My plan: Vial, Cavern, Rishadan Port and revoker/needle is there key to beating you. (its hard to play Jace through Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Thalia and then get answered by Needle and Revoker but i still think its worth it) after board white became your most important colour.Originally Posted by Ltj999
+ Supreme Verdict
+ Disenchant
+ Engineered Explosives
+ Entreat the Angels
+ Vendilion Clique
- 4 Counterbalance
- 1 Force of Will/Counterspell
Edit: maybe another Clique is worth it (because of the pressure on our manabase and snatching an equipment (Swords of Fire and Ice is a real pain) and ofc the viper block. if you add Cliques i would cut Jaces
Thoughts about the single relic in the side on eins list? I really dont like it.
that is a good beginning for a discussion. just a plain statement no explanation.
I love the relic
I was wondering how the 4 ponder list plays against the traditional rug delver? I could imagine getting stifled/wasted out could be a problem.
It's slow, not very effective and fucks over our own deck a fair amount. Although its possible its my poor timing, not being used to it.
Against what do you side it in?
Relic is great if you know how to use it. You have 2 know when to cycle it. It's a high impact card especially if you find it turn 1-3. Many times my opponents either decayed it or krosan griped (jund/bug/rug) it, a good exchange i think. you can delay their drs and gooses and keep goyfs in check, which is the reason its better than tormod's crypt.
I'd bring it in against lands, ant/tes, reanimator, dredge, rug, jund and maybe bug. keep in mind that often times you have to keep one mana open.
relic lets you keep dtt and snappy post board without any problems (much better than 2 RIP SB and 2 DTT and 3 snappy main which ive seen).
You have people spending their outs to counterbalance on relic? What the actual hell.
in games 2 and 3, it is reasonable for abrupt decay decks to assume that you have sideboarded out your counterbalances.
I for my part would not play 3 DDTs. For me it seems that 2is the optimal number while if 1 play only 1 i sometimes dont find it in time which is a indicator that 1 is not enough. I also see why you think wou lose when having 2 of the high cost cards in hand but for me this is a wrong assumption. The reason is that with the Brainstorm Snap list you actually play 8 Brainstorms and 3 jacestorms this gives you 11 Sources to shuffle the cards away if you donīt need them. Thisivanpei
How do you deal with the Clunk? 3 DTT 4 Terminus and 2 Entreat is 9 cards which are dead until turn 5 and up. I've lost a few games when I have more than 1 in hand. They just get stuck there and without Brainstorm, you are screwed. I want to build a deck which doesn't lose to itself. It's best to be as consistent as possible even if we need to sacrifice some power.
should solve the problem you have in most of the time.
Also If you play Cliques you can ehnance the fix further with their cycle ability.
And now look what we as Miracle players have. 4 Brainstorm,4 ponder (in the Ein build), 3-4 Swords, 2 Blasts, 1-2 Spellpiece/Spellsnare. So while your example has 21 low cost cards we also have 10 to 18 not counted the 10 fetchlands all Miracles decks play.I'm a pro-dig guy, just not in this deck. 1 is fine, more is clunky. I've played 3 Digs in my Pyroblade deck and it was perfect there. That deck had 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder and 3 Gitaxian Probe though along with 4 STP and 3 Bolts, so it fills the yard super quickly.
So there is not such a big difference in the number of cards you can play fast to fill the yard. That leads to the conclusion that in a normal game you should not have problems to support DDT in Miracles.
the counter balance lock isnīt something I realy on against DNT so this is nothing I see as a problem. Yes punishing fire is great against these sort of decks but my problems is that the current meta is heavly supporting Combo decks ofDecks like DNT are matchups where Punishing Fire shines. It gives you an infinite stream of removal to deal with the weenies even if an Aether Vial or Cavern is down, which shuts off your Counterbalance lock. Without Punishing Fire, a T1 vial is usually game over. Their dudes dodge counters and have pseudo haste when dropped EOT to dodge Terminus and to take down Planeswalkers.
all sort and the punishing fire Variant is just to weak against these decks.
A question how they can dogde terminus when dropped eot ? You have the terminus floating on their liabary they drop their creature eot and proceed into their turn. They declare attackers and you draw a card and trigger Terminus in their turn to remove their creatures so no way they can dogde this card.
This is assuming Terminus is set up by Brainstorm during your draw step rather than with Top. It's very common to have top Revokered in this match up.
Anyway to each their own. Dig is definitely better vs combo. I'm confident my sideboard can give me sufficient help vs combo so im dedicating as much mainboard towards winning the fair matchups instead.
I just came back from a testing session against Bug Shardless and I'm very happy with Punishing Fire, it single handedly won me 2 games I would.have outright lost without it. Took down Jace and countless weenies and I would have been run over by the Shardless, Baleful Strix value train without it. I stole a 3rd game with an early Entreat for 2. Punishing fire was by far the Mvp in this matchup.
Tested against lands as well, Punishing fire was surprisingly useful as a 2 cc card to lock out life from the loam with Counterbalance. Against combo, the casting cost of Punishing Fire is surprisingly useful. It can take down Exhumes, Infernal Tutor etc etc. However Dig is for sure better in this matchup.
Usually when you play Punishing fire you can drop some number of STP, so you generally don't actually make your deck that much weaker to combo decks since your overall amount of removal is still close to the same. Perhaps you'll have a little bit more removal, but if you're running Punishing Fire it's for a predicted more aggro meta, so having more removal is probably a good idea for that meta anyway. In general I've found that combo decks are less common than decks where I want heavy removal, so I tend to build my main and SB to account for this.
why should it be a problem ? Ponder is exact for those mu's/Situations in the deck. To Stabilize your manabase, and finding what you're searching for. While beeing very flexible as it's easy to cast vs the mana denial plan.
The Ponder build is much much better vs Rug compared to the none Ponder ones. Being able to dig yourself out of a landscrew hole is key in this matchup. Cliques and Vensers are too slow vs RUG for sure.
Build your own list that you like and play it. Copy paste just makes you another dummy that plays net decked lists. Let the Standard players do that and stay original through the legacy scene.
I run 2 Relic of Progenitus in my board due to several factors:
1) I play 2 Snapcaster Mage and 1 DTT and want to keep those three cards in vs decks that crumble to graveyard hate such as RiP. Therefore I feel that Relic does its job just fine.
2) Relic can be boarded against decks that I want hate against from several angles: Storm, Shardless, Loam-decks, Snapcaster/DTT decks
3) Relic is better than most of the graveyard hate out there because it is seldom a dead card. There are of course scenarios where it suck like when my GY is filled and I have Snappy in hand and I really want to clear my opponents grave, but all graveyard hate has its limits.
4) Deathrite Shaman is still a card in legacy and Relic works just fine shutting them down.
5) Tormods Crypt, Surgical Extraction, RiP are all worse options with larger draw backs than Relic if you want to attack a graveyard considering my build (snappy, dtt, red splash, card advantage)
Relic with its controlling approach and the potential to cycle is just the best option for this deck. It rarely hurts yourself, and if it does, you either neuter your opponent's action or you are desperate to dig for something more relevant than your grave. The capacity to enable Miracles during your opponent's turn is also very relevant. It also helps against Surgical Extraction, which people commonly board against us.
On a different note, is anyone experienced playing against Esper Blade? I take it that the matchup is not the best, as they are way better at resolving Jace and have a couple of ways to deal with our Jace. The question is how to sideboard though (Ponder). On the one hand, counterspells in general seem bad against their discard, but on the other hand I feel that they are needed to stop them from pulling too far ahead. Clique is a similar weird card in that matchup, as its effect is really good, but it so dull against 2 spirit tokens. My plan so far was to board into a version that doesn't run too many situational cards and has strong topdecks, but even my "strong" topdecks in the form of Clique or Entreat are still rather weak. Boarding into all counterspells.dec felt a bit less effective so far, but in general my sample size is still quite low.
Humphrey is always correct.
Great Post by useL. Agree with everything you said especially the copy paste part.
The only problem with relic is Null Rod. But Null rod is a huge problem anyways.
Against Esper Blade countertop with 2 and 3 floating and REBs are pretty great. Board Fow's out. You need clique in the MU. They help to resolve Countertop and also get an recurring explosives out of the hand.
Stoneblade usually boards removal out. Sfm package from the board helps. Threat density and diversity matters in this match up.
Against esper we are quiet favored. Board out Forces and swords. Bring in EE, other sweepers, blasts, disenchants, cliques. It is a grindfest and counterbalance is amazing against them and we have more ways to gain card advantage than them.
I used to play 2 relic in miracles, but containment priest is just better. That card is nuts, I do not understand why people are not playing it. Relic is nice to have against RUG or BUG, but its not an amazing card, just better than some of the MD stufft.
This most obnoxious thing from Esper blade is that they can do discard spell first then Jace followup in 1 turn. If their Jace resolves, it would take Miracles players a Lot of effort to get it off the table. Even if you do, much of the 50 minutes have been wasted. That being said, really you want to focus on disrupting the blue parts of Esper blade deck. Fight off their Jace as the highest priority, and then try to discourage them from playing TNN, you can do so by floating a Blast effect. Since Clique and Entreat threaten their resolved Jace, I don't see how they are weak. That's not to mention Clique can disrupt SFM activation, all these CMC 3 provide the flipping against their TNN and Lingering Souls via CB.
Long story short, make good trades, blast everything blue in Esper blade (Esper runs Snapcasters), you have CB-T they don't, don't be too concerned about their discard.
If you read my post your Containment Priest does nothing in many of the matchups I bring Relic in from the board. Containment Priest is actually quite horrible against for instance storm where Relic of Progenitus is quite efficient.
They run 3-4 DTT, so unless we get Countertop online they overwhelm us at some point... (and they got Souls and SFM - how do we have more CA?)
Also, what to board out next after Swords and FoW? I could board out 2 more, 3 if I really wanted to bring in EE, which honestly I don't see why I should. Their treats have varying CC and it adds more clunkyness. Against singleton threats it's akward and against multiple threats a lot of things have to go right.
Humphrey is always correct.
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