[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[edahl]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

Maybe swap it with Liliana and swap a Trop for Bayou? I have kinda the same experience with TNN, and BB or GG is often good. 1 non-blue land doesn't seem too bad even in a deck with Daze.

[Emo]

I agree with you that Lilianna definitely is feasible if the mana base is tweaked a bit

Here is my short list of 1 of cards (many haven't been tested but just came to mind)

Lilianna (BB problem)
Eternal witness (GG problem)
Dimir charm
monastery siege
Tasigur (cmc makes him iffy)
hypnotic spectre

[FoolofaTook]

I agree with you that Lilianna definitely is feasible if the mana base is tweaked a bit

Here is my short list of 1 of cards (many haven't been tested but just came to mind)

Lilianna (BB problem)
Eternal witness (GG problem)
Dimir charm
monastery siege
Tasigur (cmc makes him iffy)
hypnotic spectre

Do a Sylvan Library as a 1-of before you consider Monastery Siege.

[edahl]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

A main deck Clique seems pretty nice. I'm considering cutting one bob for Liliana, have the second Liliana in the board with 3 Thoughtseizes, and add a Bayou md (upping the land count to 19 with 3 us, 3 trop, 1 bayou).

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Why did this deck get moved out of "Decks to Beat" thread?

[FoolofaTook]

Why did this deck get moved out of "Decks to Beat" thread?

There's a formula that looks at results over a specific time period and lists are promoted to and demoted from DTB based on the current survey. I don't recall the exact methodology but I'm pretty sure it is stickied in the DTB forum for your perusal.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

What makes a deck to beat?

A Deck to Beat is a deck which has at least 6.25% placements over the total Top 8 slots at 33+ person tournaments in the last month's tournaments (or the last ten tournaments, whichever is greater).

Should have done some more reading lol.

[Islandswamp]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

I have the same list as jim davis on mtgo. I have mostly played my modified version lately, and I too have come to dislike True Name Nemesis. I moved the TNN to the sideboard, I figure if I need to bring it in against a removal heavy deck I can, but honestly, I might just cut it for something else if need be.

My choice to remove TNN had to do a lot with wanting a higher percentage chance to blind flip a delver. So, I basically made room for more instants or sorceries. I also don't own a Liliana of the Veil yet, but I'm working on getting one or more to test out.

This is my list that I modified, although I still have several others saved:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
1 Flooded Strand
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
3 Force of Will
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Disfigure
3 Dark Confidant

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Divert
1 Marsh Casualties

Please excuse the ordering of the cards, mtgo doesn't sort the names when you export your list as a text file.

If I start running into more combo decks that I already am, one more spell pierce would be added in the place of something, probably Dark Confidant or Disfigure. I really like having four Stifle, it's very handy, and having four gives it a higher chance of being effective.

[KobeBryan]

i think the best thing suggested so far is the 2 of unearth/reanimate.

I'm going to test the shit outta these two cards

[drocker23]

On the Hymn versus Stifle debate, I think they are opposite side's of the same coin. The deck looks to deplete an opponent of resources, Hymn as cards in hand, and Stifle mainly as mana. Both have upsides, but I choose to run Hymn mainly because I just like the card better. In addition, I think Hymn offers you a 2-1, at the risk of sometimes being dead in the late game. Since we don't much want to be in the late game, I am willing to trade that off.

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.

I believe hymn is better served as a sideboard card that can be brought in in the match ups that you really want it against.

This way you can also get away with playing just 1 bayou instead of 2 and more copies of tropical island making it so that you have a much easier time casting your blue spells. Stifle aside I think it is way more important for this deck to be able to cast it's blue spells than it is to cast it's black ones. Whether it's casting delver on turn 1, or casting brainstorm or ponder with spell pierce backup, or having an actual island to bounce for Daze.

I don't think it's correct running 2 bayous and 1 tropical island in the hymn versions. Yes the hymn versions need the double black while also tapping for green for goyf, but I feel like you give up stability of your mana base as well as being able to cast your more important spells. Leave hymn in the sideboard where it belongs.

[btm10]

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.
.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. What's Hymn bad against other than Reaninator and Dredge? Whenever I've tested the Stifle versions they've just felt underpowered compared to the Hymn versions.

[H]

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.

I believe hymn is better served as a sideboard card that can be brought in in the match ups that you really want it against.

Of the 7 Decks to Beat on this board, I'd rather have Hymn over Stifle versus 5 of them, with 1 being what I could consider a push.

ANT, UWR Delver, UR, Omni-Tell, and RUG I would rather have Hymn, although versus RUG (and probably most builds of UR), neither Stifle nor Hymn is particularly good in my experience.

Versus Miracles, Stifle has some real good applications versus Miracles, but quickly removing their in hand resources puts them in a bad spot, especially if they don't have Top or you have locked it down.

I don't want Hymn versus Lands and Stifle could help if they go for Dark Depths, but that might only postpone the inevitable.

Continuing down the list:
Sneak and Show (Hymn)
Team America (I don't know, depends on how each player's draw comes together)
Grixis Control (probably Hymn)
Blade Control (Hymn, although Stifle could deal with SFM, but not very elegantly)
Death and Taxes (Neither is great, but I guess Stifle stays better longer)
Merfolk (I don't know if either is any good here, who still plays this?)
Deathblade (Hymn, Stifle is probably a bit worse here than against other Blade decks since DRS makes mana)
Elves (Both aren't great, but Stifle probably has more utility)
MUD (Chalice@1 is an issue, so probably Hymn)
Pox (Probably Stifle, Hymn seems bad)
Reanimator (Stifle)
Maverick (Neither seems very good, I guess Stifle has utility, Hymn can put them behind in the short game though)
BUG Control (another mirror? I don't know, probably Hymn)

That makes something like 6 decks I'd rather have Hymn, 3 where it's debatable or I'm not sure, and 4 where I feel it's clearly Stifle. That puts it at 11 for Hymn, 5 for Stifle, and 4 where I'd really not be sure. Even if I am wrong on a few of there, I can't see how Hymn is "a lot worse." At worst, it's a coin flip that depends on your meta.

I'm not sure which decks you are talking about that would make the amount of decks where Hymn is bad "a lot higher" but Hymn is also often very good versus random strategies.

Don't misconstrue my meaning though, it's not bad or wrong to run Stifle. In fact, it can be quite good, but so can Hymn.

[edahl]

Of the 7 Decks to Beat on this board, I'd rather have Hymn over Stifle versus 5 of them, with 1 being what I could consider a push.

ANT, UWR Delver, UR, Omni-Tell, and RUG I would rather have Hymn, although versus RUG (and probably most builds of UR), neither Stifle nor Hymn is particularly good in my experience.

Versus Miracles, Stifle has some real good applications versus Miracles, but quickly removing their in hand resources puts them in a bad spot, especially if they don't have Top or you have locked it down.

I don't want Hymn versus Lands and Stifle could help if they go for Dark Depths, but that might only postpone the inevitable.

Continuing down the list:
Sneak and Show (Hymn)
Team America (I don't know, depends on how each player's draw comes together)
Grixis Control (probably Hymn)
Blade Control (Hymn, although Stifle could deal with SFM, but not very elegantly)
Death and Taxes (Neither is great, but I guess Stifle stays better longer)
Merfolk (I don't know if either is any good here, who still plays this?)
Deathblade (Hymn, Stifle is probably a bit worse here than against other Blade decks since DRS makes mana)
Elves (Both aren't great, but Stifle probably has more utility)
MUD (Chalice@1 is an issue, so probably Hymn)
Pox (Probably Stifle, Hymn seems bad)
Reanimator (Stifle)
Maverick (Neither seems very good, I guess Stifle has utility, Hymn can put them behind in the short game though)
BUG Control (another mirror? I don't know, probably Hymn)

That makes something like 6 decks I'd rather have Hymn, 3 where it's debatable or I'm not sure, and 4 where I feel it's clearly Stifle. That puts it at 11 for Hymn, 5 for Stifle, and 4 where I'd really not be sure. Even if I am wrong on a few of there, I can't see how Hymn is "a lot worse." At worst, it's a coin flip that depends on your meta.

I'm not sure which decks you are talking about that would make the amount of decks where Hymn is bad "a lot higher" but Hymn is also often very good versus random strategies.

Don't misconstrue my meaning though, it's not bad or wrong to run Stifle. In fact, it can be quite good, but so can Hymn.

I think most of the midrange/control mathcups you mention you probably want Hymn, like Blade and BUG control, is the very reason we want Stifle. These decks want little to nothing more than to make land drops (and shuffle their Brainstorms). Stifle is, after all, a 1-mana replacement for Team America's BB Sinkhole.

[H]

I think most of the midrange/control mathcups you mention you probably want Hymn, like Blade and BUG control, is the very reason we want Stifle. These decks want little to nothing more than to make land drops (and shuffle their Brainstorms). Stifle is, after all, a 1-mana replacement for Team America's BB Sinkhole.

The problem is, when hitting their lands, if they just play more, you've done nothing. Also, Stifling their SFM is pretty bad if they happen to have an equipment in their hand. I'd rather (literally) roll the dice and try to hit the TNN and/or equipment in their hand, than Stifle them and pray they don't draw a third land and just play TNN. Versus Deathblade it's even worse, since if they play an early Deathrite it makes mana denial a much worse proposition.

Again, these are my interpretations, if you feel that Stifle is better there, so be it. However, saying that Hymn is "a lot worse" doesn't really stand to reason, since Hymn is still good versus a bunch of the meta.

[Manipulato]

I tested the Stifle version a bit against DnT & Storm.

Against DnT Stifle is strict better and more flexible than Hymn but I lost most games against them no matter if stifle or hymn, so....

Against Storm Stifle were not really great, sure I could stifle a couple of fetches but thats it...Hymn would have won me all games...Attacking them from different angles is the way to victory.

Also the Stifle build is really more difficult to play and needs always perfect decisions and good timing which can be exhausting in longer turneys.

So I´m back on the Hymn train now.

[edahl]

The problem is, when hitting their lands, if they just play more, you've done nothing. Also, Stifling their SFM is pretty bad if they happen to have an equipment in their hand. I'd rather (literally) roll the dice and try to hit the TNN and/or equipment in their hand, than Stifle them and pray they don't draw a third land and just play TNN. Versus Deathblade it's even worse, since if they play an early Deathrite it makes mana denial a much worse proposition.

Again, these are my interpretations, if you feel that Stifle is better there, so be it. However, saying that Hymn is "a lot worse" doesn't really stand to reason, since Hymn is still good versus a bunch of the meta.

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

@Manipulato: Did you get occasion to Stifle the storm trigger? :)

[Manipulato]

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

@Manipulato: Did you get occasion to Stifle the storm trigger? :)

It´s difficult to hold up/surprise with stifle when your opponent has Duress, Cabal Therapy & Gitaxian Probe

[H]

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

I don't disagree, RUG has been doing it for years and I'm not trying to hate on Stifle at all. This conversation started with me saying that Stifle and Hymn are both good, they just do things differently. Milage is also going to depend on the local meta and play-style. For me, I'd rather play more of a tap-out style, but that is my preference. I have found I win a lot more often when I play Hymn than when I don't (but I admit, I have never played Stifle in BUG).

I respect Jim Davis, he is a much better player than me and probably a much better deck-builder. However, I see real issues with his Stifle build; mainly that you have fewer ways to truly capitalize on the tempo you gain, because your Delvers don't flip as consistently as RUG's and you don't have Lightning Bolt.

I know you wouldn't say Hymn is "a lot worse" that was drocker23,

I know if seemed as if I was making the case that Hymn is better than Stifle, but that wasn't my intention at all. It was to present a theory that Hymn is at least as good as Stifle.

[Esper3k]

I tested the Stifle version a bit against DnT & Storm.

Against DnT Stifle is strict better and more flexible than Hymn but I lost most games against them no matter if stifle or hymn, so....

Against Storm Stifle were not really great, sure I could stifle a couple of fetches but thats it...Hymn would have won me all games...Attacking them from different angles is the way to victory.

Also the Stifle build is really more difficult to play and needs always perfect decisions and good timing which can be exhausting in longer turneys.

So I´m back on the Hymn train now.

I disagree that Stifle is strictly better than Hymn vs DnT. Having no cantrips to smooth their draw, while DnT generates consistency through redundancy, it's still fundamentally just reliant on whatever is randomly coming off the top of their library. Second, DnT also does not generate much card advantage. When you Hymn them, you both increase the inconsistency of their deck while also reducing their long term options (by generating card advantage for yourself).

[edahl]

@H Haha, Stifle being more difficult to play makes consider Hymning on days where I haven't had coffee :P. That said I do miss Bolt from RUG and love this list to death http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15927&iddeck=118742

@Manipulato, yeah, thought about that just after I wrote it, heh. It does happen though!

My tourney being in a couple of hours I've more or less settled on this:

md:
1 Liliana
3 Bob
4 shaman, goyf, delver
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 force
4 ponder
4 bs
2 spell pierce
4 daze, stifle, wasteland
3 underground sea
2 trop
1 bayou
8 fetches

sb:
1 force
1 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
1 liliana
1 vendilion clique
1 divert
1 maelstrom pulse
1 decay
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 null rod
1 surgical
2 cage