Try fitting them in a list and goldfishing that list a number of times rather than just suggesting it.
Lists at the beginning of this deck's genesis (summer 2012) played Goyfs. Tyler Tyssedal had a camera match in an SCG-open with a list that had Goyfs coming out of the sideboard.Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Back then, the deck was somewhat more of a combo deck than today and as such the goyf's felt like a poor fit to me. I've never tried though. It would be interesting to hear anyone with experience with this. I personally have a hard time seeing how to fit 4 goyfs in to the list I'm currently playing. Also, I think - in a sort of backwards way - that having access to Misthollow Griffin kind of fills up the same space as Goyf would. Or maybe not the same space, but it means we don't need a vanilla beater on the ground to force through damage or gum up the ground to prolong the game.
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@ Echelon, I ask because there may have been some good reason that its not run that I do not know of. As for testing, I actually have put 4 in a list and tried it out. Its been less explosive than the original version, but stands up better to delver decks and can actually put them on the back foot since a goyf can race delver/drs.
As for cuts, I took out 1 clique, 1 misthollow, 1 birds of paradise, and 1 force of will (kept the misdirection over the 4th force, but that can be switched around). I haven't been missing the 4th misthollow or the clique too much because they are so high up on the curve for a deck with only 20 lands. I find that the goyfs are basically walls 5-8 in the deck that can reliably block opposing goyfs/germ tokens. In the previous version, if you didnt find a baleful, you had to toss bodies in front of large goyfs just to survive the onslaught (assuming the griffin chain wasn't online).
@Jesper: Did you ever consider something like Vela instead of Emrakul for your win condition? Vela gets fetched by Empath as well and wins on the spot and through things that shut Emrakul down (namely, Ensnaring Bridge).
Vela night be good but I don't want to expose myself to Plowshares and the likes when I combo off. The extra turn has always been an autowin for me, and since I play 4 abrupt I can try to use them wisely. I have a very cautious playstyle, always preferring the safer option for better and for worse. Since I have played the deck a couple of years, I have found a build that suits me well. Also, I feel spot removal is more common than bridge effects. How do you feel about it - have you tried Vela successfully?
Tested jamming some goyfs into the deck in a daily, they were acceptable but not irreplaceable - as expected.
Faced omnitell 2-0, reanimator 2-0, rug delver 2-0 and miracles 2-1 so I got to enjoy a good ride and didn't have to slog through burn or such.
Miracles is, I feel, a very good mu for us - they really struggle to deal with griffins and I consider this a strong pull to this deck. Drs also remains to be awesome and this deck even abuses her slightly, sometimes.
I played the 2 empath 1 tasigur package and I like how it operates. I will keep that for now.
I won a whopping total of 0 games with the combo, and tend to let them force my FC unless I have the win in hand.
I grind most of my wins with dork beatdown, mostly misthollows from the draw 4 and I feel like this is a sound gameplan in most mu's - which I found a little surprising as I had not expected jamming 4 mana 3/3's to work out this well in modern legacy.
Played the following to a 4-1 record at my LGS last night:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Misdirection
2 Thought Scour
4 Food Chain
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dimir Charm
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
Tasigur and T.Scour really overperformed.
Thought Scour:
I tried this as the Cantrip of choice over ponders, and I was not dissapointed.
Between resetting the top after brainstorms as well as ponder, being instant speed was an added bonus.
Turning on DRS, DTTs and Tasigurs was really awesome, and will be testing these out the next few times I play the deck to see if last night was an indication on what to expect.
Tasigur:
While I only drew him once, he basically won that round for me. That the resolved on turn 2 and was online turn 3 did not hurt either :) He is a roadblock, that has a added bonus of removing griffs and a relevant bonus ability. He also serves as massive ramp via FC.
Short recap of rounds.
R1: Mirror (WTF? :D A good buddy who picked it up after seing Nevilshutes and my own endavours with the deck)
G1: I outdraw him and get the combo online rather fast. 1-0
G2: turn 2 tasigur means that our trading rescources with fows and misdirections leaves me on top and I eventually combo him out. 2-0
1-0, 2-0
R2: MUD
G1: I win dieroll and know what I am up against. Keep a hand which includes T1 DRS from fetched swamp, meaning my 2x decays kan take out moons and chalices, which it turns out was neccesary since he turn 2 moons. I spent my turn 2 playing FC and after removing his moon it is soon after done via Griff beat down. 2-0
G2: Again we end up in grind mode and he could have punished an overly aggressive pursuit of the the win on my part. Luckily he punts and forgemasters up a wurmcoil and boots it up and swing to gain some life against my otherwise leathal griffs. He just forgot FC was online and able to migate his lifegain. :O) 2-0
2-0, 4-0
R3: Omni
G1: He has lots of gaz and i flood. Not a great MU is really bad when flooded. 0-1
G2: This time i have enough permission and he concedes the turn before I combo out to preserve time for G3. 1-1
G3: Game 3 goes back and forth with some discard and counters on both sides, until a brainstorm bricks for a land for him. I can endstep clique and take a relevant card and i have now FC online along with 4 griffs. 2-1
3-0, 6-1
R4: Reanimator
G1: I rarely keep a 7 W/O DRS against reanimator (he played r3 next to me so knew what he was on) but had Fow, fow, drs, bstorm, griffin, land, scour.
He mulls to 6 and Turns out i have enough permission to via cantrips set up a turn 5 combo win. 1-0
G2: He has a turn 2 gris with force backup. 1-1
G3: I open on relic, drs, fow, decay, fow, and something. Needles to say that even though he needles my drs, this is rather quickly over. Only thing dragging it on is me being stuck on 2 lands far longer than what is desired in the MU. 2-1
4-0, 8-2
R5: Chalice Merfolks
Dont recall a whole lot from this round, but i end up losing 2-1 after 3 very close games. G3 I had 3 turns to find a FC for the win, but did not even through dual brainstorms and a hydra for 5 or 6.
4-1, 9-4 in games
In all a great evering, with me ending in second place, good for some 20ish EURs. (my breakers were insane, OP Wins% 76 :D )
Wouldnt change much MB, other than maybe squezing in an additional t.scour and just maybe a tasigur#2 or DTT#3.
Great deck is great. Sidenote: 3 man (Nevilshute, myself +1) on FC out of 23 players in out LGS :D
Well, like Jedi already mentioned we were 3... 3! Food Chain decks in our 23 person tournament
Played the following list to a 3-2 finish:
4x Food Chain
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Genesis Hydra
4x Force of Will
4x Misthollow Griffin
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Dig Through Time
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Murderous Cut
1x Vela the Night-Clad
1x Misdirection
4x Baleful Strix
2x Bayou
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Golgari Charm
3x Meddling Mage
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
2x Disfigure
Rnd 1: BUG Delver (2-1).
Feel good about this matchup but I mulligan to a passable but not great hand of six. I get overwhelmed by goyfs and can't keep up. Win game 2 as I'm in much better shape to grind out. Game 3 is a let down as my opponent mulligans into oblivion and finally keeps a 5-card no lander. No contest.
Rnd 2: Merfolk (0-2).
I don't like how this matchup feels. Packrats with island walk means it usually going to be a rough ride unless we can get the combo online. Game 1 is me playing catchup all game and never getting there. Game 2 is frustrating as I am finally able to do something on like turn 5 with my opponent having lethal the following turn. I have Food Chain in play and a Hydra in hand. My board is Deathrite, Birds of Paradise and 3 lands. I draw Vela the Night-Clad and decide to go for a Hydra for X = 7 (could have made X = 8 but wanted to play around Daze. My opponent was on 2 cards in hand). I completely whiff as I reveal 5 lands, a Murderous Cut and an Abrupt Decay. Sad panda.
Rnd 3: TES (2-1).
I put up a fight in game 1 with a Deathrite and 2 forces. Eventually my opponent gets to resolve Ad Nauseam at 11 life and gets there. I have a ton of stuff in my sideboard for this matchup. I get to catch him way off guard with Meddling Mage as he afterwards reveal he hadn't boarded to handle. Multiple Thoughtseizes help out. Game 3 I mulligan to 4 and get a hand of Thoughtseize, Deathrite and 2 lands. I narrowly in as my opponent doesn't get any action for some turns and I eventually have him at 11 again, with an active Deathrite and he resolves Ad Nauseam. He drops to 3 life and has the kill in front of him, or so I think, as I'm looking at enough to make exactly 6 mana and a Burning Wish. It turns out, however, that he boarded in his Tendrils so he has nothing relevant to get from his sideboard. He eventually gets a Massacre to kill my deathrite and strix. I'm holding a Griffin and draw a Meddling Mage and win in short order.
Rnd 4: Reanimator (2-0).
Against a good buddy who's been playing Reanimator for a long time. I end up drawing all 4 Abrupt Decays game 1 and am cursing myself but they actually end up winning me the game as I first get to decay an Animate Dead and then get to block Griselbrand with a birds of paradise and decay it before dmg and just get there. Game 2 is carnage. I resolve a Deathrite turn 2 as my opponent fiddles around with cantrips. He unmasks me and sees: 2x Force of Will, Misdirection, Flusterstorm, Baleful Strix, land. He promptly scoops.
Rnd 5: Omnitell (0-2).
I lose game 1 super tightly. I have lethal next turn, he has 3 cards in his graveyard, 4 untapped mana. I have 3 griffins, food chain and a deathrite. I have just attacked him dropping him to 9. I exile griffins 2nd main phase and casts one. He stops me and thinks. Eventually he forces the 3rd griffin. I get quite perplexed and am looking at the board thinking things over. Sadly I don't realize what's going on until RIGHT after I say okay. I look at his yard and as he puts Force there he has exactsies for Dig Through Time. I could have exiled a card with Deathrite in response, obviously. He does indeed Dig. Untaps. Cantrips into cantrip into cantrip into show and tell. I have nothing and he has omniscience and then emrakul... sad panda. Keep a questionable 1 lander for game 2. Has force and flusterstorm but no cantrip or mana dork. It ends up biting me as I don't get to develop my board at all and eventually he gets me with a combination of thoughtseize and countermagic himself to go off protected.
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I haven't tried it out yet, but will probably do so sometime. I was just curious if you had any problems drawing Emrakul without Food Chain and having an uncastable card. I do like your Empath -> Tombstalker tech though for when you don't have Food Chain active.
It's actually pretty funny to me how resilient Griffins are to a lot of Legacy decks right now. I just think of it as a 4 mana Delver that doesn't die to Abrupt Decay, Disfigure and is hilarious vs StP.
I gave Jesper's list a spin this weekend and went 5-0-1 with it in one of our local Legacy tournaments and chopped in the T4.
I made 1 tweak to the maindeck, swapping the Tombstalker for a Necropolis Fiend (because I think Fiend is generally superior) and played the following sideboard:
1 Dimir Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vendilion Clique
In my continuing quest to shore up the Burn / Storm matchup, it was suggested to me to try Leyline of Sanctity out. I think it's potentially very powerful in theory because unlike other decks that don't have a combo kill, we just want to stall long enough to combo out. I inherently dislike Leylines because I think they're a trap (make you keep bad hand with them or you keep hands without them and draw them later) but I can't deny their effectiveness when you do open with one.
My matchups:
Round 1 vs UW Stoneblade: Shardless Agent + Strixes provide card advantage + pressure and I eventually combo out both games. (1-0)
Round 2 vs UG Cloudpost: I think this matchup is pretty favorable to us. We're the faster combo deck + we're more disruptive. What's not to love? Game 1 he SnT, which I let resolve because I have Emrakul in my hand. Game 2 we both durdle and I combo out and kill him. (2-0)
Round 3 vs UWR Delver: Game 1 he goes T1 Delver, which almost goes the distance, but a Shardless -> Sylvan Library allows me to find enough fliers to stop the Delver (even though I couldn't find an Abrupt Decay for the life of me). Game 2 he just doesn't have any pressure early on, which gives me plenty of time to grind him out. (3-0)
Round 4 vs Dark Maverick: Game 1: I grind him out with dudes and kill all his guys. Game 2, I mull to 5 and die with double Brainstorm in my hand when I can't find an answer to a Spirt of the Labyrinth. Game 3 he keeps a 1 lander and doesn't hit more lands while I grind him out.
Round 5: ID.
T8 vs UW Stoneblade (my R1 opponent): Game 1: We grind until he exhausts the cards in his hand and I combo out. Game 2: He gets like a 4 for 1 on me with Supreme Verdict (haven't seen that card in a long time!) and while I almost recover, Emrakul gets stuck in my hand and Jace grinds me out. Game 3: I grind him out then combo kill him.
So a few thoughts on Jesper's list vs the list I played:
- Shardless Agent + Baleful Strix in the same deck really makes for some insane card advantage. Sometimes you just Shardless into a Brainstorm but other times, you just get some nutty cascades (we all know this). Is this better than playing Vendilion Cliques though? I'm still not 100% certain. I think the Agents probably make you better vs the Delver / midrange decks while the Cliques are better vs combo and Miracles as well as being able to strip Abrupt Decays out of your opponents' hands. It did feel great playing spells for a few turns and having a full grip of cards though.
- Genesis Hydra vs Fierce Empath: Empath seemed just mediocre to me. I never really got to take advantage of Empath + Necropolis Fiend and there were some games where I'd have Empath in my hand with a bunch of mana on the board and just wish I could cast a big Hydra. However, if you want to Shardless, you can't really run Hydra.
- The 4th Mishollow Griffin: I definitely missed having the 4th Misthollow Griffin. There were times where I would draw Manipulate Fate + a Misthollow Griffin and having the 4th one would've made my Manipulate Fates just that much better, not to mention the times I had Food Chain but no Griffin. I think 4 is correct to maximize our chances of getting Griffin + Food Chain together (not to mention making our FoWs better).
- Ponder vs Dig Through Time: Ponders were great early on, but mid/late games, I missed DTT to reset my dead Griffins + dig deep for what I needed. Given that both lists only play 2 of their respective cards, I think the odds of seeing them early are much lower. I do think Ponder makes the tempo deck matchups even better though as it allows us to dig for land/answers early on.
- Golgari Charm: I did really miss the second Golgari Charm in my board, especially against the TNN decks. I'll have to see what I can cut to get back up to 2 in the board.
As always, I'd like to hear people's thoughts and opinions!
New toy, probably better than Hydra.
While cute, if you're comboing Hydra is also a "Demonic Tutor' and there are other uses for Hydra that are invaluable in my opinion through testing.
New toy, probably better than Hydra.
For example, brainstorming a FC to the top of your deck and Hydra'ing for 5 to get an uncounterable FC is quite strong. Also a lot of times I'll have mana dorks + FC out but no Griffin so I'll Hydra for 10+ (usually finding Griffin) and just beat them down with a 10/10.
Sidisi seems better as topdeck when you're missing a lot of pieces, but even then 5 mana is a lot. I think she is competing for the Tasigur slot as a one-of rather than Hydra, and my gut tells me Tas works better, but I will be testing both.
I played a list similar to Jedi Goyf's this weekend and went 2-1 (very small tourney).
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Misdirection
2 Ponder
4 Food Chain
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Round 1: 2-0 vs Enchantress
g1 I FoW'd her presence, then combo'd off t4.
g2 I had another nut draw hand with t4 kill, but she had t2 Suppression Field which messed up my 4 fetchland hand -- we went draw-go for about 10 turns until I found a 2nd land to EOT decay her Field, crack my fetches, and kill her on my turn.
Round 2: 2-0 vs High Tide
g1 He sculpted, I t3 Cliqued him and took High Tide, then FoW'd Merchant Scroll. A few turns later I combo'd off.
g2 He played t1 Top, I FoW'd, he FoW back, I Misdirected, and then we started rebuilding. I had a sole DRS out that did probably 14 dmg throughout the next few turns. I then started casting Griffins and got there before he had time to rebuild, double Forcing a High Tide along the way.
Round 3: 1-2 vs Deathblade
g1 He cast a lot of cantrips and Jace brainstorms but couldn't find anything relevant before I Clique'd him (taking FoW) into a combo kill.
g2 He cantriped while I did the same, before casting a Tasigur as bait for his FoW. I had a Food Chain in hand that I could've cast but was waiting for a Griffin to show up -- this let him Thoughtseize me to get rid of it (how do you guys feel about this play? He had shown Council's Judgement and I was also fearing Abrupt Decay). He cast a Jace and started BStorming with a TNN out. I used the opportunity of him being tapped out to cast Golgari Charm -- this was a misplay as I forgot I had exiled Griffin's from a FoW and should've cast that to pressure Jace. I then got behind as he went double SFM getting Jitte+Skull and -1 Jace to Unsummon Griffin. I misplayed again by not decaying Jitte on his turn letting him pump his SFM to a 4/5 putting me to 3 before unsummoning my Griffin again. Jace was at 1 and I drew Strix, casting it and Griffin again -- Griff got FoW'd and Strix was -1'd leaving me dead to the Bskull attack.
I didn't really like the guy I was playing against (it's usually a very casual tournament and he was taking multiple minutes deciding his play/turns as if huge cash was on the line while being silent and disparaging in comments (stuff like, oh you only won because I drew nothing)) so I conceded g3 and hung out with the other guys there.
One thing I didn't like about the other lists was the lack of basics, and I have to say I really enjoyed having 4 basics. I didn't get mana screwed once and though it didn't matter vs the decks I played it felt good to have the ability to cast every card in the deck (and activate Tasigur) through Wastelands. My only concern was Genesis Hydra, but in testing the times I'd cast him the double G didn't matter b/c I had a lot of mana anyway or I was comboing.
I think Tasigur works really well in the deck -- though I never got to activate the ability, his body protects you before you can combo, and he's a good mid-sized threat that people will often take w/ discard, or FoW or similar, protecting your combo pieces. His Delve might interfere with the more "important" delve of DTT, but I think the two can coexist. His ramp via FC doesn't seem super valuable, but I can imagine circumstances with FC where getting a TST out or a huge Hydra into TST or similar would be game changers.
I didn't cast a single Dig Through Time so I can't comment on how good it is in the deck. I like the card, and want it to be good, but worry about the deck's ability to fill the graveyard considering we play to the board or the exile zone and are playing 4 DRS. In the games I played they were solely FoW fodder, which at the least means they weren't just dead in my hand.
Anyways, it's a fun deck with a lot of unique plays/lines and I'm looking forward to continuing to play it.
Last edited by EunB; 03-02-2015 at 07:49 PM.
Hey everyone! I have most of Food Chain assembled, but I was hoping to get some feedback on the 60 before testing it at the LGS. It looks like a fun deck to play. I'm looking forward to trying it out! Thanks a lot guys!
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Baleful Strix
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Fierce Empath
4x Misthollow Griffin
1x Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Food Chain
3x Manipulate Fate
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Dig Through Time
1x Sylvan Library
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest
Looks pretty standard -- what advice are you looking for? I'd suggest going back and reading through the past few pages of this thread. Some lists are moving away from Emrakul / Fierce Empath and toward Genesis Hydra / Tidespout Tyrant but both versions have been putting up solid results.
I have been following the thread actually, I've also read multiple primers and poured over decklists. I included the Fierce Empaths because I think they'll synergize a little better with Tasigur than Genesis Hydra. What I'm really worried about is the fact that my disruption package is only 6 spells, 4 Force of Will and 2 Vendilion Clique. Is that enough, or should I look into working additional spells into the build? Misdirection or Thoughtseize would be the next step, I think.
It may seem like a strange concern, but my local metagame is so riddled with permission and hand-attack that I have to run 13 disruption spells in my Reanimator deck.
I'd say a singleton Misdirection is a good place to be with this deck seeing as the Griffins make so juicy pitchers upping the value of the card. I know Jedi was even running 2 at one point but that was in the old Cruise-meta where there was a lot more burn.
I've personally been happy with it as a singleton for a long time.
I've run 3 thoughtseize in the main a few times and have not liked it enough to stick with it. It obviously makes our combo matchup somewhat better but I can't see what I'm removing to fit them in that isn't weakening us against other strategies. You could argue that hand disruption also works nicely with our grindy plan, but I find it much better in that regard to play more cards that affect the board. Picking our fight on the board means that removal gets the nod over discard in my opinion. Also, the boost against Combo isn't enough to make a significant enough of a difference.
What this means is that we are underdogs against most combo strategies in game one. There are two reasons why I don't think it's worth it to try and significantly change this (and which has actually also led me to cut out Vendilion Cliques altogether). The first is, that our combo is much slower than theirs and as such we can't very well hope to race them that way. The other is that we simply don't have the means to field a relevant enough of a clock. Those two factors are intrinsically imbedded in the foundation of our deck and I can't see how we are to mitigate either.
To compensate for this I've decided to run multifaceted hate out of the board and rely on a combination of Meddling Mages, Thoughtseizes, Flusterstorms and graveyard hate to up my percentages. I'm quite pleased with how it's been playing out for me.
You mention that there's a lot of permission in your meta. Combo decks aside I don't think you should be worrying too much about getting stuff countered. Your removal is uncounterable (Abrupt Decay) and they can't be wasting all of their counterspells on all of your bit-parts such as deathrite shamans and baleful strix'. Them countering a Food Chain doesn't even have to that big of a deal for you as long as you can prolong the game to the point in which you can start to cast Griffins. After that you will put their removal and permission under immense pressure as your delve spells and deathrites will mean you can reccur the griffins. Manipulate Fate is often the crux here and the card over which to pick a fight.
Last edited by nevilshute; 03-04-2015 at 07:57 AM.
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Wouldn't be too hasty here. It's nice that it can tutor up a Food Chain or a piece of removal. It's pretty harsh that is going to cost os CMC5 no matter what. It's body is more relevant than a non-food chained hydra, but the fact that the hydra cheats stuff into play is huge. I don't know, not ruling it out or anything, but it doesn't seem like where we want to be at. The sacrifice-to-tutor is a bit clunky too.
New toy, probably better than Hydra.
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Hi Esper3k, if you'd like to play Shardless Agent but you feel Fierce Empath is underwhelming you can try Soul of the Harvest.
It has already been spoken of especially compared to genesis hydra:
- with food chain and griffin you draw your deck until you get tyrant/emrakul/whatever then win, so it's the same as hydra
- with food chain but no griffin you can chain creatures into others until you hit a griffin or manipulate fate then win from there. Maybe if you have enough creatures in play hydra is sligthly better because you can make it big enough to get a griffin, but it's not a given
- without food chain Soul can generate enough card advantage to dominate the board until you win or hit the combo, while hydra (assuming a similar CC, so X = 4) can at most give you a permanent, though it would be not countered (but can be stiffled). I think in this scenario soul is better because it gives an incremental advantage
- as a bonus, Soul has a reasonable body and trample which can be relevant in some fringe situations (like when you need to kill a planeswalker but opponet has chumpblockers). Hydra, however, gives you the line to brainstorm food chain on top of your library in order to put into play without giving opponent the possibility to counter it
- However, if you want to play shardless agent Hydra is a nonbo, so in this version of the deck Soul is definitely better :)
Let me know if you'll test it and how do you'll like it: I'm not playing this deck at the moment but I still follw the thread because it's a deck I always loved, especially with shardless.
Ignorance is strength
Interesting - thanks for the suggestion!
One thing I've really liked about Hydra is that it's been great in the Miracles matchup. Since we usually have plenty of time and if you cast a Hydra with X = 5, there's nothing in their deck that can CB it (plus you get that uncounterable triggered ability).
It's a tough decision for me right now if I like the card advantage of Shardless Agent more or if I like the disruption of Vendilion Clique more.
No prob, I'm happy to help :)
Regarding miracle: isn't it already a positive matchup? They play only 3~5 CC3 cards and only 2~3 CC4 cards, so our griffins, food chains, vendilions and agents are almost safe. Moreover we play decay for their counterbalances and griffin owns stp like a boss.
Do you found troubles with the matchup?
EDIT: I used to play a version with shardless AND vendilion, but without the fullset of strix. It's doable ;)
Ignorance is strength
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