Miracle Control

[klaus]

I count 60.

The rest in peace was underwhelming to me since I have to tap out to have it in play in a timely manner. With 3 snapcasters, surgical isn't unreasonable but I also like the relic/RiP slot in against BUG strategies to hurt goyf/tasigur/deathrite and surgical just doesn't do that.

My bad.
How have 21 land been treatin you thusfar?

[twndomn]

Running eins newest list how should I be approaching the enchantress matchup, I feel as the games go longer I'm less and less favored to win. If they slip one draw engine through the cracks it's almost manageable, but as soon as the second comes down even with counter top there's not much left to do. I'm at a bit of a loss while boarding too, I've been leaving 1 terminus in just in case some of the creatures sneak through. Not sure if this is right though. Opinions would be appreciated!

I don't understand your SB. You should take out all the StP and leave in Terminus. You cannot target Argothian, that would leave Terminus/EE/Verdict as your method of removing her if she ever hits play.

If the game goes long, you're doing something wrong. There're only 2 things you need to do:
1. Don't get caught by Choke. Do NOT play JtMS into Choke.
2. As long as you counter/remove every single card that has the word Enchantress (Argoithan/Presence) on it, that deck cannot beat you.

Let's say you've failed on point 2, only 1 Enchantress has resolved, you can try to Entreat ASAP to race before he either finds another Enchantress or finds the correct enchantment.

[aex]

I was boarding as such;

-4 stp
-3/4 terminus

+3 clique
+1 entreat
+1 counterspell
+1 disenchant
+1 ee
(+1) relic (for replenish)

If that helps.

Here is my opponents list;
http://pastebin.com/bu6EUKXK

Regards.

[Tammit67]

My bad.
How have 21 land been treatin you thusfar?

Ponder/brainstorm/top have been fine for finding lands, though the easiest way to lose is not making the land drops. i can certainly see another land being good.

[twndomn]

Who cares about game 1 from a mathematical point of view? What only matters is overall win %, unless you get tilted after a game 1 loss.

"Miracles is slightly favored," said Phillip Braverman, regarding this MU, in the new podcast.

Ponder/brainstorm/top have been fine for finding lands, though the easiest way to lose is not making the land drops. i can certainly see another land being good.

Instead or risking Ponder-1-land hand on turn 1 to find 2nd land drop, why not just have more lands so you don't frequently get into this 1-land mulligan dilemma? I'm not suggesting 24 btw.

[klaus]

@Tammit67 - I agree that not finding land #3/4 immediately is back back breaking more often than not.

Instead or risking Ponder-1-land hand on turn 1 to find 2nd land drop, why not just have more lands so you don't frequently get into this 1-land mulligan dilemma? I'm not suggesting 24 btw.

I was alluding at that, though 24 seems overkill imo, as that amount also negatively affects the CB curve. 22-23 (depending on the build) seems quite correct.
I used to rock 24 back in the Landstill days, but that was w/o Top and Ponder and also paying dues to the need to consistantly land-drop while Standstill is online.

[YamiJoey]

Instead or risking Ponder-1-land hand on turn 1 to find 2nd land drop, why not just have more lands so you don't frequently get into this 1-land mulligan dilemma? I'm not suggesting 24 btw.

Because 2 Lands + Ponder is better than 3 Lands, and you keep 1-Land Ponder + 4 good cards every single time. Because On turn 12 you want to draw a Ponder, see an extra card, and then shuffle, draw, and see an extra three, because you need to close out a game. Not an Island. Because Ponder - quite simply - is the single best card that will never be up for being banned in Legacy. Because save Brainstorm, Ponder wins you more games than any other card in the deck.

T1 Ponder is the best play you can make in Legacy that doesn't involve a Tendrils of Agony, and even then it's close.

[mike1987]

I have been playing Ein's list for a bit now and i often ran into this problem. I know that playing 4 ponder means we can be greedier with our opening seven but i often drew a one land hand with a ponder/top. How often will you guys advocate keeping this hand? I will definitely mulligan if i am playing against delver decks/wasteland heavy decks but i might keep if i am playing against others(of course depending on what is my other 5 cards).

Secondly, Michael Majors suggested playing Monastery Mentor in the place of a few jaces and entreats. Has anyone playtested the list and how did it pan out for you?

[Einherjer]

Never mulligan a hand with a land and a cantrip. Just don't.

Greetings

[klaus]

Never mulligan a hand with a land and a cantrip. Just don't.

Greetings

* Plains, Brainstorm, +5
* or Island, Ponder, 2 Terminus, EtA, Jace, +1
..would like to have a word with you.

[YamiJoey]

Pedantic
noun
Being a dick when someone gives good advice.

[decan]

Totally agree here with Philipp. 4 ponder and 21 lands is totally okay. You guys are creating cases that happen once every 50 matches or so. the 4 ponder list is probably the most consistent list in all of legacy. all you need is a cantrip and a blue mana source in your opening hand. An additional card in your opening hand is just so valuable in legacy.

what im not sure about is:

T1 Ponder is the best play you can make in Legacy that doesn't involve a Tendrils of Agony, and even then it's close.

Is this the correct line? against an unknown opponent. lets say opening hand is: sword, snapcaster, ponder, island, flooded strand, jace, terminus and you are on the play.
Not the best hand but imo totally fine and keepable. Do you ponder here on turn one? I dont think so. maybe you only want a brainstorm out of the top 3 cards. so on turn 2 you can fetch away the other crappy cards.
Maybe Philipp can write a few sentences on how to maximize the value of ponder. Also i would be interested in how different the deck performs with 9 instead of 10 fetchlands. I believe a fifth island would help against stifle. has this been in consideration?

[kiblast]

lets say opening hand is: sword, snapcaster, ponder, island, flooded strand, jace, terminus and you are on the play.
Not the best hand but imo totally fine and keepable. Do you ponder here on turn one? I dont think so.

Ponder turn 1 is a no brainer here and you don't even need to look for something specific. Brainstorm would be amazing, of course, but also Top would be a nice find, and you both keep them on top in order to protect them from discard.
There is really no Ponder guide, it all depends on:

1: What you are facing? What's the amount of information you have regarding opponent's deck/hand in the moment you cast Ponder?
2: After you have some/all the information you need regarding point 1, what do you expect to happen in the next turn? and in two turns? (in case you don't have any info at all, just goldfish keeping key cards protected from discard safely on top of your library)
3: What are the correct plays and the specific cards you need in the following two turns?
4: Congrats, now you can't misplay Ponder!

[decan]

Ponder turn 1 is a no brainer here and you don't even need to look for something specific. Brainstorm would be amazing, of course, but also Top would be a nice find, and you both keep them on top in order to protect them from discard.
There is really no Ponder guide, it all depends on:

1: What you are facing? What's the amount of information you have regarding opponent's deck/hand in the moment you cast Ponder?
2: After you have some/all the information you need regarding point 1, what do you expect to happen in the next turn? and in two turns? (in case you don't have any info at all, just goldfish keeping key cards protected from discard safely on top of your library)
3: What are the correct plays and the specific cards you need in the following two turns?
4: Congrats, now you can't misplay Ponder!

well I disagree. after reading this post im more confused then ever. But following your logic here:
1. I dont know what im facing since its turn one, game 1 and im on the play.
2. I dont know what i have 2 expect.
3. How the heck im supposed 2 know what i need?
4. Okay, thanks.

My understanding is that there are 8 great cards i want 2 find: 4 BS 4 Top, at the same time i have 5 more miracles, 2 Jaces and 1 DTT i dont want.

[Higgs]

Pedantic
noun
Being a dick when someone gives good advice.

Lol :) But I agree with klaus to a certain extent. I know Ein is a very good player and all but when you start acting like a celebrity and post like that you will have pedancitiy (c'mon scrabble guys) coming your way.

[Baba]

lets say opening hand is: sword, snapcaster, ponder, island, flooded strand, jace, terminus and you are on the play.
Not the best hand but imo totally fine and keepable. Do you ponder here on turn one? I dont think so. maybe you only want a brainstorm out of the top 3 cards. so on turn 2 you can fetch away the other crappy cards.

Well if you're playing against a creature deck, you don't have to turn 1 ponder. Since you have the luxery of just playing an island on turn 1, then Ponder + Swords on turn 2. And you don't have to worry about being dead in 2-3 turns, the game will probably go long because you have Snapcaster Mage and Terminus in hand already as well. So if you have that much information, then it's a good play.

However, if you're playing an unknown opponent, this hand is just plain bad against combo. I'd actually recommend searching for any anti-combo cards such as Force of Will, Counterbalance or any other counterspell straight from the get-go. In case you might fear a discard spell, you should leave the found-counterspell on top so you can always use it turn 2. Most combo decks don't win turn 1 anyway, which is something you already decided when keeping this hand.

Edit: Oh, and hello everyone! This is my first post. Been playing Miracles for some time now, thought I'd join in the discussion.

[Cipher]

T1 Ponder is the best play you can make in Legacy that doesn't involve a Tendrils of Agony, and even then it's close.

Wow. Nevermind the fact that Top is obviously the turn 1 play that you invariably want from this deck, and that Ponder is just filler designed to streamline the deck; you actually now believe that it's the best turn 1 play in Legacy? Ponder is at most a 2-of in any archetype that doesn't have a specific need for the velocity or a specific interaction with it (read: Delver/Combo/Miracles). You don't run it in Shardless or Esper because it doesn't actually accomplish anything. Legacy becoming more and more a midrange creature format has made it better in recent years, but it's still fundamentally a sorcery-speed cantrip with a negligible effect on the game (Scry 3). Your deck needs a specific gameplan for the mana cost to even be justified.

[YamiJoey]

Cards you don't want also make Ponder worth casting. Can't afford to draw a Terminus/Entreat on T1? Ponder makes sure you won't. It also mulligans any bomb heavy draws, or if you're just looking for action of any kind, you can Ponder away Lands and dig cards to spin for some Swords and Counterspells.

T1 Ponder is the best play in Legacy because it requires no additional input from any other cards, and you can still gain a huge edge when you're on the play G1. You ensure that your counter-heavy hand is able to interact with a Delver, or you can ensure that your Counterbalance has a reasonable card to flip on T2 if it calls for it, and sets you up to find more cantrips and Tops later on.

[Quasim0ff]

I'd argue that T1 ponder is the safest play you can make, not the strongest.

[Tammit67]

Instead or risking Ponder-1-land hand on turn 1 to find 2nd land drop, why not just have more lands so you don't frequently get into this 1-land mulligan dilemma? I'm not suggesting 24 btw.

Honestly if it is my 7 card on the play is 1 land brainstorm, I'm probably shipping it. I've yet to feel there aren't enough lands, since once you hit your second, you can really use the cantrips/top to really hit whatever you need.

If 4 brainstorm + 4 ponder is good enough for URW delver to hit 20 lands when it wants, why can't 4 brainstorm + 4 ponder + 4 top be good enough on 21 lands?