[Deck] Goblins

[dissy]

His deck already run Kinesis. That's why that wasn't the discussion.

I know. I see no reason to play any more creature destruction than already does. So iám just saying that pyrokinessis is superior in a lot of ways.
So i don't think that dismember is a good add on or replacer. Perish is decent but i still rather play pyro

[Sandro95]

I know. I see no reason to play any more creature destruction than already does. So iám just saying that pyrokinessis is superior in a lot of ways.
So i don't think that dismember is a good add on or replacer. Perish is decent but i still rather play pyro

I'm still looking for the best way to fill out the last two slots. I'm not sure that involves more board wipes or even any removal, but it might. What I need to figure out is what matchups I'm trying to improve, and what usually decides the outcome of those matches. Versus Miracles I realized Entreat the Angels was the card that won them the game most often, so I added a singleton Earwig Squad to strip them from their deck. Now I need to do something similar verus Shardless BUG/Deathblade/Team America, or whatever deck I strive to beat.

[ScatmanX]

Now I need to do something similar verus Shardless BUG/Deathblade/Team America, or whatever deck I strive to beat.

If it's those decks you want to dedicate your last 2 sb slots then Imo Dismember could be a good choice. Don't like Kinesis against none, except bug delver.
From my experience the games tend to go long against midrange bug, so I try to out ca them, or just get rid of their best threats. Resolving squad against any is almost gg.
With that in mind you could probably try a 2nd Squad, that us awesome in other mu's as well, and a dismember, that is a cheap removal working on to wars the plan of Prowling squad quickly.
Could also be wrong, but that is how I'd play it.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Pyrikonesis beats those cards easily in my oppinion. Removing a red card is a cost but with all the CA in our deck that shouldn't be a problem i guess.
And you can take out multiple creatures at the same time against elves its verry strong. And it is an instant so you can wipe the board of elves end of their turn.
and still have mana available to play your own creatures. perish is sorcery speed and they probably dont even care. and about taking out goyf when i play against goyf it almost all the time is a 6/7 due to cards like tarfire and eather vial in your graveyard. so most of the time i just keep blocking it or i bounce with stingscourger.
Against bug perish still doesnt take out their delver wich is their greatest threat because we cant block it and need a answer fast. Pyrokinesis takes out 2 flipped delvers:)

Interesting. I find that Delver of Secrets is the opening I prefer seeing out of BUG. It's their most fragile threat. There is even periods of time where it dies to Gempalm Incinerator for 1, and more hilariously, trades with Goblin Lackey. The creature I actually fear the most is Deathrite Shaman. I find that when I kill these early, things get easier. Killing a Deathrite Shaman reduces their mana sources, their ability to gain life and their ability to pressure us by "waiting." Don't get me wrong, Tarmogoyf is big, but we can chump and then steal the game- Like always.

I'd be curious to hear other people's opinions as well, because advice for this match-up has come up multiple times in the past, not just from me.

[GoboLord]

The most elegant SB card against BUG that I have Seen so für is Carpet of Flowers as it kind of acts like Aether Vial in this MU. The Same us True against Patriot and other Stoneblade decks. Whenever they counter May T1 Vial or remove my turn 1 Lackey I am extremely far away from resolven the spells I need to win: Matron, Ringleader and Tuktuk. I like that we can play it in our first Mainphase and then get mana in the second.

[Stevestamopz]

The most elegant SB card against BUG that I have Seen so für is Carpet of Flowers as it kind of acts like Aether Vial in this MU. The Same us True against Patriot and other Stoneblade decks. Whenever they counter May T1 Vial or remove my turn 1 Lackey I am extremely far away from resolven the spells I need to win: Matron, Ringleader and Tuktuk. I like that we can play it in our first Mainphase and then get mana in the second.

If you're splashing green to play carpet of flowers, why not just play tin-street then? Tuktuk is just way too slow against these decks. You need to deal with a jitte or a batterskull asap, otherwise they will just run away with the game. If you have to run a dude into a stoneforge activation -> batterskull on turn 3, so be it. At least that way you can get rid of it permanently. They gain 4 life, you lose at worst a lackey or a piledriver, but they're down essentially half their deck.

[GoboLord]

I am playing both: TSH and Tuktuk, because I am also Maindecking Kiki-Jiki. TSH is in MD though.
//EDIT: Also, shatter Goblins with flash, or off Lackey/WInsigators are good. So, I split these slots for flexibility.

-----------------------------------------

Tournament report
6 Players, 3 Rounds, 1st place with 2-1.

List:

MANA (23)
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
2 Taiga
6 Fetchland
6 Mountain

4-OFFs (28)
4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Tarfire
4 WInstigator
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

OTHERs (9)
2 Piledriver
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Settler


Round 1: UWr Miracles (2-0)
Round 2: Elves (1-2): I lose both games due to baking a wrong decison (in both cases I tap out for a creature and get killed in return.)
Round 3: Patriot (2-1): I lose G1 against a jitte-wielding TNN which connected as early as turn 4.

[Sandro95]

Tournament report
6 Players, 3 Rounds, 1st place with 2-1.

List:

MANA (23)
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
2 Taiga
6 Fetchland
6 Mountain

4-OFFs (28)
4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Tarfire
4 WInstigator
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

OTHERs (9)
2 Piledriver
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Settler

Question 1: How do you feel about Winstigator without Chrome Mox?
Question 2: How's Carpet of Flowers been working out for you?

You're also not running MWM, I'd say it me be better than piley with so many chieftains. Thoughts?

[potatodavid]

4 Vial
4 lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief

3 Gempalm
3 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter

4 piledriver
2 TSH
3 MWM

1 SGC

3 Taiga
2 Mountain
5 Fetch
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern

Sideboard didn't really matter except for 2 Pyro and 3 KGrip.

SGC over Krenko this time around? Just for the speed rather than the grinding?

[Stevestamopz]

How do we all feel about skirk prospector?

This last decklist Jim Davis posted is found at the bottom of this article; http://www.starcitygames.com/article...The-Field.html
I am currently 59/60 with Jim on the mainboard. (+1 War Marshal, -1 Skirk Prospector).

Back to the topic at hand: I've always felt that whilst old mate Skirky allows you to go bananas with sharpshooter or mana ramp, mogg war marshal is just so good against tarmogoyf and at upping the damage on gempalm that I would rather play the 3rd Marshal then another 1 of. Playing 2 tin-street main is very comforting against a blade/jitte deck, to the point where keeping Jitte counters off with the prospector just seems irrelevant.

So my question fellow goblins players is this.
Am I wrong in this assessment? Are there any matchups where Skirk is better than having a 3rd war marshal? What are your experiences with him?
Is it better to play 2 or 3 war marshal?

[GoboLord]

Question 1: How do you feel about Winstigator without Chrome Mox?
Question 2: How's Carpet of Flowers been working out for you?

You're also not running MWM, I'd say it me be better than piley with so many chieftains. Thoughts?

(1)
The deck is a little less explosive without Chrome Mox. I don't necessarily regret not being able to cast Warren Instigator on tun 1. I do miss though the opportunity to cast Goblin Chieftain on turn 2 and Chalice of the Void on turn 1. However, in my mind the maindeck needs Pyrokinesis - but running both: Chrome Moxen (of which I would run 3 btw.) AND P'Kinesis in the MD would ocassionally create too much carddisadvantage. In my oppinion Pyrokinesis is worth missing Chrome Moxen.

(2)
I played only 3 postboarded games with Carpet so far and resolved it in one of them. That time I was playing against Miracles and i was already in a very favorable position, so Carpet didn't change anything about that. In both games against Patriot I didn't draw Carpet, but I can say for sure that it would have immediately ended the game if I had drawn it. The games took longer than they should because I couldn't empty my hand (he destroyed my Vial and Lackeys). at any time Carpet of Flowers would have given me 3+ mana each turn, so that would have been an extra Matron, or and extra Ringleader on each turn - which is quite nice. I am absolutely positive that Carpet of Flowers is in the right place.

(3)
I want at least 2 Piledrivers (would be more comfortable with 4) to push damage through True Name Nemesis (as was the case against Patriot on saturday) and Delvers. Also with MWM I can't rush Miracles and fastcombo decks in the same way I do with Piledriver. Miracles will probably stille be a good MU, even without Piledrivers, but combo decks seen to be more out of reach when I cant Matron into Piledriver on turn 2 (off Lackey for example) or naturally cast it when I have it on my hand.

[Sandro95]

(1)
The deck is a little less explosive without Chrome Mox. I don't necessarily regret not being able to cast Warren Instigator on tun 1. I do miss though the opportunity to cast Goblin Chieftain on turn 2 and Chalice of the Void on turn 1. However, in my mind the maindeck needs Pyrokinesis - but running both: Chrome Moxen (of which I would run 3 btw.) AND P'Kinesis in the MD would ocassionally create too much carddisadvantage. In my oppinion Pyrokinesis is worth missing Chrome Moxen.

(2)
I played only 3 postboarded games with Carpet so far and resolved it in one of them. That time I was playing against Miracles and i was already in a very favorable position, so Carpet didn't change anything about that. In both games against Patriot I didn't draw Carpet, but I can say for sure that it would have immediately ended the game if I had drawn it. The games took longer than they should because I couldn't empty my hand (he destroyed my Vial and Lackeys). at any time Carpet of Flowers would have given me 3+ mana each turn, so that would have been an extra Matron, or and extra Ringleader on each turn - which is quite nice. I am absolutely positive that Carpet of Flowers is in the right place.

(3)
I want at least 2 Piledrivers (would be more comfortable with 4) to push damage through True Name Nemesis (as was the case against Patriot on saturday) and Delvers. Also with MWM I can't rush Miracles and fastcombo decks in the same way I do with Piledriver. Miracles will probably stille be a good MU, even without Piledrivers, but combo decks seen to be more out of reach when I cant Matron into Piledriver on turn 2 (off Lackey for example) or naturally cast it when I have it on my hand.

You make very good arguments as usual. :) Here's a follow up question for you! If you move away from Chrome Mox in favor of Pyrokinesis, do you think playing Winstigator is still correct?

[Sandro95]

How do we all feel about skirk prospector?

The list Jim posted is pretty clean and straight forward. It seems more focused on simply overrunning your opponents with goblins, than on trying to outmaneuver them with various toolbox cards and intricate lines of play. I could see Skirk Prospector being less impressive in such a list. On the other hand, Skirk Prospector could very well be vital as a way to really swarm the board in such a list. Of course, that plan works better the more copies of Mogg War Marshal you play.

[owerbart]

i'm guessing goblin rabblemaster does not have a place in legacy goblins, right?

[Sandro95]

i'm guessing goblin rabblemaster does not have a place in legacy goblins, right?

It's a very strong card, but it doesn't just go into any goblins deck. I could see it being strong versus a deck like Miracles, as it is a powerful threat on its own. If I were to play it I would propably do so alongside Chrome Mox. But no, it doesn't have a place in regular legacy goblins.

[potatodavid]

i'm guessing goblin rabblemaster does not have a place in legacy goblins, right?

I run 4 in my Moggcatcher list, but in Vial Goblins it doesn't make the cut.

[GoboLord]

You make very good arguments as usual. :) Here's a follow up question for you! If you move away from Chrome Mox in favor of Pyrokinesis, do you think playing Winstigator is still correct?

Excellent question. Do you want to know if it is correct to play Winstigator - the card - or Do you mean the WInstigator decklist/approach in general?

[Sandro95]

Excellent question. Do you want to know if it is correct to play Winstigator - the card - or Do you mean the WInstigator decklist/approach in general?

I was referring to the card, but in a way it goes hand in hand with the winstigator approach.

[GoboLord]

I was referring to the card, but in a way it goes hand in hand with the winstigator approach.

Well, as I said, to me Chrome Mox allowed me to cast my expensive spells (Chieftain, Matron, Ringleader) one turn earlier. I can't deny that casting WInstigator on turn 1 feels good, but it is not necessarily what I want. I included Tarfires and Chieftain to get my Lackey past DRS and SFM more reliably (which in turn allows me to cheat on mana). Chrome Mox helped with casting Chieftain - so it also helps me with my plan to cheat on mana. Addtionally it allows me to cast Ringleader on turn 3 when connecting with Lackey (=cheating on mana) doesn't work. So, the whole story of this deck is called "Mana Issues - What to do when your spells are too expensive?", which is why I included Warren Instigator as well (and lately Carpet of Flowers). As you can see this was in addition to, not because of, Chrome Mox.

The reason why I asked for the "Winstigator-card" vs "WInstigator-deck" was because I actually could consider cutting Warren Instigator (the card) for Goblin Warchief (again: to cheat on mana). So it might not be correct to play Warren Instigator - the card without Chrome Mox (but it's probably not correct either to run Warchief instead, which would mean that the deck in its current form would have nearly no cmc2 spells but a whole bunch of cmc3 ones) . However, I believe that it IS absolutely correct to run the "Winstigator-deck" - or rather: not to approach the deck in the 'CLASSIC' way - as I still see no reason why an extended manadenial package would be helpful. If I was to go that route I would defintely combine 4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports with some copies of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben AND most importantly Goblin Settler.

//EDIT: I know this is quite short an answer for what I actually wanted to point out. If anything is unclear please feel free to ask. At the moment I only have time to submit replies during my relatively short train rides, which means that I can't always write extended posts.

[jrw1985]

Nice games dude! Never saw someone playing bug delver so poor though;) I love your build i'am on the mono red build now because my meta has shitload of combo iam thinking about switching tot R/B

I ran a sweet Rb list with maindeck Weirding, Earwig, and Frogtosser Bannerette. Frogtosser was a great card and worked very nicely against combo.