In five months' time I might be playing MUD at GP Lille because I think it is well positioned against Miracles, combo and anything non-blue. I have started to ponder different lists: One of them is monobrown and rather similar to what others play, another one includes the colour red for Daretti and Welders. However, I feel that Welder and - similarly - Metalworker are always the most easily hated part of the deck with a close scond being the 10/11-Post manabase. I was asking myself how a MUD deck could do without either. More specifically I want to run the typical lockpieces (Chalice and 3sphere) and the midgame-bombs (Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Forgemaster, Sundering Titan) without being too susceptible to Wasteland and every creature removal in the format. I think it is possible with a red splash. And maybe someone else wants to join in brewing. This is what I started testing with.
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
10 Mountain
4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Wildfire
The list might miss the mana of Cloudpost although I don't think so after initial testing. It certainly wants to run Voltaic Key but Chalice says no to that plan. The manabase is pretty close to what Kai Budde used during Worlds in 1999 and that's where the idea of using Wildfire comes from.
Things I would want to change if I saw how:
a) Reduce the number of lands: I would go to 22 or even as low as 20 if it wasn't for Mox Diamond. Maybe there is a way of substituting that?
b) Include Ugin: He might take the place of Sundering Titan or 1 Wildfire.
c) Include Voltaic Key: I don't see that due to Chalice.
Other than that, the deck runs the best lockpieces in Legacy, is full of bombs, has an engine in Daretti and can generate ridiculous amounts of mana relatively unmolested. Tell me what you think about a Wildfire-version of MUD (if that is still MUD).
Darksteel Citadel and Burning of Xinye are pretty good togetherOriginally Posted by Tourach
Shiit, two MUDs in the Top 16 of SCG Houston tonight, both with Ugin, one with playsets of Painter's Servant and Grindstone.
My friend was the other, the one without the Painters. He's been playing MUD for a while, but with Ugin he decided to concentrate on it.
He had a pretty insane game 3 versus Elves where he had a Platinum Emperor versus about 25 eleves, a Progenitus and a Runric Thar. Apparently the Elf player didn't feel like running Reclamation Sage was good. Go figure. So after a while my friend was able to Steel Hellkite off a Forgemaster.
I know he lost to Travis on Death and Taxes (who top 8ed) where he ultimated Ugin in a game, but drew no threats and lost. I forgot what else he lost to, I'll ask him later in the week, but I think is was a BUG deck of some kind, probably BUG Delver.
Last edited by H; 02-16-2015 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Right names are right...
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Painter Servant and Ugin's -X ability is pretty funny. But it can also whipes your own board. So far i did not feel it necessary to also remove non coloured permanents.
Ugin does what MUD was missing.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Any chance we could get his thoughts on how deck felt, what was good, bad and what changes if any he would make? Feedback like that is invaluable.
I don't know off-hand if he has an account here, but I can ask him if he wouldn't mind joining and posting. He was sleeping almost the whole ride back from Houston (lucky...). I'll try to get a hold of him this week, or at worst, talk to him at FNM about it.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Painter servant seems worse then normal painter servant. But at least you dont need no recruiters :p
Seriously grindstone mud has been tried in the past. I tried it too! The biggest problem is you cannot play chalice on 1 wich was and still is one of the core plays of MUD against everything.
If i would play grindstone in MUD i would add 4 goblin welder and 4 gamblemaybe some divining top too!
Im really frustrated with post-mana right now, i played against a CloudPost deck and every land i dropped helped him to get mana for eldrazi quicker! Still its better then normal lands in MUD.
So, this weird thing happened: Someone pulled off MUD-Post Painter in today's IQ.
14th Place
Also, on its coat tails in 15th Place, Red MUD:
15th Place
Things I've noticed:
Ugin and Karn both make a tag team appearance within both 75's.
The 4 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice Mainboard rule was twisted by both decks.
No Daretti or Goblin Welder in the Red MUD.
This feels... strange. I like both decks though. Especially since I've been playing a lot of modern and can attest to the power of colorless planeswalkers.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
I played at SCG IQ Houston playing MUD. I was the player without Painter/Stone in the deck. My list is as follows:
Main Deck:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Karn Liberated
2 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Nin
The Legacy Challenge event the night before the IQ was the first time (aside from the FNM the night before) I tried Ugin in my build. Previously, the two spots were taken by Daretti and Sundering Titan.
Some interesting decisions I made as far as my build goes:
Daretti -- I haven't had great testing with this card. Honestly, I haven't tried him much, so I probably made an unfair evaluation. I don't want my MB relying on red mana. I actually until the last month ran blue for Academy Ruins, which I never used in several months of playing (it was only one).
Goblin Welder -- As I said earlier, I don't want my MB relying on red. I had two SB in place of Cage at one point. The problem is that it's so vulnerable to everything. I've been blown out by Punishing Fire, Bolt, StP, Terminus, PtE, Decay, etc., so many times with it that I don't think it's well-placed in most matches. At best I can equip Greaves and start doing silly things. If I don't have a Greaves, though, I'm never able to utilize him.
Blood Moon -- This is actually the only reason that red is in the deck. I wanted it primarily for my BUG match. I found that their mana base is very fragile, but mine can be more so because they have DRS. Wasteland becomes my bane while they just play one-mana spells. I wanted to try it for the IQ, so I put it in the deck kinda last-minute. It was great against BUG, and it also locked RUG out at the FNM prior to the IQ. Overall I'm happy with it. It can take out Infect and Lands and some other matches as well.
Pithing Needle -- I previously ran Revoker. The problem is that Revoker can't stop Lands decks from mowing you early, and it can get removed more easily against Stoneforge and Miracles decks. I figured that getting to keep my Needle after a Terminus is extraordinarily relevant. Chalice at 1 stops me from playing the Needle, yes, but I don't mind the dead card. Against Sneak & Show, I don't even need to play it. Plus I don't think basing my entire play strategy around one card in the deck is where I want to be. I have actually used this in the same way that 12-Post does--by naming Wasteland in order to protect my assets.
Trinisphere -- This card is terrible for me. With Wasteland everywhere, I often find that it locks me as much as my opponent. Plus the advent of Delve has make it a bit worse. Murderous Cut and Dig Through Time are still playable, and players still get full value out of Stoneforge Mystic.
Karn Liberated -- This has been in my SB since I built the deck. I should have had it MD previously, I think, but I decided to keep it SB right now. He seals away really grindy matchups. Lands, Miracles, Show & Tell, and Reanimator are usually what he sees play against. Basically any non-hyper-aggressive matches like Burn, Elves, etc. Now, though, Ugin is too good to have Karn MD.
Grafdigger's Cage -- I have this in the deck with the same justification as Pithing Needle. The main reason I run this is Elves. Their GSZ and Natural Order pull way too far ahead of me. It is a Forgemaster target to stop them from killing me outright. Reclamation Sage is actually worse than getting Hoofed. It just feels so bad when there's a Wirewood Symbiote in play. Plus if I need to tutor a creature, it becomes fodder to my Forgemaster.
Ugin -- This card is insane. During the Legacy Challenge, I ultimated Ugin about 6 times. I never even used his second ability. I even got to play it turn 2 multiple times since I put it in at FNM. He's a permanent Lightning Bolt, board wipe, and Eureka. I was tempted to run more.
Staff of Nin -- I put this in my SB for Infect, BUG, and Jund. It gets card advantage after getting my hand shredded, and it deals with Delvers and Infect dudes before they become a problem.
Anyway, I'll go into some detail about some of the matches I played. I'm going to be honest here--several people I played against at some point said the words "I've seen this deck online, but I've never seen it played. I didn't know what it did exactly." I can probably attribute quite a bit of my success to obscurity factor. Anyway, I'm going to include my four rounds at the Legacy Challenge just for the sake of diversity in opponents, and I apologize if I mix up details--most of what I remember of that day was granola bars and the coffee shop not opening until 9.
LC1:
Round 1 of the Legacy Challenge was against Infect. This matchup is highly favored by me as long as they don't open up on the perfect hand.
Game 1: I played Chalice at 1 on turn 1. He played a Polluted Delta. I followed up with Monolith to Lodestone Golem. It resolved. He played another Delta. Then I played another Lodestone Golem. He played a Misty Rainforest, and I closed the game without knowing what he was playing.
Game 2: He opened with Gitaxian Probe and Inkmoth Nexus. I was a bit nervous, but I sided in Pithing Needle and Spellskite in place of an Opal and Wurmcoils. I figured he was on Infect or Show & Tell (or some other combo). I was leaning heavily toward Show & Tell. I did not bring in Blood Moon just in case he was playing Show & Tell. I figured an unknown match is not worth risky sideboarding. I played a Chalice at 1 and passed. He fetched and hit me for 1 Poison. I followed up with Forgemaster. He finished me with double Invigorate.
Game 3: I played Monolith into Key turn 1. He played Hierarch. I played Ugin turn 2 and bolted his Hierarch. He played a Nexus and passed. I bolted with Ugin and played a Wasteland. I ultimated Ugin the next turn and dropped Lodestone, Greaves, Blighsteel, Wasteland. That was game.
Overall, the matchup versus Infect is shaky, I think. At no point did I feel comfortable while simultaneously knowing what he was playing. Lodestone Golem makes the match very secure since they rely heavily upon a small mana base and many "cheat" spells such as Invigorate. Chalice is an MVP since it locks their cantrips, Vines, Berserk, Hierarch, and Glistener. I played against Infect in the IQ the next day and had similar results. The beauty of the match is that I don't care about my life total. I used Tombs happily. After game 2, I sided out Spine of Ish Sah and Platinum Emperion for two Blood Moon. I sided out the Steel Hellkite for my Mox that I sided out after Game 1. Ugin and Wasteland deserve great mention here since Ugin just kills every creature except Inkmoth, and Wasteland kills that. MUD just has a lot of native problem cards for Infect.
LC2:
Round 2 of the Legacy Challenge was against BUG Delver. You'll have to forgive me if my round pairings are out of order. The BUG player is a friend of mine, and he's a tough matchup for me. I don't particularly remember the details of the matchup. I'll go into more about BUG with the game I played against it in the IQ since I remember more details there.
LC3:
Round 3 of the Legacy Challenge was against Miracles. This is a matchup that I feel much more comfortable with now.
Game 1: I played Chalice at 1. I cast Forgemaster on Turn 2. He countered it. Turn 3, I cast Ugin. I ultimated him and won the game by dropping multiple Lodestones off of that.
Game 2: I sided in Karns and Needles over Wurmcoil, Opal, and Hellkite. I needled his Top on turn 1, and I followed up with Opal and Monolith turn 2. Played Ugin again. Basically the same happened this game.
This match is fairly good. They have a ton of cantrips, top, and swords. The good thing is that the Counterbalance loses value since MUD's mana curve is fairly difficult to consistently answer. It can still get ugly since they have so many counters. Cavern of Souls helps of course. Overall, I find that Miracles is one of my best blue matchups. I put Needle in my SB in order to stop JtMS and Top. If they can't get card advantage, you are safe.
LC4:
Round 4 of the Legacy Challenge was against a strange Junk deck. He was running a Living Wish package with Qasali Pridemage.
Game 1: I played a Monolith turn 1, and he played DRS. I dropped Metalworker turn 2. He cast Living Wish for Pridemage. I followed up by dropping Forgemaster and another artifact (I don't remember which). He killed my Forgemaster, and I drew Ugin. That was pretty much game.
Game 2: He did the same turn 1, and I opened up on Greaves. I don't particularly remember the next sequences, but I believe he had no removal for Worker/Staff.
I'm not sure exactly what his list was. He was running SFM package, I believe, but I didn't see much aside from value creatures with a Wish package. I didn't take this as some sign that I was running a great deck.
IQ1:
Round 1 of the IQ was against BUG Delver. I'm going to be honest here. I should not have lost this match. I lost to my own mistakes--I blame terrible sleep the night before and some excitability at the beginning of the event.
Game 1: I am on the draw. He begins with DRS. I play a Citadel and Key. He plays Delver and passes. I don't believe he made a second land drop. I played a Furnace. Here's where I derped. I had Opal in hand. Rather than playing it first, I threw out Monolith into a Daze. I got stuck on 2 mana the rest of the game--drew no more lands as DRS and Delver started just swinging at me.
Game 2: I sideboarded in Blood Moon, Wurmcoil, and Needle in place of 2 Worker, Spine, Staff, and Key. I played Monolith turn 1. He played Delver. Turn 2, I derped hard. I had Mox Diamond and Great Furnace in hand. Rather than playing the Mox, I played the Furnace for some reason. I resolved a Lodestone Golem. He untapped and wasted my Furnace. On the next turn, I drew Blood Moon. I would have locked him out of the game with that draw had I played the Mox.
I have a lot of experience with this match, and that experience tells me that BUG is dangerous. Not only do they have insanely efficient creatures like DRS, Delver, and Goyf, but the deck also runs Abrupt Decay, Liliana, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. All of these are terrible news for me. It's also worth mentioning that Null Rod is a huge problem. Ugin is extremely good in this match, I believe, since their only way to win is with low-cost creatures. It also puts you far ahead since the deck has no way to deal with him as far as I've seen. Other possible problem cards are Grafdigger's Cage and Krosan Grip. Needle is an absolute must in this deck due to DRS, Wasteland, and Liliana. Now the interesting thing I experienced in Game 2 was Murderous Cut. Delve gets around every bit of lock I have. It's not a 1-drop, delves an extra card vs Lodestone, and it ignores Trinisphere (which I cut long ago).
IQ2:
Round 2 of the IQ was against Worldgorger Combo. I don't think there's much value in going into detail about this match. My opponent admitted that the deck was a bit experimental.
Game 1: My turn 1 was Greaves, I think. His was discarding Worldgroger EoT. I played Chalice at 2 to stop Animate Dead, and he was locked out of the game.
Game 2: I played Chalice at 1, and he cast Entomb in response. I was a bit nervous, but he didn't combo. I played Forgemaster off two sol lands and mox. Once it came back to me, I was able to Forgemaster for Cage after that, so he was locked out of the game.
IQ3:
Round 3 of the IQ was against Jund. This was another weird matchup.
Game 1: He played DRS turn 1 and passed. I played Greaves. He followed up with Bob. I played Worker into Wurmcoil. He couldn't race me.
Game 2: I sided in Spellskite, Wurmcoil, and Needle in place of Spine, Staff, a Worker, and Chalice. He opened with DRS again. I played Monolith, Key, Worker. He bolted my Worker and played Bob. Next I played Forgemaster. He plays Bloodbraid into a Courser of Kruphix. This was a weird card to include against me, but I figured he was hoping for a grindy game. The top card of his library was a Strangleroot Geist. I've never seen the card played in Legacy, but I didn't ask. I played Ugin, wiped the board and Blightsteeled next turn.
I'm not sure what this build was, but Jund is normally one of my absolute worst matchups. Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Liliana, Thoughtseize, Pulse, and Hymn are savage. Generally my hope is that they don't come flying out the gate with removal, and I can stick Wurmcoil or Forgemaster for at least a turn. I actually considered boarding in Blood Moon because it would turn off Decay, Liliana, etc. The problem is that any good player will fetch basics early. DRS makes their colors easy to fix as well. The sad part is that Chalice is even pretty bad. Tasigur isn't hit by it, and Abrupt Decay frees them up. This is hands-down my worst match, I think.
IQ4:
Round 4 of the IQ was against Death & Taxes. Cool guy. Good player. Completely killed me.
Game 1: I don't remember much of Game 1, but he locked my mana down and just won.
Game 2: I managed to squeeze a win. He didn't get a Vial.
Game 3: The highlight of that game was that he had me on the ropes until I resolved an Ensnaring Bridge. I ultimated Ugin and whiffed. Drew 2 Metalworkers, Needle, Forgemaster, and three lands. Played them in order to keep Bridge active. Next turn I played Karn and exiled his Revoker on my Forgemaster. He pathed my Forgemaster in response and bounced his Thalia with Karakas EoT. Then on his turn, he cast Cataclysm. I was done.
I think I got Games 1 and 2 mixed up? I forget the exact details, but this match is a difficult one. MD revoker and SB needle pretty much shuts me down. Flickerwisp and Swords answer a lot of my threats. Vial gets through Chalice at instant speed. I don't particularly have a plan against this deck. I side in Needles, Bridge, Karn, and Staff of Nin.
IQ5:
Round 5 of the IQ was against Sneak & Show.
Game 1: I played an early Chalice at 1 and Lodestone Golem. Killed him the turn after he cast Sneak Attack with no mana to activate.
Game 2: I derped and cast Pithing Needle on turn 1. He forced. Okay, I'm an idiot. I managed to get out Forgemaster and Worker. Turn 3, he cast Show & Tell into Sneak Attack. Plays Petal and hits me with Emrakul. I'm left with Forgemaster. I play a Furnace and pass. He hits me with Emrakul again.
Game 3: I came out of the gate extremely fast with Ugin and Lodestone. He played Show & Tell, and I dropped Needle. He dropped Griselbrand. I played Spine and went in for lethal.
Sneak & Show is shaky game 1. If I don't resolve a lock piece and act quickly, they can just kill me with Sneak Attack. The good news is that Show & Tell can benefit me a lot, so they sometimes only have the option to Sneak Attack, as summoning sickness is very relevant. Game 2 I have Needle, Karn, and Bridge. I don't think there's much to say here. The opponent's strategy makes mine better in quite a few cases. I just go as quickly as possible.
IQ6:
Round 6 of the IQ was against BUG again, if I remember correctly. This match was much more successful.
Game 1: He hymned me and didn't hit anything major. I rushed out a Metalworker into Wurmcoil with a Cavern.
Game 2: I cast Blood Moon on turn 1 off the top after a Thoughtseize. That was game.
IQ7:
Round 7 of the IQ was against Elves.
Game 1: He played Deathrite. I played Monolith, Key, Monolith, Forgemaster.
Game 2: He thoughtseized my Monolith, and I didn't draw enough mana after that. Killed me quickly with a few elves swinging.
Game 3: This was the stranges game I've ever played versus Elves. He thoughtseized me turn 1 and 2, taking two Lodestone Golems. I played a Greaves. He played some elves, and I played Forgemaster and equipped it. He started to draw lots of cards with Symbiote and Visionary but didn't find a NO or GSZ. I played Bridge and sunk into my seat for the long game. Dropped as many artifacts as I could for Forgemaster fodder (I had Master, 2 Greaves, and Bridge in play). He hardcasts a Progenitus with all of his mana after a few turns of durdling. I was drawing tons of mana. I activated Forgemaster to get my Hellkite to start ending the game before he could get to a Reclamation Sage. Then I remembered the Bridge in play, so I grabbed Emperion. The game went another 25-ish minutes like this. I was facing down over 20 elves and Progenitus with nothing to do but draw cards. I Forgemaster again later for Staff of Domination. He abrupt decays it after the first activation. Sad day. After a few turns, he stopped drawing with Visionary. He casts GSZ, and I was ready to pick my cards up. But he casts it for 6 and grabs Ruric Thar. The slow realization came to me that this guy didn't have Reclamation Sage in his 75... I sacrificed the Bridge and got my Hellkite. Killed his team with Ugin + Hellkite the next turn and then killed his Progenitus the next.
Normally, Elves is a horrible matchup because it just wins randomly on turn 3 or so. It also gets the fun interaction of Reclamation Sage + Symbiote. I debated adding Torpor Orb for this match, and I'm still very tempted. I settled for Cage for now. Abrupt Decay is a difficult card to deal with either way. Plus Therapy and Thoughtseize. Chalice is an absolute must, but that doesn't always save you due to GSZ and NO just killing you randomly.
IQ8:
Round 8 of the IQ was against Infect, piloted by a guy I know locally.
Game 1: He couldn't work through Chalice at 1 and at 3. I made sure to stop Invigorate from giving me trouble.
Game 2: Basically the same thing happened. Lodestone locked and was really explosive with Monolith.
I like my match against Infect. As I said previously, Tomb becomes the best card ever. He also got mana screwed, and I happened to draw very well for the matchup. Again, though, I have a lot of coincidental great cards against the deck.
Hope this gives you some insight? I'm willing to go into more detail on specific things if necessary.
Alright boys and girls. I need some critique on my deck build. I'm literally undefeated with this Mud deck build I've tinkered up. The only bad match up this deck has is itself, meaning if i mull to 0, I will lose. So here's the list. I really think it is strong. Someone please try it out, and tell me your thoughts.
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Lightning Greaves
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Culling Scales
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 Razormane Masticore
2015 SCG Washington D.C. IQ Legacy Champion - 1st place w/ Sneak and Show
Follow me on http://www.twitch.tv/dcosiem/ for Legacy on Cockatrice.
If you want to play me on Cockatrice, add me as dcosiem.
Dude.. 4 vesuva is just bad. the change of getting 2 in your opening hand screwing your hand is to big. I think the right number is 2 to minimise the risk. Copying anything else then post lands is mostly a waste with the tapped into play thing.
Also you have too many 1 offs for my liking, if you dont get to forgemaster for them its just totally random. I always play 3-4 wurmcoil because its a card i always love (unless stp).
Also check out scroll rack! its a nice card in your opening hand because it safes a mull if you can tuck away the bad and get the good and late game it helps finding a win con in those loooong grindy matches.
Interested in the 2 mox opal, 1 mox diamond.
I like mox diamond because it can help tuck away a excess vesuva or city of traitors plus gives some acceleration early on. How did the mox opals feel? Any reason for the 2 and 1?
I like to maximize Cloudposts abilities I guess. I rarely get Vesuvas in openers that don't do anything. But I do agree with you there. I don't like the many 1 offs, but they do limit my probability to lose from a lot of angles. Consistency matters, but lately I've been losing to Tier decks every time I play 3 or more Wurmcoil Engines in my deck. True Name Nemesis can deal with him sadly enough.
The thing about playing scroll rack in this deck is how do you deal with deck manipulation? How do you remove bad cards?
2015 SCG Washington D.C. IQ Legacy Champion - 1st place w/ Sneak and Show
Follow me on http://www.twitch.tv/dcosiem/ for Legacy on Cockatrice.
If you want to play me on Cockatrice, add me as dcosiem.
I decided on 2 Opal because I used to have the opposite configuration, and I didn't like the reliance upon lands in my hand. I found it clunky when I have sol land, single mana land, diamond. Opal gives me some extra reach since I have artifact lands and cheap enabler/lock artifacts to play early. It can make my turn 2 citadel still net me two mana.
As far as why 3 moxen, I used to run 2 with 23 lands. I found that my opening hands were less reliable with that many one-mana lands.
If I were playing the post build, I would not run opal due to the lack of artifact lands. As it stands I find Forgemaster is better in the nonpost build since your artifact lands fuel it. Same justification for running the moxen.
"I might almost pity my enemies—if it wasn't so amusing to watch them die."
Ok all true. But furnace just for the sideboard moons seems a little meh. Forgemaster needs to eat to work, thats is one of the reasons i play mishra's factory. It can be sacced to forgemaster when needed, and a 3/3 blocker is something a lot of decks dont like early game.
I think i ll try a mox diamond sometimes, to get rid of either excess city of traitors or vesuvas i dont want.
I have tried factory in the past with good results. I run the artifact lands over it because it also feeds worker. I'm actually considering cutting my wasteland count to 2 and my cavern count to 3 for 3 factories.
"I might almost pity my enemies—if it wasn't so amusing to watch them die."
Hello again fellow MUDslingers, I recently got 4th out of 67 at the MTGDeals winter open in southern California. Here's the list I was playing:
4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination
Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Trading Post
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt
Matches were (in order)
Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Round 2: Miracles (2-1)
Round 3: Miracles (2-1)
Round 4: Imperial Painter (0-2)
Round 5: Elves (2-1)
Round 6: Junk Loam (1-2)
Round 7: Miracles (2-0)
Top8: Grixis young pyromancer (piloted by Vidianto Wijaya) (2-1)
Top4: Junk Loam (same guy I played in the swiss rounds) (1-2)
I walked away with an FNM promo swords to plowshares for my troubles.
Some notes: 1 Ugin in the main feels correct. He can win games when you are behind, and he can lock everything down when you're ahead. I don't know if I'd want 2 in the main, but he's definitely cemented a slot in the 75. My previous MUD lists ran All is Dust, and Ugin basically just replaced that card because he does the same thing, except he sticks around and does more too.
I didn't like trading post in the sideboard, it was my first time trying it out and I never activated it, and only sideboarded it in a couple times.
I am, and always will be a huge fan of Platinum Angel in the mainboard. The angel can fly over true-name nemesis and can kill delvers as well as saving your butt. Some decks just auto-scoop to a platinum angel equipped with lightning greaves.
4 vesuvas didnt bother you?
2 staff of domination ---- do you feel its better / more useful with a post mana base?
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I had a dream last night it involved cutting 4 chalice for 4 defense grid!!!!!!!
A instant isnt really interesting if its a sorcerey- plus maybe 3-4 greaves and sorceries dont matter at all because you still can activate your metalworker or kuldotha safely. Plus your counter care free with essentialy 8 trinisphere like effects on the defense. Plus you can go play 1 mana cards again (interested in pithing needle, the untap artifact, expedition map and senseis top) Im gonna try it!
Hey guys,
I have awfully been quiet from this thread. I am planning on updating the primer but I have little material since I haven't really played Legacy in almost a year now.
I was going to do specific matchups but life caught up with me. I am looking for help with matchup analysis between archetypes with 12 post, old school and welder/daretti/moon versions. Also, is the old school (use sol lands+utility lands+mana artifacts) dead in favor of the 12post builds? Also, why isn't Daretti making a splash on the thread. I remember seeing a Daretti Stax deck but it wasn't here on the Source.
I think with the banning of Treasure Cruise, the format will resort back to the midrange meta with splashes of elves and storm-based combo.
Also, I noticed that Hollywood has been posting here. I was a big fan of what he did with Dredge/Manaless Dredge and I am looking forward on his contributions here. While we're on that topic, should there be a separate thread for Welder Builds and Mono-Brown? I find that Welder builds are combo/synergy oriented where as Mono-Brown tends to be brute force with resistor protection.
Anything you guys want to add? Also thanks Alex Holland and Bobmans for keeping the thread alive.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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