I would like to play two copies of it if I am going to play it.
Volrath's stronghold has been in this deck ever since. But I will put some thought in your argument.
I am not gonna cut maze. maze is like card no 61 and inhibits the slot of "land doing something against creatures" but I found myself more often in situation where I wished I had tabernacle.. here are some examples.. against the dnt dude stuck on 2 lands 2 vials and 4 creatures in play, against the storm guy which produced 14 goblin token.. against any other creature deck because tabernacle slows down the development of their whole game. you can even do some fancy tricks with DD and kill TNN, emrakul and such (not just in theory, i did happen in a significant number of games..lets say 5).
I put some thought in the mana base and even tested versions with lilliana.. but lilliana well in a nutshell I don't like her this much. and you just cannot play 4 color with Knights AND assault/dreams AND Liliana. You just cannot play them all even with 4 mox diamond in your deck because you dont always have a mox. the most terrible thing which can happen in a deck with ~26 lands is to get color screwed (at least in my opinion) and this is a thing in loam. Well in short: I decided to drop lilliana because of "BB" and I like assault way more because it actually gives you one more angle to attack..as hoogland would say. (and it is a huge angle) AND you cannot consider liliana a win condition. I did win countless games due to assault. Even raced TNN :p Who needs to kill it?
Despite the fact that i need "RRR" the only basic I really want is a forrest. And i noticed that a second forrest is just better than the bayou I played. Bayou doesn't provide red mana either but can get killed by wasteland and is affected by blood moon (and nowadys bloodmoon is a thing and wrecks loam if not anticipated). However, with one forest + badlands + plateau i kinda feel save and sound. (to play assault i would still need one more R..but this is ok). Moreover, with basic forest and burning wish I can remove blood moon quite easily. bottom line: i am very pleased with 2 forrest 2 badlands and i kinda like basics (note that every fetch can find the forests). unfortunately verdant catacombs doesnt fetch plateau. so the second plateau is a savannah :7
Yeah, my wish board was bigger but all the redundant cards you can board in dont really help in your worst match ups. and relying on singeltons to improve your matchups... oh well I dont know. Often the singleton is better in your sb anyway because than you virtually play 3-4 copies. the philosophy I try to apply right now is the following: cut all the cards you did not wished for in the last 15 games. In fact i had cards like "pulverize" in my wish board. guess how many times i wished for it in 100 games. i think the wishboard is at its strongest with the 7 best cards. so you even have 8 slots for real sb cards. and you do need them. I recently did cut slaugther games.. because it is more like a win more card.
i want to conquer the world
The stuff you want tabernacle for I achieve with 2x zealous persecution and 2x Sudden Demise (or Pyroclasm). Red is a small splash in my deck and I feel like I play with more creatures so that may not be ideal for your build.
Still, these days I think you have to have a strong reason not to play the dark depths combo.
I am currently playing with maze in the board. I took it out because I had too many lands that could not tap for mana on turn 1, but it is great in some matchups. It moves in and out of the board tho.
I am asking about 2 forests because the second is not necessary. I have played the older Hoogland lists and others and have never needed more than 1. Especially so with burning wish. we have ~0 fear of wasteland, and fetching out 1 forest is almost always good enough against blood moon.
2 badlands might be necessary for seismic assault (which btw Hoogland hasn't played since abrupt decay was printed) but they are quite awkward with KotR. One of them might want to be a taiga as you do not actually have that much black to cast.
About the sb, I mean that if you have a Maelstrom pulse, a chainer's edict and a dreadbore in the board (and want to kill some large creatures) then you'd bring in the dreadbore and the pulse and have edict to wish for.
Actually, I have not tested dark depths + stage yet so I refrain from judging it. It seem to be tempting to have a "fast" clock which does win you the game outright. But still I wonder whether this what the deck needs. A bunch of cards (chalice, assault, DD and to some extend confinement in g1) do win the game outright against certain decks.. but not that fast. And traditionally loam.decks do not lack big critters. The big plus I see is the semi-independence of the graveyard. Can you give detailed insight in your experiences with depths combo in the loam deck?
Well of course you can use other cards to mimic tabernacle but tabernacle is a land. and lands are quite good in our deck. as long as you dont play more than 12 creatures I think the individual power level of tabernacle is unbeaten. Due to being a land it provides so much utility to the deck, which "random" spells cannot.
Well of course the 2nd forest is not strictly necessary and most loam decks wont even have slots to run it. But I do want to play more than one basic land and forests are so much better than the remaining 4 (in my list). You do not strictly need it but its cool to have it :p basic forests are never bad^^
Well, what was hooglands reasoning for cutting assault for some random other card which can most likely also be destroy by decay?
I did understand that you can board in redundant cards of your wish board in g2/g3 but those redundant cards do not improve any match up drastically or do they?
In some games I did test kessig wolf run (primarily in order to trample over TNN). Did you test it? Is it worth a slot if you can afford it? I am not sure yet.
i want to conquer the world
As far as the Dark Depths goes, I run 1 in the main with 1 Thespian's Stage main. You aren't dedicating your deck to this plan, but it can certainly add a very potent win-con. Knight of the Reliquary can find one or both pieces. Thespian's Stage by itself has many useful applications: copy a Maze of Ith, Copy a Wasteland and devestate an opponents mana base, or copy a Karakas when Sneak and Show drops both fatties (have done this). I run a Sylvan Scrying in my board so that Burning Wish can find it and complete the duo as well in the event of an early game draw off either Depth's or Stage. Give it a try, it doesn't take up much space and just makes the deck stronger.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Because of stage's many mentioned (and unmentioned) applications I basically think of The Depth-stage combo taking up 1 slot. And with that 1 slot we allow ourselves to stop caring about losing board states and having ways to win past countermagic and stuff.
It is sort of a different axis than normal creature combat and for the most part invalidates the 4/5 goyfs or army of 1/1 elementals that the opponent spent their time amassing. sure we can fight through those but it is nice not to have to.
About taberncale, I play the board wipes specifically because I often have 1-2 creatures in play and they are more one-sided. In my experience while it is great that the taberncale is tutorable and uncounterable but it never "completes the job". It is less of a board wipe and more of a Sphere of resistance type of taxing effect.
It is not hard to pay for that large goyf and the delver and pass the turn. Then you untap, pay for your dryad arbor and your knight and that is 3 of your lands that are not useful this turn. Sure the situation is kind of artificial and we all have fantasies of wasting the opponent to 0 mana and landing a tabernacle but in my testing with it, it was never both possible and necessary do that.
About wolf run, I think I'd rather just have a man land. Man lands make colored mana and are threats by themselves. they also "trample over TNN" in the sense that they provide an additional attacker.
I don't remember if he had a specific replacement or reason but the RRR mana cost makes you jump through hoops with your mana base and the effect can be simulated with punishing fire.
The wishboard mostly improves g1. When I played it I sideboarded very little because I felt like I never needed to do make big changes. you are right in that the actual wishboard is reactive stuff rather than haymakers and might not be the best use of sb space.
hooglands reasoning for cutting assault:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co..._color/cbfpawa
Basically it is a more fragile punishing fire.
Hi everyone. I think a Loam shell with Chalice, Punishing Fire, and Dark Depths looks attractive right now so I am tinkering with 4c Loam. I briefly played a Burning Wish list but now am trying BOM list. In the maindeck I am currently playing the same spells with the following lands:
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
2x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Wasteland
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
I have cut 2 Wastelands for the DD combo. I recognize that Wasteland is an important aspect of the deck, but I believe the upside of the DD combo is very high having played with it in Maverick, and this is a superior shell for it. While the prospect of the "value Wasteland" is diminished, 2 Wastelands is enough to apply a Loam lock if necessary.
Most 4c Loam lists I have seen play 2 Groves. This is probably correct considering how much competition there is for lands slots, but I cant help but feel a 3rd would be good.
I have also made room for a basic Forest and 2 more fetchlands. Is this too conservative?
Last edited by Seraphix; 02-19-2015 at 11:37 AM.
I've lately been playing a slightly different dual/fetch configuration and have been liking it. I cut the bayou for a Scrubland and changed the 4 Wooded Foothills to 4 Arid Mesa. I have just found that I want to fetch a b/w land so often that this led me to this decision. I have had no problems and have actually found it adds to my consistency to play anything in my hand and wish board. It helps with casting the Council's Judgment out of the board too. For reference I run:
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
4 Arid Mesa
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Your 1x dryad arbor is super important to have access to and the 1x forest can be pretty important in many matchups too. I've been playing 4x Windswept Heath 1x verdant catacombs for a while now because I also need access to my scrublands.
The deck looks super fun to play. Will probably sleeve it up for the local weekly event. Lilly seems pretty bad at the moment. Is the burning wish version a bit better currently?
Lili isn't bad at all. There are decks that you don't necessarily want to see her against, but that has always been true. They're just given different names now and again. On the whole, she's an absolute powerhouse against a vast majority of decks. Yes, she's lackluster against U/R Delver, but even there she's not a dead card. Just not as good as Golgari Charm and whatever else.Originally Posted by Arksz
Burning Wish I have rarely been a fan of. The way you want Burning Wish to function is like a Swiss army knife of calamity. Like a Green Sun's Zenith for sorceries. Unfortunately, the way it usually plays out is that you burn sideboard slots and pay too much mana. Back in the day this used to not be a problem, but other decks are more consistent now, and Loam itself is running less and less red and fewer sorceries. Looking at a few of my related lists, Toxic Deluge and Massacre are the only sorceries commonly found in my sideboards. Looking at a few of my related lists, Punishing Fire and Red Elemental Blast are the only red cards commonly found in my decks. Looking at a few of my related lists, my target land base is about three mana producing lands. It's not a matter of simply fitting Burning Wish in. You have to force a reason to run it.
One alternative to burning wish and lili is a more robust green sun's zenith package. It provides the toolboxy/selection/consistency thing that burning wish and Lili do, but is also live earlier.
Our fastest opening hands include a mox diamond and the hands with a green sun (for dryad arbor) are the second fastest ones. More green sun's means more of those openings
Biggest difference is that you tend to match threats with threats rather than with answers
I can definitely see how burning wish is slow. I will try the lilly version. I am currently on UB Tezzeret and LOVE me some chalice of the void.
Agreed. What would your list currently look like?
Hey guys, I have a small tournament next weekend and wanted some input on my list.
I keep adding and removing stuff and I keep track of myself sometimes.
2x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Forest
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Taiga
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Cabal Pit
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Devastating Dreams
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
1x Vindicate
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
I have a couple of flex slots that I keep experimenting with, they are the courser of kruphix, huntmaster of the fells, Devastating Dreams and vindicate. Each of this cards has done wonders but also under performed some times, I usually play council's judgment in my junk build, but I don't want to stretch the mana base in 4Color. Since TC was banned I re-included the cabal pit and sent Bojuka Bog to the sideboard.
My sideboard is usual the following(unknown meta):
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cataclysm
2x Choke
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ethersworn canonist
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
It seems to me that not many people are really interested in this kind of deck. Nevertheless I will try to play 4c Loam as much as possible on Modo until GP Lille this summer.
To Pilhas:
Huntmaster and Thrun are fine cards. They are really good in any fair matchup. But you allready have Loam and Punshing Fire to grind out every opponent who is trying to play a fair game of magic. So you kind of overload in these matchups.
I do like Courser. He does everything you want. Makes sure that you hit your landdrops, gains some life and is your green Dark Confidant.
I would definitely play some Lilianas. This card is great in the fair matchups, takes over a game on its own, is not completely dead against combo and is your only way to handle a True Name Nemisis.
Please keep playing the deck. It is such a blast to play, i love it.
Thanks for the input, I kinda felt that huntmaster was improving the fair matches and will probably cut it, thrun just gave me too many games for me to play without him.
My problem with courser is that I rarely zenith her, always feel like knight will do more so I end up fetching him. When courser is in play though, the games are ridiculous though.
I really like the list except for those 4 slots, I keep messing with them and still haven't found the right configuration.
I have been playing this kind of deck since GP Paris and I love it, although I used to play a Junk build with lilianas over Punishing Fires and a couple of Council's Judgement, and after I add the 4th color I lost my love for her. While there was TC around I played with Golgari charm main but now it doesn't make much sense.
Finding a couple of cards that are great against Omnishow or Reanimator would be nice
Comparing to the list I played at BOM, I only changed two spells.
I did cut the Tarmogoyf and one Dark Confidant. I added one Deathrite and one Courser.
Playing 4 Leyline of the Voids should be good enough against Reanimate. Probably the best hate you could ask for.
OmniShow is different. I am also looking for ways to beat it. Gaddock is not as effictive here. Slaughter Games on Show and Tell should normally seal the deal, but is often times too slow.
Dropping Ethersworn Canonist off Show and Tell and destroying the Omniscience with Golgari Charm requires two cards.
Dropping Qasali off Show and Tell, lets them cast Emrakul before having priority to destroy the enchantment.
Reclamation Sage is way better. Play him. In addition it is way better at fighting Blood Moon in other Matchups.
I thought about playing Nevermore to fight OmniShow.
Sage or a oblivion ring?
I tend to like small Etutor packages in sideboards of decks with white. Are you the winner of BOM that everyone bases the list from?
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