Right now what I'm thinking is...
1) You have to have some way to make use of its instant speed. Yes, being an instant is inherently more useful than being a sorcery, but if you end your turn with three cards in hand and four mana open, it's pretty telling what you're planning on doing. Punishing Maverick? Flash creatures? Some way to make its instant status feel natural.
2) It's mana heavy. I have an unorthodox idea that I'm going to keep to myself for now just so that the thread doesn't get cluttered by people spouting bullshittery.
Originally Posted by sdematt
Maybe this card doesn't have universal applicability in every MU, but I think it addresses a major problem Maverick has against Miracles. Normally we have to walk that awkward line between committing too much and getting blown out by a terminus OR sandbagging a bunch of dudes and just having them all get plowed one at a time until they slap us with entreat or Jace. Now we have the option to EoT this, and even if a terminus wipes our board we're trading one for one. This also applies to shardless, we can now afford to force their toxic deluge without losing too much.
Just my 2 cents..
Is the card good? Damn right, it is! Is it better than GSZ? Maybe, maybe not.
Do you need to tutor your 1-of and 2-of cards on the fly? (Eg: scryb, scooze, qasali, teeg, etc.) if your answer is yes or sometimes, then GSZ is better. If your answer is never, then cc is better.
If your deck is like zoo: 4-of every fatty, then CC is better.
Vs miracles: GSZ has the flexibility to dodge cb lock.
Vs combo: Turn 2 teeg off a GSZ is simply better.
Looking at longterm.. Did you see the new Liliana in mtg origins expansion? How'd you feel about fetching a planeswalker? :)
How I am kind of viewing CC (and if anyone disagrees or thinks different then I am keen to hear, because I feel like I can always learn from others and thats how I can improve) is that mid-late game instead of drawing 1 creature off the top off our deck, why not draw what can give us 2 creatures at instant speed?
That's why I think we could run it as a 1 of because T1-T3 we want to be setting up our board, casting GSZ to tutor whichever creature we're looking for, but then CC could be a nice top deck/late game gas that lets us keep up with the pace of games.
IMO it serves a totally different purpose then GSZ. When I draw GSZ it's like drawing any green creature in my deck and I want to get whatever will be the biggest pain in the butt and most disruptive for the other person.
This silver bullet/tool box function is key to Maverick and is why this deck can have success (I realize that this is all obvious stuff, and things we already know).
However I don't think having GSZ and the toolbox mechanic makes us turn down such raw card advantage that I feel like already fits our shell. If I had the choice I rather drop 2 creatures off the top of my deck then 1.
In my own deck I have a flew flex spots and already have more than enough 3 cmc or below creatures to make it an easy inclusion.
Some people have made really good points against the card and we will probably just have to wait and see.
What you're describing is basically why we run Sylvan Library. It lets you keep pace with the attrition decks and the cantrip decks.
Collected Company needs to win when you cast it. It needs to push you so far ahead, or lock the opponent out so strongly, that resolving it is a do-or-die moment. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to cast a 4 cmc instant in this format. We don't play the kind of creatures that allow for Collected Company to combo off or win out of nowhere. BEST case scenario is make 2 Knights, untap, double Wasteland. That's strong, but it's not an auto-win, and it's also not an especially likely draw. What happens when the best you get is a Mom and a DRS?
The silver bullet nature of our deck already gives us some pretty sketchy opening 7s. I really don't want one more card clogging up my opening hand. I hope someone tries it, but I'm going to take a wait and see approach. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.
Isn't it? A single Knight of the Reliquary untapping is the beginning of the end more often than not. I can't imagine the damage that two off the top could do.
Or Knight and Stoneforge Mystic. Or Knight and Deathrite Shaman. Or Stoneforge and Deathrite. Hell, I mentioned earlier that snagging even a Mother of Runes and Deathrite Shaman wouldn't be too bad of a play, and I stand by that.
You are right. Card is straight-up insane. It's a double GSZ, a small Glimpse, and a Dig Through Time all in one.
I mean, people are valid in saying that it's 4cc. Because, well, it is. But I don't understand why that's so oppressive. It's not like the end goal isn't already to spend four mana digging up a Knight with Green Sun's Zenith. Or spend four mana casting and strapping an Umezawa's Jitte. Or spending five mana casting and strapping a Swords or dropping a Batterskull.
It's a calculated choice of do you want Collected Company to be the trump card in your deck. And so far, for me, I say yes.
Right now I'm working on Punishing Maverick. It changes the dynamics of the deck pretty significantly, so I haven't pinned down anything I'm comfortable with, but it has proven to be nothing but a champ. Anyone who wants to see sample reveals, load up The Cock.de, play a goldfish till you get to four mana, and then just repeatedly press ctrl+w (=6) and ctrl+s. There are moments when you semi-wiff and only hit one creature, so you do have to keep a fairly large creature count, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
From what I've read on here I think most people's gripe is the variance. Because all the swords/batterskull should end the game. Casting the GSZ for knight you know for sure if it resolves you will have a knight on board.
But with CC you have that variance where maybe you only hit one Thalia, or a mom and DRS which although good isn't game ending and is quite a bit for 4 mana.
That said though and maybe I am getting too into perfect x-mas land/or only thinking of upsides and not the bigger picture, but I feel in a late game setting if I am low on cards in hand and I have 4 mana I rather draw the 4cmc spell where I am using all my mana and have the potential to get 2 value creatures instead of just drawing and playing a mom late game for 1 mana.
Not to be snarky at all, but if I were to jam a 4cc green spell alongside GSZ, I might as well go for broke with maindeck Natural Order (assuming I can cast it). I'm thinking I'd prefer cheating Ruric Thar / Progenitus / big stupid thing than an uncertain chance off the top. CC's christmas land is really nice. But you can't think pure-upside. CC will see legacy play. A deck needs to mold around it. It may find a home in Maverick, but no doubt you'd have to shake up lists since it's cramming competing strategies together (never a good thing....look at bant.dec for the past 3 years).
I would actually want it much more in something like Nic-Fit where getting to 4, 5 or even 6 mana is rarely a problem. Toss it in with Veteran Explorer, Baleful Strix, Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare. Even there, the deck structure wants giant monsters to hard cast later on, so finding 3cmc dudes might be tough. It's a very strong card that may just require a new archetype, or a twist no one has seen yet.
Just my two cents, but I think Collected Company could be a great 2-3 of sideboard for a fair number of Legacy match-ups. I'm talking mainly about other creature deck match-ups, e.g., Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, Delver, Shardless BUG, Jund, Mirrors. I say this because these decks are less affected by the Thalias, (save maybe Delver and Shardless), and more disrupted by being overwhelmed with creatures. In these match-ups I would want more spot removal like Paths or Abrupt Decays and access to instant creature advantage to stuff my opponent. The Thalia approach is utilized main deck for combo, control and most decks with blue. But even Miracles, since its a slower match-up, I could see both Thalias and Collected Companies playing a role. This card is definitely worth playtesting to evaluate its potential as a killer sideboard card for many Legacy matches IMHO.
I started from Maverick shell now test deck looks like this:
Noncreature spells(10):
4 Collected Company
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Green Sun's Zenith
//creatures(30):
3 Eternal Witness
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Mentor of the Meek
1 Priest of Urabrask
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Kessig Malcontents
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Village Bell-Ringer
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Deathrite Shaman
//Lands(20):
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
//SB:
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Choke
Few explenations: this deck remind be old MOST construction.
Main CA engine is CC and E.Witness, second CA engine is Mentor of the Meek - its really works very well as Glimpse on the Stick.
Deck contain many syngergies and combos:
Instant kill combo - Kiki - Bell, both can be searched by Imperial Recruiter it kills by combat, but with any mana dork it can easy kill directly via Kessig Malcontent (works fine also as reach finisher, or plainwalker killer, Pries of Urabrask is interesting choose (mostly mana fixer, also nice with equipment).
There are also most GSZ targets - Ooze, Kotr, Pridemages. Deck is also focused on Human Theme (uncounterable, recuiter/witness bring enough CA vs controls).
What is missing (since its still 60 card deck) - I actually moved to sb direct removal - StP, in most games I could cump enough long to get advantage(similar to goblin strategy but you have more silverbullets under GSZ and Recruiter) - sure you can always use equips as removal. Imperial Recruiter is probably one of the most important card in this deck - similar to Goblin Matron.
Deck is very focused on creatures (30) this mean we have very big chance to find 2 creatures in 6 cards. Deck runs only 21 lands (counting 3 cradles and dryad) this mean initial mana are only 17 lands - similar to some RUG lists, this mean its very important to search mana dorks on start, After you cast first CC it will be mostly game.
Configuration of toolboxed creature is very dependent on your meta:
more creatures to use:
Singscourger (works great vs S&T) - I like it more then creature exile effect since its more permanent
Phyrexian Revoker - still thinking to fit it in MB
Goblin Sharpshooter - this creature can be house
if you afraid -1/-1 effects - Mayor of Avabruck
As SB card against tempo decks you can easy use Meekstone, almost all your creatures can easy working under it (maybe without KotR).
Probably this deck could also works with Vials/Wayfarer build. Not sure does it also fit thalia - but with active cradle its mostly easy to cast in one turn CC + stuff searched.
17 actual lands sounds way too greedy. I would definitely up the number of lands while cutting some of the rather "cute" utility.
I have some questions regarding Thoughtseize in the SB and I'm curious how you apporach the different matchups.
I'm testing with Maverick a lot lately but I'm sticking more to permanent hate (for combo, miracles, ...) like more Teegs, Canonists, Containment Priests etc. instead of some Thoughtseize (4 would be the number) because it feels strong to create soft-locks that can be protected (with Mother of Runes). I do know that hate should also be diversified to put pressure on the opponents anti-hate and Thoughtseize is a really powerful card. I just wonder in which matchups do you guys board in the Thoughtseizes and how your general gameplan is with Thoughtseize in mind.
At the moment I'm playing a Abzan stock list, 4 Deathrite Shamans, 1 Sigarda, 1 SoLaS, 1 SoFaI, 1 Jitte with this SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Abrupt Decay
Also any advice for the matchups vs. the BG-Shell? My last tournament was ok, but forgot that Shardless Bug and Jund are decks and just didn't prepare for those and therefore lost 1-2 and 0-2. I feel like the matchup vs. those aren't that easy, especially without Punishing Fire.
Won against Miracles 2-0, Death and Taxes 2-0 and Burn 2-1 though.
I feel like Wilt Leaf Liege is a good go to against BGx decks. It's good against hymns/lili, dodges abrupt decay and would make a lot of our creatures out of punishing range. You could also use sword of feast and famine or mirran crusader if you really wanted to pack a lot against them.
edit: I also think scavenging ooze could be really good when it comes to eating graveyards to make goyf smaller, beating DRS and gaining life. You also get to eat punishing fires.
When was the last time you were truly so desperate against BGx that you needed to include a miser's anti-discard tech?
I don't think Wilt-Leaf Liege is needed as long the metagame isn't flooded with -1/-1 effects. I was more asking for general advice for approaching these matchups :)
I perosnally don't have any in my list but if there's a bunch of jund and bug running around I think it could be reasonable in the sb if you're having problems against them
Hello Maverick players,
I have not posted in a few months, however I am still actively playing Punishing Dark Maverick in 2015 and I'm still hooked. I have a million questions for the forum on the deck, however, I'll keep it small for now.
First, how have players felt about Scryb Ranger as of RECENTLY. This card hasn't caught my attention until I seen Delver, Stifle and Wasteland decks get more play since Treasure Cruise got banned.
Next I would like discuss the inclusion of SFM and Batterskull for decks. Personally on Punishing Maverick I've enjoyed 2x Jitte more than SFM, however, delver decks make SFM more appealing to me. Do you think 2x Jitte is underwhelming in a meta full of delver decks, elves and Miracles. SFM is clunky in my deck, however, using cards like Scryb Ranger may be even worse for me.
Now I would like to discuss Pyroblast in a maverick decks sideboard. This card seems attractive to me for a variety of reasons, however, it's not the kind of Haymaker sideboard card I'm used to like Choke. Currently my board has 1x choke (2x Etutors) and 2 pyroblast for general blue hate. Does Pyroblast seem like a good choice, or it's it's efficiency and power less desirable than a game-ending card.
Lastly I have an Abzan build in mind where I don't use DD/Stage or Maze of Ith and use Yavamaya Hallow and Cavern of Souls tech instead. It's been fun, but I haven't tested it like Pun Mav so I'm not 100% confident on build. Has anyone tested some cool lands as Tech and does anyone think stupid Siege Rhino could fit the aggressive build like my friend has been suggesting to me. The direct damage and life swing are how he makes his argument for a single Rhino, but it seems painfully average to me when you could probably get a knight and win.
Thanks for reading. I really appreciate feedback. Been playing Pun Dark Mav constantly since 2013 and only know so many ppl who can help me play this archetype.
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