Tim your build looks fucking amazing! Finally a build with a game against combo, while playing to the strength of Post. I like how you didnt get overboard with the GSZ toolbox and kept focused on the ramp plan. I already started to test this and just changed the Kozilek to an Ulamog as already suggested (lost to Ensnaring Bridge in g1 already^^). Some small questions:
- Have you considered Loam instead of Crucible or better, why do you play it over Loam. Does Loam requires an dedicated engine to be good (like Tranquil Thicket for example)? It also requires colored mana.
- Instead of going for Moments Peace we could run the Punishing Fire combo instead (cutting any specific lands is a problem though).
- Lodestone Golem could be considered as another combo hate tool. In reality it look unnecessary due to GSZ getting stuff like Teeg.
BBB
@TimHarding: Interesting list, picked up since I have all the cards (minus Ugin, at least for now).
I kinda looks like a hybrid between Sylvan Plug and 12 Post.
About Moment's Peace: Have you considered a black splash and Toxic Deluge?
I was wondering when someone would get crack combining the 12-Post and MUD-Post strategy. This looks like that combination, and I'm going to try it.Originally Posted by TimHarding
Ugin is self-justifying (sans combo and affinity because he's a field dominating card). MUD has picked him up and their only protection for resolving him is getting lucky with Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem... okay Trinisphere is decent, but the point is, try him. I'm surprised how often I've gotten Ugin through in MUD-Post, 12-Post, or Modern Tron (unrelated to this format, but by God, Ugin has breathed new life into that deck for me [PS: reason I've been less frequent on this board lately is Ugin in Modern]).
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
Went 4-2 at a moderate-sized local tournament on Sunday, missing Top 8 on tiebreakers. I was testing Ugin out for the first time, although I can't draw any conclusions about him yet; I only saw him twice in six rounds -- once when it didn't matter because I had already won, and once when he was Thoughtseized out of my opening hand. I also cut the 1x Titan from my sideboard for an Oblivion Stone, which I was quite happy with. (And no, Titan's just not a great fit for my build, which is really just splashing green. I've tried.) This is my current list:
Main Deck (61):
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
8 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
Sideboard (14)
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
Round 1: Infect
Losing the roll was pretty good here, because I was able to confidently drop T1 Needle naming Inkmoth Nexus after seeing Tropical Island into Noble Hierarch. Multiple Maze of Iths + Candelabra kept me well protected both games while my opponent overextended into All Is Dust.
1-0
Round 2: UG Post
I'd never actually played the pseudo-mirror matchup before, but it was quite fun. I took game 1 because I got down Cloudposts faster and had two Eldrazi in hand. My opponent took game 2, slowing me down with Needle on Candelabra and locking me out with Ulamog. I massively dropped the ball in game 3. My opponent had two Pithing Needles, one naming Candelabra, the other naming Eye of Ugin (he had Ulamog in hand). I blatantly telegraphed the Krosan Grip in hand by dropping a second Candelabra and passing, which prompted my opponent to Repeal the Needle naming Eye and replay it naming Candelabra. This allowed him to lock me out with Ulamog + Karakas.
1-1
Round 3: Infect
My opponent won the roll and led with Wooded Foothills into Tropical Island into Ponder. I put him on RUG Delver and happily threw away a T1 Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. Mazes kept me alive for a while, until I had to Crop them into Glacial Chasm to not die to Vines of Vastwood. I had to let the Chasm go at four counters and 8 life, but I did not topdeck an answer. Game 2 was over quickly, with Force of Will countering the Crop Rotation I needed to survive.
1-2
Round 4: BUG Delver
Tabernacle + 2x Maze of Ith kept me untouched through a few turns of Delver + Goyf, until my opponent opted not to pay the upkeep so that he could cast Liliana, followed by True-Name Nemesis. He got me down to 3 while I made a few more land drops, then wiped his board with All Is Dust. I then tutored up Ulamog and blew up his only U/B source. Game 2 had T1 Pithing Needle on Wasteland, followed shortly by T4 Kozilek, which drew a Candelabra that immediately untapped into Ulamog.
2-2
Round 5: Reanimator
Game 1, we both mulled to 5. Fortunately, my 5 was Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Expedition Map, Candelabra. My opponent cast T3 Show & Tell, putting in Elesh Norn. I put in Vesuva rather than the Kozilek I had just drawn. I untapped, cast Kozilek, and drew Ugin for the first time all day. My opponent was in full-on tilt and didn't care, so he sent Elesh Norn crashing into Kozilek. I cast Ugin the following turn, but it was unsatisfying since my opponent was already at 5 life and had no lands. Game 2, I held up Crop Rotation and Surgical Extraction, so I wasn't worried much.
3-2
Round 6: Abzan NicFit
Game 1, I had a 6-land hand with a green source and Exploration -- and the other lands were Karakas, Eye, Cloudpost, 2x Vesuva. I drew a Candelabra, bounced his T3 Tasigur with Karakas, then had Emrakul the following turn. Game 2, my opponent exiled my Expedition Maps with Surgical Extraction, then beat me down with Sigarda (turning off the All Is Dust in hand) while I drew nothing but useless lands; I died with access to 80+ mana but nothing to do with it. Game 3, I finally saw Ugin again in my opener, but my opponent immediately took it with Thoughtseize. Maze of Ith + Candelabra kept a bunch of creatures at bay, then I cast Kozilek. He Zenithed for Sigarda, turning off annihilator, but ended up losing his board anyway while trying to chump block Kozilek.
4-2
Unfortunately, there were four x-2s but only one who could make Top 8, and that one wasn't me.
---------------------------------
Side note: I had a really crazy thought the other day: Ritual of Subdual. It's like the green Blood Moon, except that it doesn't shut down any of our utility lands and even hoses basic lands. The cumulative upkeep shouldn't be a problem, and it completely locks most decks out of the game while we make land drops. Thoughts?
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Dreding into an Eldrazi kinda defeats the purpose of Loam...
Thanks! Crucible isn't the best but it does the job while avoiding dredging Eldrazi :/ But Im starting to think that grabbing 3 lands and risking occasional Eldrazi shuffle in this deck is okay - since I don't think the whole lands engine can be supported entirely.
Punishing fire is definitely worth testing! I was afraid to go two-color before I was sure I could find enough green.
Deluge is one of my favorites and I've been aching to add it to UG regular post. Same reason as PFire, with the second color, so I definitely plan on trying it out.
.........
Last night I got 4th in a 6-Round Swiss SCG Open Trial, with more or less the same Hickory Woodlot list I posted below. Played ANT, Painter, Legacy Birds (!), Oops!, Elves, And Delverr. The Delver deck blew me out with an unexpected back to basics (welcome to Meta where Rock Lee and I play...) which removed me from contention.
Overall it was smooth with a very reliable curve! Ugin was super good. As was Titania. Decks that think they have a plan against sphere generally don't actually have one. I had the opportunity to apocalypse against painter but it just wasnt the right play at the time. Many games were won due to sylvan library, which may prompt a third. Often the transition from Titan to Eldrazi isn't as smooth as in UG, with losing a Woodlot, but the opponent has been so spent dealing with artifacts and then removing Titan that the follow up threat is fine enough. I think I'd prefer to trip up a little after Titan instead of before Titan, anyway.
&@BoozeCube: Holy Cow!!! I've never seen that! I just bought some to try.
Utilizing the graveyard without being too dependent on it is the best general approach in my opinion. The added benefit of dredging Loam is that it clears the top of the library for Sylvan Library (lol). Speaking of SL, I made the same observation and a third one sounds very reasonable, because the deck has quite a bunch of cards which are bad topdecks (e.g. Mox Diamond / 2nd Trini).
Besides changing the manabase both Crucible of Worlds and Moments Peace are the weakest cards in the deck and could be changed in quanitity or scratched altogether imo. Titania is tutorable and can recur a key land and Peace looks like a 2of at best. Either tutor, draw and / or selection are required to increase consistency / versatility, or straight up more bombs. While the first approach pushes the deck more towards traditional UG Post, the second one pushes it more towards MUD. Gernerally I prefer the first approach, but it also depends on the available cards. Besides another Sylvan Library, Sylvan Scrying could be worthwhile. The drawback of costing green over Expedition Map is mitigated in this build and it costs one less in total.
Concerning the sideboard, the dumb Obstinate Baloth (not Ravenous) could be considered again to help against aggro and untargeted discard. Also does red offer any huge cards in the board (in the case Punishing Fire gets added)? I just checked R/G Combo Lands and they often dont have a single red card in the board besides maybe Ancient Grudge, which would improve the MUD matchup at least.
Last edited by deadlock; 02-17-2015 at 10:04 AM.
BBB
I'm curious to see if anyone has tested Constant Mists with Titania and Crucible yet.
I agree & disagree.
MP should be "constant mists" which was in my testing last night rather stellar against tempo.
CM + Crucible + Titania is pretty ridiculous (If you add Oracle in the mix, this is orgasmic):
- recycling glimmer to gain massive life each turn
- literally shitting tokens (even better when the opponent is struggling against Trinisphere)
- could be a soft/hard lock until your opponent find a way to get rid of crucible/CM (be it discard or counterspell)
I have revisited the mana base to include:
- 2 wasteland (at least). Don't spoil in the soup when you can close a match by T3 with recursive wasteland...
- Cut some utility lands (I find chasm is no longer needed) and cavern of souls. Without any mean to fetch them (aside Prime and they should come BEFORE Prime...), they are pretty weak. We would need to play the full pack to get some good value out of CoS.
3 SL was a natural step forward and we might end up with playing the full 4 as in Sylvan Plug because it is another MUST answer threat for any opponent. Even more when you face a deck shitting artifacts to get some explosive turns.
I think 2 Titan is a good number. I want to see 1 to 2 (if the first was dealt with before I could get aheah) per game and with 4 GSZ, we easily have access to it.
The GSZ tool box should be wider:
- I lost some games because I couldn't ramp fast enough and was stuck at 4 mana. My original list contains a Courser but I was not very impressed by him. This means having strong utility/tanking creature @CMC 1, 2 & 3 could be huge. The choice is hard.
- I don't think we should have more killcon: Primetime, Titania, Emrakul & Ugin are already plenty.
Happy testing !
PS: I also tested Ugin instead of Kozilek but he didn't show up at all in more than 10 matches...
I would love splashing for another color since we have access to any color combination with Mox diamond but it should be a very small splash.
Kiora could find a home in this deck the only problem I see is the same as the one I have with Ugin = we have no option to tutor for them...
I did last night as this was the first suggestion I made to Tim :D
Very nice. I could come back in some games where I thought ALL was lost, until the CM shows up !
@Ralf & Everyone: Those are great ideas.
Constant Mists is definitely getting some testing! I especially like how it can be extremely synergistic, or 'just' a fog. Moments peace was a port over from UG, and there can definitely be improvements. Ive also considered dawnstrider.
@ Cavern and Chasm: I've been winning with lines that lean heavily on Titan, and the cavern has been important. Also, unless Constant Mists does a great job of keeping my life total high, I think chasm is needed to survive the turn between casting Titan, and casting Eldrazis - especially against elves and burn. It's been okay so far. Worst case it's Mox food.
@ GSZ target: This came up a few times, when I had already gotten Dryad Arbor. Courser isn't too impressive but I picked up a Sylvan Caryatid to slot in there. Hex proof and even maybe some defense could be great. Maybe? I don't think I want 2 Arbor.
This build or UG, Ugin deserves a slot - it's incredible.
I guess you have far more practice than me with the deck.
But from experience, chasm is bad against elves. I have died too many times to my liking to DRS machine guns, unfortunately.
As for burn, I've come to play my first chalice @ 2 as the only real blowout is PoP. Then, the MU is all about a race. Will I be able to land Titan before they kill me ?It is even better G2 & G3 because you also catch Smash under chalice @ 2.
TBH, I think the mono green version has, on paper, better chance to deal with Burn than other version. You can even play Obstinate baloth (as suggested) as a 1 one-of to hedge against discard with the added bonus of collateral damage to burn.
I've thought about that card many a time as I always chuckle when I come across it. I've never really thought up a build to utilize it though. I'd like to run some way to protect it ideally, but on the flip side I would jam Karns and Ugins all day and dare my opponent to counter them.
Honestly, if any list could utilize it, perhaps it would be yours? Or a list similar to it.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I have liked the interaction between Sylvan Library and Oracle of Mul Daya so much that I have upped the count to 3 Libraries and 2 Oracles. Very good for ramping and you can filter the bottom two with Titan, Map and I run 4 fetchland and a Loam from the board if need be.
Tim, are you approaching the point where a more aggressive list with Amulet of Vigor might be a useful card? I mean, you have a lot of ETBT lands. Perhaps it's win-more, I don't know.
Adding more Candelabras would be far more effective than Amulet of Vigor (although several orders of magnitude more expensive). Amulet gives you a boost only when you play the land. Candelabra requires mana to untap a new land, but is useful with all of your lands, regardless of when you play them.
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I really liked the look of your BG Cloudpost Deck. I played Cloudpost before it's banning in Modern, but have not in Legacy since I don't own any Tropical Islands or Show and Tells. I've made several casual Legacy Cloudpost decks such as mono White with Martial Coup, Decree of Justice and White Sun's Zenith that wasn't bad, but nothing I would play competitively. But I think your list could be pretty competitive so I thought I would give it a spin. I come from a competitive Loam Pox background so I do own some Bayous and I've been playing a bit of mono-green Devotion in Modern too, so I felt your build would feel pretty natural to me, and after some test runs and tweaking for my personal play style, I have to say I think it is pretty good and has some real potential.
Here is the version I've been testing. I think it is almost ready to unleash on some tourney's
BG Cloudpost
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Primeval Titan
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Emerakul, the Eons Torn
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Tiaga
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Trinisphere
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Ugin seems fantastic. I would probably replace one of the Emrakul's with him. I would still keep Wurmcoil Engine because it is great to tutor with Eye of Ugin in a pinch for during the midgame, and this deck does seem to have the ability to finish with Kessig Wolf Run on even a Wurmcoil Token supplemented by some Deathrite pings if the Titans don't get there first. And Prime Time will certainly make an appearance if they let you hang around too long.
Oracle is Excellent with Sylvan Library and even the Expedition Maps have some filtering uses here.
Combo would seem to be the problem especially as compared to UG, so just have to hope that Thoughtseize, Choke, Revoker, Grip and Crop Rotation into Mikokoro or Glacial Chasm until I can assemble a beat down will be enough.
I like the idea of the deck, utilizing chalice and trini, but it seems to me in an online meta you're going to get wastelanded out of existence which remains a primary post problem. Either way, I disagree with someones earlier assessment of moments peace which seems to me an excellent card for buying turns, even though I don't use it. GSZ I also agree with, as sticking a titan is often just as good or better than landing an eldrazi off snt so long as you have the mana, but I go back and forth on these.
I'd like to see a mash-up of lands and post, especially one using manabond. This seems like it would get over a couple of primary problems right away by diluting the wasteland effect and enabling ramp. It seems one challenge with that might be a need for top deck manipulation, getting a sylvan library or top out first.
Having access to so many 2 tappers (which aren't dependent on other lands like Cloudpost),Mox Diamond, and GSZ llanowar really blunts the effect of wasteland. It's difficult for them to out tempo your land drops when you accelerate 2 per turn, and wasteland anti-tempoing them. Now, of course you're going to lose to the flipped delver, 3 waste hand - but barely anything survives that. The actual issue is when Lands gets wasteland and exploration. If they can keep up with the land drops, thats a big problem - especially without bog to bail you out..
That's what I was going to ask, how to you get around lands. Is your combo matchup that much better where it's ok that the agro is a bit weaker?
Also, ugin just wiped all permanents when my opponent was playing painter stone online, ridiculously satisfying.
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