Miracle Control

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

MM is, however, much better vs SnT with Boseiju than Clique is, often. If you are 7 lands vs SnT, you likely already won anyhow. Also, as mentioned - Going long against a deck with 20 cantrips is usually not that good..

And the Reason for that claim is what? You stil can play clique in Response to their SNT and put their Combo piece back ontop of their libary. Also you don´t have to have 7 lands. You only need 3 plus Karakas. Because you cast the clique in their turn attack with her in your turn and than Bounce her to get the other card. Btw against the renanimator match you also have counters and they don´t have any if they let the clique trhough so cliuqe the one counter the other seems pretty good.

[useL]

Hello,



And the Reason for that claim is what? You stil can play clique in Response to their SNT and put their Combo piece back ontop of their libary. Also you don´t have to have 7 lands. You only need 3 plus Karakas. Because you cast the clique in their turn attack with her in your turn and than Bounce her to get the other card. Btw against the renanimator match you also have counters and they don´t have any if they let the clique trhough so cliuqe the one counter the other seems pretty good.

It sounds like you and I dont live in the same reality. What if you dont have more than 1 turn with clique and you are on 3 lands, not 7? What if you dont find your oneoff Karakas in the few turns before your opponent casts his business? What if your 4 fow and 1-2 counterspells arent to be found?

I'm out if this discussion, no wonder people in this thread net deck. I'll take a break from this place.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

UseL
It sounds like you and I dont live in the same reality.

That is quiet possible cause everyone has an individual one.

What if you dont have more than 1 turn with clique and you are on 3 lands, not 7?

I play the Cliuqe at his drawstep put away 1 of the outs and counter the other and in the next turn attack than bounce the clique to lay her again. If it happen that this don´t work is lose. Thing is Meddling Mage would have the same problem if they have 2 different soluions like in the renaimator example.

What if you dont find your oneoff Karakas in the few turns before your opponent casts his business?

Actually I play 2 Karakas. But let me return the question what do you do if you don´t find the Mage before they find their business?
Which fiew turns? You don´t cast anything into a control deck without protection so maybe if I don´t find Karakas I strip them of their protection
spells and counter their buisness Spells.

What if your 4 fow and 1-2 counterspells arent to be found?

I only need 1 counter and maybe 1 Reb as backup. The chances say to draw 1 counter in a deck with 4 Brainstorms,4 Tops and 0 to 4 Ponder it is not a problem.
Btw what do you do if they draw into a A. Decay and kill your Mage?

The thing is we a talking about different approaches. I talk about the general usefullness of the cards in the context of the deck and you talk about single siuations which could appear but don´t have too.

[TheArchitect]

I play the Cliuqe at his drawstep put away 1 of the outs and counter the other and in the next turn attack than bounce the clique to lay her again. If it happen that this don´t work is lose. Thing is Meddling Mage would have the same problem if they have 2 different soluions like in the renaimator example.

I did not understand you after the first sentence, but playing clique during the draw step is one of the best ways to punt a game to combo. Basically, the only time this is ever acceptable is when clique is your only card, and/or your opponent is in topdeck mode.

Getting your mage removed is no worse than getting your CB removed. I do not see why you would bring that up.

Again I personally run Cliques, not meddling mages. However MM are fine choice if you need specific combo hate (clique has more general applications). And I would never NOT run clique in miracles. The card is too good. The two cards play very different roles and are not mutually exclusive; just as an example a sideboard could look something like this:

(2-3 Cliques maindeck)
2 Mages
2 Containment priest
1 Relic
2 Flusterstorm
3 Blast
1 EE
1 Disenchant
1 Verdict
1 Entreat
1 Pyroclasm


To come back to the original issue: omnitell, another option that I have played a few times and had success with is playing karakas in the ponder version. Like every player should do, you need adapt your 75 to your meta. My meta recently has had lots of Tasigers, Teegs, thalias and reanimtor so tweeked things around:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post866678

I know Philip hates Karakas, but I find it to be a very useful card, even when I do not see clique. The matchups it's good against (clique mirrors, thalias, griselbrand decks) its broken against. When it's bad, it's a plains that gets wastelanded. If that's a cost you are willing to pay, it's still a fine card to run.

[mike1987]

What is the general strategy against painter's stone? With their 6-8 reb effects, it is going to be hard to land counterbalance or Jace. I always find myself on the back foot, having to plow their painter/revokers whilst getting disrupted by their grindstone.

[Abantau]

Narset planswalker is wow!

[Tokugawa]

Narset planswalker is wow!

Both + and - loyalty abilities could make CA. Maybe playable as...1-of.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

the problem is the deck Space. He is not as good as Jayce and we don´t play 4 Jayce. Also he is not as good as our other one ofs like Jugdement or Dig.
So as long as I can´t find I way to include 1 more copy of these cards I don´t think this card will be played in the deck.

[Poron]

not as good as Jace here. It can help against Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle

[Moa]

not as good as Jace here. It can help against Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle

That just isn't a good reason to play a card though. Playing sub-optimal cards because they are less likely to get turned off is not a winning proposition.

[Poron]

it is if they play EE for Angels and Pithing Needle on Jace

[wonderPreaux]

it is if they play EE for Angels and Pithing Needle on Jace

Why not just dig for Council's Judgment or Wear/Tear. If you carry many efficient answers to cards, and some of the best filtering to find cards, why muck about with expensive and clunky answers to corner-cases?

[TheArchitect]

it is if they play EE for Angels and Pithing Needle on Jace

No it isn't. Unless a deck has 4 Jaces and still wants more planeswalkers, there is no reason to run Narset in legacy. Lets move on.

[Poron]

you're right. I was playing devil's advocate

[YamiJoey]

Give this hardcast Terminus Rebound. #Value

[ylekaikyle]

It does give you another 4 cost card for siege rhino. 4 mana cost spells aren't friends of miracles imo

[insnebob1889]

So I've been playing miracles for about a month. I usually play against goblins [card]vexing shusher[/card], merfolk, reanimator, and a weird NO Show.. natural order and show and tell. This is my list so far:
Creatures (5)
3 Vendilion Clique
2 venser, Shaper Savant

Spells (34)
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus

Lands (21)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard (11)
2 staticaster
2 supreme verdict
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

My phone is giving me a headache, and I'm not sure if it screwed anything up.
Any advise appreciated.

[twndomn]

So I've been playing miracles for about a month. I usually play against goblins [card]vexing shusher[/card], merfolk, reanimator, and a weird NO Show.. natural order and .

Sincere there're lots of Vial decks like goblin and merfolk, doesn't it make more sense to run 3 Snapcasters so you can flashback swords? 21 lands with 2 Karakas doesn't make much sense.

[Bosque]

Sincere there're lots of Vial decks like goblin and merfolk, doesn't it make more sense to run 3 Snapcasters so you can flashback swords? 21 lands with 2 Karakas doesn't make much sense.

I agree. If your meta is largely fair vial decks, running Clique and Venser I'm not sure is the best place you can be. I'd run Snapcasters and more removal and/or board wipes (Council's Judgement, Supreme Verdict) if I were you.

[Quasim0ff]

Also, I'd highly suggest getting Arid Mesa's, simply for the ability to fetch basic plains more easily.