There are more 2 or less toughness creatures which need to be killed asap in legacy (stoneforge, deathrite, mother of runes, thalia etc.) than in modern.Originally Posted by Nina
@Burnwillows
Congratz on the top 16! Are you taking legacy burn to a big tourney or just locally. The MD 60 probably stays the same but board might change. Have you played legacy burn, or even just legacy before?
Reanimator, Show and X decks, Miracles,Enchantress, and Storm decks are a tought fight with a low percentage of winning against them. Dredge is even a hard match up without a minimum of three hate cards for it. Burn is easy to pilot, but takes skill to bring it to another level of not just slinging fire to the face. Learning the stack is and knowing what cards to look out for in particular decks is something I would research if you're not intimate with what's around.
I second that: Burn is cheap, but that's about it. Hard to master, it needs skill to wield correctly. This isn't Modern; there are cards in Legacy that can ruin your game, even without you ever play or draw a card.
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Posted this in the less active forum so I'll try it again here!
I've actually settled upon Burn as my first Legacy deck to play while I build Deathblade. Anyone know any decent video primers explaining some of the intricacies of the deck? I know if looks simple to pilot but has many complex decisions and if I'm playing a deck I want to play it well!
With 4 md Eidolon of the Great Revel, and 1-2 Pyrostatic Pillar in the board, storm is a match-up I feel quite comfortable with. I've never played against Enchantress but all the other decks are definitely a pain. We can race them, however! I currently run 2 Relics and 1 Tomb for my graveyard package. The relics sometimes come in in match-ups where a cantrip is slightly better than something else, but it feels slow where it matters most. What are ppl using as their graveyard package? I'm thinking of moving to something like 1-1-1 Cage, Tomb, Relic. Cage is another card that would make our storm match-up even more comfortable (to the extent that it is).
The needles in my board are for Top and Jace, though I feel 2 may be too many. We can with luck win through and active Jace, because we can just ignore their cards for a couple turns and kill them. Counter-top however is just almost impossible. What are your plans against miracles?
I run the following 75. Took it to a 4-0 finish in a daily a few days ago :) Was surprised at how strong burn actually is (with a bit of luck).
Creatures (11)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells (29)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands (20)
12 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt
Last edited by edahl; 02-28-2015 at 11:03 AM.
I'd love to see a primer too. I guess a good place to start is this SCG playlist, usually commentated by Patrick Sullivan who is obviously great at the deck https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ion_1042894703. Things to keep in mind though is playing around soft counters, which of course also means knowing which decks play them and in what numbers. If you're playing into hard counters, do it on their upkeep to drain their mana for the turn. Casting spells at their eot is often a good way to sidestep counters. This is probably obvious, but coming from a deck that did all its stuff sorcery speed, it's something I had to learn :P. Searing Blaze is super good, and fetching on their turn turns on landfall. In the mirror it's not uncommon for people to board in Dragon's Claw to tip the race in their favour. This is a match-up where it's not uncommon to board in Relic because so many cards are just worse than a cantrip (4 pop and 1-2 vortex). I prefer to side in a couple Smash to Smithereens and all the Searing Bloods for maximum carnage. People are often good at playing around pop, and even the decks it's supposed to be good against play Wasteland to limit the damage caused. Searing effects, however, are usually strong against decks with Wasteland. Personally I may consider moving a pop to the board for another Searing Blaze maindeck. Oh, and jam creatures, they're super good and must-answer in most cases. Even though Grim Lavamancer may seem slow and do-nothing, left unchecked it's a house.
@ edahl: P-Needle does not stop LED, Revoker does.
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Yup, ups, fixed it.
The other thing to do is to build-up spells in your hand, just drop lands. They will want to cast a spell at some point, that's when you bombard them with what you have in hand. (obviously only works with instants) Play your spells (instants) when they tap lands, never play into control hands by going gung-ho on your turn, you can do the same thing that control does which is to play your spells in your opponents turn.
Yeah, the thing to keep in mind is that Grim Lavamancer is fundamentally a board control tool, you get it on board primarily to deal with DRS, SM, Delver and Co. If left unchecked then you can also go rampant on the 2 damage to the player, but never go for the 2 damage if you even suspect that it would prevent you from removing some of target creatures... unless its the last 2 damage to end the game!
I'm not too fond of Pithing Needle as most cards I care about don't have activated abilities. Circle of Protection: Red is one of them and I put two Needles in my board just for it for one store I attend since I've been a victim of it in one's SB.
As for graveyard hate, I've been a victim of Dredge being the only deck defeating me at SCG:Oakland three times, so I switched Relic for Crypt. I want to spend my mana for damage spells only. The draw card is nice, and so is shrinking Goyf and slowing/stopping Delve is great, but doing these things is useless if you just die.
With the printing of Eidolon, Storm is a bit more comfortable MU for us, but turn one or two(on the draw) kills is something of a realization in Legacy. I think that if your store has a lot of Storm combo, something extra is a nice thing to have in the side.
I can't speak for Miracles MU personally, but I have read some useful info regarding it. Things like don't put Rift Bolt on suspend is valuable info because the Miracles player will probably stack their deck accordingly. Miracles is a deck that you need to learn and understand the stack for. Having Eidolon and Vortex is play are things that shouldn't be spent frivolously and Shusher isn't end all against them either. I have Sudden Shock in my SB for the increase of Infect decks in both of my stores, so I side out PoP and take out some number of Searing effects for the third Vortex from my side. That would be my sideboard plan.
My deck:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sudden Shock(turns into 2 and 2 Pithing Needle depending on the shop)
1 Sulfuric Vortex
I usually pack two, as there are always a couple of SnT, Miracles, and Painter in my meta. Recently there has been an increase of Reanimator as well.
I'm still debating if I made the right choice, but currently I'm packing Fairie Macabre. Didn't test it against Dredge, and I doubt it would do any good, apart from some obvious cards of course... I'm going to try Crypt as well.
I am intrigued by the use of Sudden Shock. It looks like a really good option against Infect, but also (some) permission decks. I will be testing it for myself. Thanks for sharing!
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
The online meta is full of Miracles. I'm going to give Sudden Shock a try too. I definitely find PoP lackluster in the Miracles matchup while I'm learning to respect Pyroblast for countering CB (trying 1 needle, 3 blast). Though I like the idea of Sudden Shock against Infect, I could also see Flame Rift helping the Miracles match up so that's something I'll have to consider. I like the idea of 4 Searing Blaze mb but I don't feel comfortable cutting neither a Vortex nor a Mountain. If any of them, the Vortex may go, hoping for a quick combo win G1. What's your experience running 19 land? I run 2 Searing Blood in the board that may well become Sudden Shocks for the purpose of testing: Searing Blood in creature matchups is very hit and miss. I've jumped on Crypt as well: having a 0-mana gy hate in matchups where speed and maybe even Pyroblast is so important is obviously great.
Sudden Shock isn't a for sure thing against Infect, but it helps a lot. Two mana on the draw and you could be dead against them already. Just remember to kill their creature on your turn. Pump spells is how they will save their creature. I suppose it can help in Delver MUs as well.
I haven't tested Faerie Macabre. It looks like it would be a similar problem that Surgical Extraction/Extirpate and Deathrite Shaman have though, in that Dredge just overloads the use of the hate that they power through it. Let me know how it goes, however. Making sure that my hate doesn't get locked by Needle or blown up by Abrupt Decay is amazing.
Running nineteen lands is easy. Finding my second drop is usually on time, while the third is sketchy some games, but I would rather have the Vortex than the extra land. That's just how I like it and I can't justify it. I'm not a fan of non damage spells, which is why I cut Bridge from my board and never ran Blast. While playing in Modern, I find that spells that deal no damage bring the game out too late which is where this deck doesn't want to be.
Split Second doesn't stop Counterbalance triggers, so intuitive Miracles players can play around it, or are ready for it. It makes their game plan difficult, I would imagine. Three and four mana spells are their weak spots in CMC.
As for Searing Blaze, I havent a problem with setting off Landfall. My two stores have quite a bit of creature decks so it's usually live. I wouldn't mind being able to squeeze in Searing Blood into my board, but I just can't make it fit. I run Blaze over Blood because it doesn't matter if the creature dies, but Blood gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Sanctity hasn't made a showing in either stores just yet.
Could you review your sideboard for us? You have Pyroblast listed in two different places with different numbers. And then could you tell us how you sideboarded, if you can remember. I know I can never remember, but some can. I would also switch your Grafdigger's Cage with something that actually removes the graveyard. Situations like your where they Claim it and then combo off is an easy occurance.Didn't do so well in the Legacy tourney due to bad luck and bad matchups, went 2-3. I'm not aware of any major punts that I made, but then again, this was my first time playing the deck, so I'm not sure.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Searing Blaze
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyroblast
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Pyroblast
Round 1: Elves 1-2
G1: I start the races off by burning some of his early relevant threats and putting a bit of pressure on him. He eventually assembles enough mana and combos off.
G2: T1 removal for his creature, T2 Eidolon. I start beating down and finish him off with burn.
G3: I keep a good 1-lander, but fail to draw into a land for two turns. A turn earlier and the game's outcome would've been drastically different. I get beaten down by a Scooze and some green men.
Round 2: Miracle-Blade 0-2
G1: Mull to five on my part. I proceed to get dismantled by CB+Top and Batterskull.
G2: Mull to six on my part. My hand has quite a few threats, but his hand has quite a few counters.He finishes me off with TNN+Jitte after stabilizing.
Round 3: Miracle-Blade 1-2
G1: Cool, get to face another one of these decks.Alright, I start the game off with a Goblin Guide and start beating and burning him down. He can't find any lifegain and succumbs shortly.
G2: T1, I cast Guide, he Swords before damage. T2, I cast Eidolon, he Forces. T3, I attempt a Price of Progress, which he Pierces. He makes land drops and beats down with Batterskull.
G3: We both mull to six, and I keep an iffy hand with two action spells and lands. I don't get there and topdeck lands for the rest of the game.
Round 4: Dredge 2-1 (At this point, I'm feeling pretty bad, but I play out the next rounds for experience.)
G1: So we each start goldfishing and he kills me while at 3 life as I fail to topdeck a burn spell of any kind. GG, Dredge...
G2: I land a Grafdigger's and have burn spells to finish him off.
G3: I land a Grafdigger's and start burning him out, but he destroys it with a Nature's Claim a few turns later. Alas, he doesn't find much action and I kill him with double Guide.
Round 5: Sneak and Show 2-0
G1: I keep a god hand and kill him on T4 with little interaction.
G2: He mulls to five and I have an Ensnaring Bridge+Burn. GG.
I definitely like the deck, but need to get more experience and testing in with it. My eventual goal is to expand into a Delver variant, but for now, I'm happy with the deck. Next time I'll hopefully be able to keep good hands.
How do you feel about Swiftspear?
Elves, I would side out Lava Spike instead of Rift. Rift hits creatures, even if it's delayed. Some Elves players will see Rift and possibly hold off a creature that they don't want to have bolted. That can play in your favor of board control and that's where you need to be against that deck. Grim would have been great against this one if you had it.
Miracles I would never side out Fireblast completely in any MU really. I would have taken out PoP instead of Fireblast since PoP is nearly a dead card. Guide will feed their craving for land, so I probably would have taken Guide out instead of Swiftspear. I also would have kept the Smash in the side and brought in Bridge. That could be a bad play though as I haven't seen Miracle Blade before and I've never played against Miracles with Burn yet. I'm not sure what you're trying to tag with it beside SDT? Moving on, I feel like you're trying to play a control game against Miracles and you're just going to be outclassed about it. Keep the blasts in the side for the Delver decks.
I would have left Bridge in the side. I've been run over before I could even cast it and even then my hand was never empty enough to stop 2/2s. Keep the Searing effects in. It removes creatures and deals damage. I would have kept the Blaze and Spike.
I can't say much about Show decks. The only one I've come across was Omnitell, but again not much experience there. I think you're playing too much into a control game against superior control decks. Mull to your hate in match ups where it's absolutely needed(quick kill decks), and try not to side out too much of your damage spells. It's easy to forget that this is a combo deck and siding out too much of what makes the deck work waters down its goal of burning players out. Usually siding out four or more combo spells to make room for sideboard cards can do this.
Also, I dislike Swiftspear. The success she's had in Delver decks is due to them chaining cantrips. She also doesn't play well with Eidolon, which against Delver decks, Eidolon is the superior card.
Keep/ board everything in that can kill creatures.
I dropped Swiftspear from my own list, but if I would keep her in if she was MD. Miracles runs a lot of fetch: PoP is actually pretty good for messing up the top card, so I would only shave some. Here, I would board in P-Needle, if it was in my SB.
Also, don't suspend Rift Bolt, rather pay the full cmc.
Miracles is one of the reasons why I splash green for K-Grip. I loath everything about this deck
Again, keep/ board in everything that can kill (your) creatures: I would first start with taking Lava Spike out when boarding in Ensnaring Bridge. Then again, you want to race them, so taking out Vortex makes a lot if sense.
Jup, would have boarded the same with your SB.
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
@burnwillows
It looks like your sideboard has little help for elves. Cage stops NO but in my limited testing I don't like e-bridge. I just board out the 2 vortex and a lava spike for my 3 searing blaze. As far as sneak and show goes I disagree with your sideboard plan. Sulfuric vortex stops the life gain from grislebrand and price hits way too hard to side out. Searing blaze doesn't kill anything in that MU so I'd dump that first.
My last couple run ins with miracles at my LGS have not ended well for me. Before my next large tourney I am going to mess with a couple sb slots. I think I am going to dump the 2 SB pyroblasts for 2 vexing shushers or more likely 2 pithing needles or null rods. I have found myself only bringing pyroblasts for miracles so if I am going to have 2 slots dedicated to that MU I want it to be more impactful. I'm testing nullrod first as it seems more likely to resolve later in the game and has splash hate for LED. I ran 2 shushers before and know they are very effective against miracles so that will prolly be the fall back if I'm not digging the artifacts. Lemme know what you guys think about those choices.
Um I don't know if you want to board out Sulfuric Vortex vs. Sneak attack. The ability to turn off Griselbrand's life gain is kind of huge. Plus that deck also you know, ussually runs 4 leyline.
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