shit like jund or maverickOriginally Posted by Fallacy
Can you expand on that more, as I haven't had a lot of experience with Confidant in a diverse meta? Is this assessment correct:
Side out against: RUG, Jund, Elves, Maverick, and Shardless, ?
Keep in against: Miracles, D&T, Storm, UW Stoneblade, Esper Deathblade, Sneak & Show, Infect, ?
What about UWR Delver, mirror, and any notable others? Appreciate the feedback!
Well, the main thrust here is that you board out Confidant in the instances where your life total is not at liberty to be used as a resource.
That is rather abstract though, so more simply it can be stated as: board out Confidant where you are very likely to need to play a damage race and Confidant is unlikely to win that race for you.
In the case of Miracles, their clock is so slow that Confidant's cards are worth the life payed for them. Versus Combo decks, your life total is often not very relevant, since you are usually dead or not. You can't really "race" Storm, although sometimes the damage done can increase their clock, so use Confidant with caution. Versus decks like Omni-Tell or Show and Tell, again, you are usually either dead or not, so leveraging you life to try to find pressure/disruption is key. Blade decks are often set up for a grindy, midrange types of games, so Confidant can be good there too, since their clocks are slow but must be answered, the more cards you see, the better able you'll be to keep them off the offensive.
Versus anything Red based, it is probably best to take Confidant out. Too often can 6 life mean you are just dead.
I don't think I would side Confidant out versus Maverick or Death and Taxes though, but I may be wrong. I feel like we are favored in a damage race with them post board, because they really are not aggro or tempo decks at all, really creature-based control decks. Not only that, but Swords to Plowshares gives you a better ability to leverage a life-to-cards trade in your favor.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I'm actually very curious as to what Bob sided out Bob against. Because it's one thing to make the conscious choice to not run Dark Confidant, but once he's in the deck, there are usually very few reasons to move him out of the main.
I agree. Even against Burn, drawing extra cards means more Goyfs to block, more removal for Eidolons, more counters for PoP. I can see the "life race" logic but... well, it's frigging Bob.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I think that Bob is debatable against Burn, and a lot of it is going to come down to playstyle/personal preference rather than 'right' or 'wrong'.
Personally, I can see why (especially if you're on the Stifle build) you'd want to keep him in, but I think he suffers from the same problems against Burn that Thoughtseize does. Just like Thoughtseize offers the intuitively appealing ability to trade 2 life for 3 by take bolt (or better if you snag Price, Fireblast, Eidolon, etc.), Burn rarely needs every point of available damage to kill you and you generally don't want to help them out at all. Just like Thoughtseize is really a 1-for-1/3 a lot of the time against Burn, the card economy on Bob is questionable. Even if you flip something like Hymn and that Hymn hits 2 Bolts/Chains/Spikes you're really only up 4 life and that's a pretty optimistic scenario.
Correction: You're also up a Goblin Piker.
And that's the part that matters a lot. Yes, Thoughtseize is an awful card against Burn. No, losing 2 life does not help Thoughtseize's case in the slightest. However, even Duress is only a consolation-prize sideboard card against Burn. Reason being is that they don't end the game. Inevitability is always on Burn's side, and you need a way to present a clock and close out the game. If we had Magus of the Thoughtseize, I would run that card 24 hours a day against Burn because it would be both presenting a clock and stalling for time. Dark Confidant attacks. It blocks. It flips cards that can be used to keep you alive.
Dark Confidant is definitely not the best card against Burn. But in terms of looking at things to get rid of, crap like Thoughtseize definitely gets moved first. And considering how little is available in most sideboards to combat Burn and how much there is that needs to be ditched, Dark Confidant usually ends up staying right where it is.
While I think you're overstating how relevant a 2/1 body is, I get what you're saying. My boarding against Burn is usually -2 Liliana, -1 Hymn, -1 Bob, +2 Disfigure, +2 Pierce/Fluster. And I don't mind losing the 14th threat nearly as much as I mind losing the Lilianas. We already have Goyf and Delver to pressure them, and they're usually spending the removal they have on Deathrite. I don't even run out the 1-of Bob I keep very often because he's a lower impact threat than Goyf or Delver.
I played shitty BUG delver again last night:
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Tasigur
2 TNN
1 Dreadnought
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Decay
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dimir Charm
8 blue fetches
4 Wasteland
4 Usea
3 Trop
2 Duress
1 Perish
1 Dread of Night
1 Spell Snare
1 Chill
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
7 other cards I don't remember. Sorry I have a baby and I'm at work, i'm super foggy from late night Legacy and don't have .
Went 2-2:
Rd 1 DnT 2-0, turns out they can't beat double TNN and Dreadnought game 1 with only 3 Moms and a Batterskull. Game 2 he led on plains-go, I had a DRS, he had a Horizon Canopy for his second land drop, I had a wasteland, thanks for coming.
Rd 2 UW Miracles 2-1. Only thing notable from the games was when I had Library out, Taz in play and on top of my deck. Played a fetch and passed so that I would bluff not wanting to shuffle my top card. At end of his turn I fetched, he plowed Taz with fetch on the stack, I activated Taz and dumped the other copy and the Delver into my GY of Brainstorm, Stifle, fetchland. He gave me Brainstorm. I ended up crafting a ridiculous hand off of Library and Brainstorm that turn and winning. Not sure why he didn't give me Stifle...
Rd 3 UWr miracles 0-2. This does matter as I had delvers pyroblasted in both games and he ended game 1 at 1 life and game 2 at 3 life. In game 2 I drew six cards off of Library, thanks to STP and zero pressure from his side. For some reason I left Dreadnought in and my last-gasp effort was a StifleNought when his hand was empty and he only had a top. He found a counterspell for Stifle and then a big entreat. I guess if I didn't have a library I would've had two turns to win but it's still insane to draw six extra cards in a game. In fact I could've just had stifle in my hand if i didn't tempt myself with the bug guy. ha.
Rd 4 was enchantress, I have played the same Enchantress guy in the last round of my last five events spread over three different decks (Nic Fit, Junk, and this) and I have only beaten him once. This one was a 1-2 loss. I am putting back to nature in my sideboard.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that Tas and Library are awesome.
Played in a 23 person local on Saturday in Portland and ended up taking down. I miss the power of hymn/lily/tasigur, but hate the clunky draws. I much prefer the tempo build of is deck to have a strong matchup against combo, our SB options really let us clear up other matchups. I played a version simaler to the Jim Davis list, but opted for 19 lands to not get mana screwed. Overall I think the deck is very well situated.
The SB is based on my meta, there are about 50 regulars about half of which will show up on a Saturday night. There are at least 7-10 D&T players. There are also 5-10 Storm players (some on Omni) and white and red prison strategies. So I new I wanted spell pierce, and really liked hymn at 2 copies. I wish i had one more TNN in the board, he fixes board state problems better than any other card in my 75, and punches he damage threw any wall. 2 bobs felt right, when I was playing 3 I ran into them a little to much. My removal was (3ad/2disfig) this may change to (4ad/1mc). My SB is creature removal heavy, I almost cut the deluge for a golgari charm, but on 19 lands win stifle to protect them, I was confidant it would be castable.
List:
19 Lands:
4usea/2trop/1bayou
4delta/2misty/2verdant
15 Creatures:
4drs/4delver/4tarmo
2bob/1tnn
26 Spells:
4bs/4ponder/
3ad/3stifle/3fow/3daze/
2disfig/2pierce/2hymn
SB:
2 dread of night
2 marsh casualties
2 grafdiggers
1 murderous cut
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 fow
1 vendilion
2 flusterstorm
Round 1: D&T 2-0
G1 - I establish control with delver beats and drs. I get a lot of removal and take out creatures and his jitte. He finds a plow and vials in crusader. He beats my face in crusader and revoker, dropping me to 4 life. I get TNN off the top, then disfigure. Drs activations then one strike with TNN and it's game.
G2. He plays t1 vial. I play t1 DRS. He ticks up and passes turn. I play t2 dread of night and delver, my hand is flush with removal and counter magic. He drops revoker on drs, and gets a mirran out, I take 2dmg miran beats twice until I let him overextend and marsh casualties his board.
Round 2: Elves 2-1
G1 I get a fast 2 delver clock going, he has half the combo online. I counter his visionary and swing in getting him to 5. He combos out with NO killing my soul.
G2 I have a lot of removal to bring and can cut the daze/stifle and other dead cards. I get a fast start abusing daze, t2 or t3 I hymn him and get cradle and NO. He isn't able to recover in time.
G3 he mulls to 5. However my hand is 2x fow blue cards but no removal. I can't remember what he plays t1, but I fow it. I drop a creature. He casts a symbiotic and and I fow it. I get some beats in. He drops and creature and the next turn goes off with NO. I immediately regret fow on my choices. He gets Ruric Thar, and I immediately feel the game slipping. It feels pretty rough to lose to his mull to 5. A viewer jokes, wow would be rough to cast toxic on that! And follows up sayin do u have murderous cut. Which is funny because my next topdeck is murderous cut. I take 6 and kill the legendary. I keep beating with tarmo, but he keeps bouncing his dryad, eventually it becomes a drs battle. He is able to double drs shenanigans to stabilize. I soon get a delver and grave is empty, very close game.
Round 3: Burn 2-1
G1 I feel pretty confidant since my list has more disruption than the older lists I have played. The game goes as planned, I drop drs and delver he burns drs and takes the hits from delver. I fow and pierce his 2 price of prog. He drops eidolon, I take a few hits, and were both under 5 life, he gets fire last for the kill.
G2 I get drs out and he searing blazes it. I drop another drs and he blazes it again. Next I drop tarmo, and next turn hymn him which does work. After this I'm stuck with 2 decay and disfigure in hand. But tarmo beats get me there.
G3 he plays guide, I have no removal so I force it. I play delver, he suspends a rift, and bolts me. I play tarmo, he then double burns it. I play another tarmo, and he searing blazes, and tries to bolt I counter the bolt. And ride tarmo to victory.
Round 4: Shardless Bug -ID- 2-0
We split however there is another 3-0 out paired down. We decide placing 1/2 or 2/3 is fine and decide to ID. We okay it out. I was hoping the stifles would shine in this matchup, but just find creatures and removal. Decay does work on his lily and tarmo. Delvers, fly above his agents. Can't remember the exact plays but it feels like that.
G2 we both drop creatures and remove each other's. We both cast tarmos, he decays mine. I take care of his. Eventually the board clogs up, he has agent and tarmo, and I have drs and tarmo. We both try use disfigure shenanigans to handle the other tarmo. And it feels like more tarmos keep getting cast. Eventually TNN drops and his walls of creatures can't handle drs activations and TNN swinging in.
I think i would only take it out against certain decks. Rug, jund, shardless, maverick, mirror and bring in the big tombstalker - reason for that is 1. rug's pyroclasm, jund's pyroclasm, and red bolts and shit, mirrors inability to remove a fatty tombstalker
everything else i rather have bob in.
Unless you're suggesting that you have Tombstalker in your sideboard, the question isn't "when is Tombstalker better?". We already know the answer to that.
Wasn't that the discussion when they were talking about bringing stalker from the board.
I was wondering in general when do you side Bob out (assuming Tombstalker is not in SB). What MU's is he worth the card advantage for possible life loss postboard, that was my question. Seems the consensus is any white fair deck (DnT, UWR, UW blade, esper death blade, maverick), combo, and Miracles.
The only matchups I would consider siding Bob out are decks that pressure your life total very quickly. The ones that come to mind are Burn, UR Delver, and Zoo. Otherwise I would just leave him in.
Bob still blocks things that will kill you otherwise and he removes his potential life loss in that situation. I've had Burn sit back and not attack with a Goblin Guide when I had Bob on the board because they wanted the potential damage off of Bob. Unless you have creatures in your SB or very effective instant speed removal Bob has to stay in against Burn.
And keep in mind that the drastic life loss due to Dark Confidant is a whopping 1.216 per flip in Bob's mainboard.
How does Team SB against Lands? I play the Hymn build, and here is my SB:
3 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
1 GD Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn
1 Sylvan Library
1 Lily
1 Clique
1 FoW
I was thinking that bringing in 1 Cage, 1 Extraction, 2 Charm, 1 Needle, 1 Cage would be good, but not sure what to take out. Do I keep some counters in, or, do I remove counters and go heavy on discard?
what does cage do in this mu? discard is not that efficient against loam engine.
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
Cage doesn't do anything. You just gotta surgical their asses and hope your drs is able to exile a loam.
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