[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Lemnear]

i understand that literally its not advantage, but it tutors 5 cards of your deck... can´t be bad ahn :p

It's a topdeck Tutor like LDV and the disadvantage adds up especially under considerations of spending Rituals or Petals to cast it in the first place. Other storm variants don't use LDV to Tutor for Ad Nauseam or PIF due to that reason. The Problem is that you create real carddisadvantage by casting Doomsday and try to resolve the Spell what makes up for the disadvantage after you already pushed all-in ... with less cards in hand to protect that spell or draw into the pile to begin with. If you use LDV to Tutor DD that's a whooping Virtual mulligan to 5 in regards to cards compared to your opponent and I doubt a compeditive deck can allow itself to do this even if we ignore the other problems (in particular: the storm iteration)

[Oceanwalker]

Carddisadvantage? If you cast Doomsday you win the game. Where is the disadvantage?

[Lejay]

There is no point in "reviving" a concept whichs problems are still the same since years and without any new printing which affect the deck or the issues it has

Personnally I didn't stop playing the deck because of the "same problems for years", but rather because the format's power level increased a lot and I consider omnitell to be the best combo deck.

between the carddisadvantage,

I don't see the point of the engine/main combo card making card disadvantage. It's a super tutor that converts your ressources into a win. By thinking exclusively in terms of card advantage or CD you would qualify show and tell as a card disadvantage card that doesn't deserve any play either.

the reliance on Doomsday itself (and the BBB cost of casting it),

Thanks to burning wish you don't rely on doomsday that much. I was winning a decent amount of the time with Time spiral, empty the warrens and natural storm built by draw spells and/or sensei/sensei storm. All of these have been used in doomsday piles but it also is used to win without doomsday.

not being able to win w/o a hand and endless shit more.

I won a ton of time without a hand, that's a strength of sensei.

There is also absolutely no reason to play this as a Tendrils deck over having LabMan as the wincon (mainly because of adressing the problems with remaining hand/hatebears/stormcount)

Well I guess at least deathrite shaman and abrupt decay would be a start.

since the printing of Past in Flames which offered the life-independant win-con (compared to Ad Nauseam) Storm needed in order to go the long run in games.

A relevant statement. Yes, I consider doomsday lost its main advantage over ANT. I haven't really played the storm decks these last two years but in my mind there was still match to determine the best deck, and if PiF storm gained the edge, it's not a big one.

Ergo, the only reason to play with the card Doomsday atm is LabMan and it's ability to ignore life total and hatebears like Canonist/Thalia.

I don't see how you can just "ignore" Canonist or Thalia with lab man. I doubt you will get enough mana to do everything or kill with just one spell. They have a board clocking you, they have removals, they have topdecks.
But running burning wish with the mandatory massacre would help.

lim dul is another card like doomsday which is creating carddisadvantage and I see no reason to pile up the disadvantage first by trading discard for disruption and then by LDV and Doomsday. How many cards do you expect to have in hand to work with if you drop lands/SDT but need the motherfucking Dark Ritual + Doomday + a way to draw into the pile for a win-now pile to dodge the danger of dying to your opponents Delver + Lightning Bolt?

I played LDV in something like 2010. Was decent but yes, I wouldn't play it. Ponders and wishes are just better.

understand me right; if you are ok with dying to Bolt and stuff

I am not sure ad nauseam is immune to lightning bolt. If you answer "PiF" then we can find all kind of cards specifically screwing it. I almost always splashed white in doomsday and that negates a lot the post doomsday burn spell if your metagame has a lot of these. But it's still a fast deck and you don't have to be in bolt range in the first place, at least not much more than ANT/PiF storm.

and run Rituals anyways (which do nothing in this deck unless you have DD as well),

If your dark rituals do things for you without any engine/storm spell you are way better than me. But in this deck rituals help also with burning wish, as it would with any other engine that could be/was in the deck.

why not run more stable options to go the long run like Dark Confidant

I am sure you could answer that alone. But dark confidant is a slow card for this deck, it also is a creature which turns on all common removals.

or try to accelerate your deck with Spoils of the Vault or Drift of Phantasms Transmute?

Both are garbage in any deck.

Why has no one ever put time into the idea of adding Infernal Tutor to the LED+DR core to fetch Doomsday T1 and go for a topdeck-pile either finishing with drawing into LabMan or Shelldock?

Infernal tutor has been played for years in doomsday. It was even in the first lists from emidln who was trying to find which split of DD/IT was the best and his conclusion was 0 IT - Max DD.
Lab man and shelldock have both been played a lot in DDFT, even if I personnally never liked Lab Man.

Why use a third color for fetching Doomsday and a wincon if options for both are in U/B?

Burning not only fetches doomsday the combo turn like IT. It also fetches it pre combo, fetches other engines, fetches solutions and the most important, it makes the doomsday engine better just by being in the deck since playing BW-> ToA through double LED increases the storm count and provides many more turn one kills that would just deal 18 otherwise.

Why stick to the painfully slow and pointless gameplan of SDT/Doomsday/Tendrils which has so damn many weaknesses between opposing clocks/discard/hatebears? The point of playing Doomsday is giving a fuck about the common counterstrategies to combo decks and your list is an example of an idea which has proven to be not compeditive and needs to be abandoned in order to profit from Doomsday in a modern environment.

So it's not even "not tier 1" which I could agree on, it's "proven non competitive". Well last time I played it in a big event it was in BoM 2012. Three doomsday players in the room among over 700 players. I lost in top 16 to a bad judge after beating numerous hate, you couldn't even believe it. The second player lost in top8. The last one made 7-2. If it has proven to be non competitive since then and you want me to believe you , you'll need some strong evidence or demonstration. Until then I'll consider that the main factors are the fact that so few people run it, and so few excellent players run this very demanding deck.
It was probably the best deck in the format before griselbrand's printing so I would bet on it still being a competitive deck. But you were probably already saying it was garbage at that time I guess.

[Ancestral]

most awesome answer above

thos

thank you so much for your thoughts about the deck and completly destroy those falsse statments ::D
after your answer i´m gonna try harder with the deck, and your sentence about the 3 players in BoM just confirms my thoughts about the deck, competetive for sure, but not many people plying it :)

about the deck i ll probably take out LDV :) you think it´s more viable to play with white now for silences or just keep BURg ? any other suggestions are wellcome :)

again, thanks a lot for the excellent answer lejay

[Pelikanudo]

I have to say something to defend this deck:

I think it is the unique combo deck that uses cantrips to reduce the mana invested to just combo - this is in deed a great thing.
I recognize some years have elapsed since I played the deck and when starting to playing the deck long time ago I just took it as a Case Study Deck- my goal was to reach a Top 8 and to stop to play it - I also remember that timeframe , also a friend of mine was happy to discover such Storm archetype - me and my frind reached several tops and people around us started to look in a strange way to us... there were normal people playing normal decks and then me and my friend talking about piles and strange things... I remember when I finished before him I quickly went to look his match up and the same occured backwards... we were the master of the universe... good era was that!

I could talk also in the name of my friend when I say that DDFT was likely the most difficult deck to play but it also was the best deck you could play to win a tournament with a moreless predictable metagame.

maybe someday I will take DDFT again to crush again my opp.. ha ha ha... but I'll need to invest some time to study the new piles etc etc...

I still enjoy playing TES the most and I like to predict the odds in thi but at least I dons deck... this for me is funnier and I won't say more easy to play, but at least I dont have to study the piles before the torunaments...

[Lemnear]

Personnally I didn't stop playing the deck because of the "same problems for years", but rather because the format's power level increased a lot and I consider omnitell to be the best combo deck.

in other words: the deck isn't able to compete on top level even among combo decks, which is what I said.

I don't see the point of the engine/main combo card making card disadvantage. It's a super tutor that converts your ressources into a win. By thinking exclusively in terms of card advantage or CD you would qualify show and tell as a card disadvantage card that doesn't deserve any play either.

there is a difference between "S&T + Threat" or "Dark Ritual + Doomsday + way to draw into the pile + having enough mana to do something + have a way to play around hate". Another aspect: S&T costs 3 total; how much total is a win-now-doomsday? Twice as much.

Thanks to burning wish you don't rely on doomsday that much. I was winning a decent amount of the time with Time spiral, empty the warrens and natural storm built by draw spells and/or sensei/sensei storm. All of these have been used in doomsday piles but it also is used to win without doomsday. I won a ton of time without a hand, that's a strength of sensei.

That is fair in regard to Burning wish to find a win aside the resolved Doomsday. The most wins I remember with the help of SDT came through Helm of Awakening ;)

A relevant statement. Yes, I consider doomsday lost its main advantage over ANT. I haven't really played the storm decks these last two years but in my mind there was still match to determine the best deck, and if PiF storm gained the edge, it's not a big one.

I consider this debatable, but I don't want to get lost in details about advantages of certain storm-buildarounds. It's about Doomsdays place in the evolving metagame and potential to ascend from it's "tier 2" status which I can't see without breaking out of a shell which imo didn't substantially changed for the last 5 years.

I don't see how you can just "ignore" Canonist or Thalia with lab man. I doubt you will get enough mana to do everything or kill with just one spell. They have a board clocking you, they have removals, they have topdecks.
But running burning wish with the mandatory massacre would help.

one of the main advantages of dismissing Ad Nauseam in storm is running Massacre postboard in your MB, and in this case including it in your DD piles to sweep the board and proceed with the compact LabMan plan. I'm well aware of the Wish as a tool to grab Massacre G1 as a TES player.

I played LDV in something like 2010. Was decent but yes, I wouldn't play it. Ponders and wishes are just better.

I can agree here.

I am not sure ad nauseam is immune to lightning bolt. If you answer "PiF" then we can find all kind of cards specifically screwing it. I almost always splashed white in doomsday and that negates a lot the post doomsday burn spell if your metagame has a lot of these. But it's still a fast deck and you don't have to be in bolt range in the first place, at least not much more than ANT/PiF storm.

Just between you and me: I have no clue why people kill themselves with Ad Nauseam other than greed or stupidity especially if they know their opponent is running Bolts. That's a mistake you maybe make once or twice as a beginner, but I don't know why that sticks as a stigma of playing Ad Nauseam. Point is that between PIF/AN/EtW storm has more than enough tools to deal with plenty of hate. Shut off the yard? Drop Goblins or cast AN. I could continue the list, but you get the idea. A big difference here however is that a card like PIF is pretty much counterproof compared to the post-Doomsday Ideas Unbound which adds up to the card-disadvantage of casring Doomsday and is a very critical moment.

If your dark rituals do things for you without any engine/storm spell you are way better than me. But in this deck rituals help also with burning wish, as it would with any other engine that could be/was in the deck.
I am sure you could answer that alone. But dark confidant is a slow card for this deck, it also is a creature which turns on all common removals.
Both are garbage in any deck.

The topic of Rituals is complex as I talked about in in context of a storm-less DD list OR potentially additional use for it by running more black spells like confidant to actually profit from the relative life-independant concept and more controlling nature.

Burning not only fetches doomsday the combo turn like IT. It also fetches it pre combo, fetches other engines, fetches solutions and the most important, it makes the doomsday engine better just by being in the deck since playing BW-> ToA through double LED increases the storm count and provides many more turn one kills that would just deal 18 otherwise.

I'm aware of the additional stormcount. Still dunno if that justifies the color-splash with returning Wastelands to the format.

So it's not even "not tier 1" which I could agree on, it's "proven non competitive". Well last time I played it in a big event it was in BoM 2012. Three doomsday players in the room among over 700 players. I lost in top 16 to a bad judge after beating numerous hate, you couldn't even believe it.

2012 is long passed and that's a problem for the ongoing discussion, i fear. I'd love to hear of that T16 match, but we should keep hat for GP Lille ;)

The second player lost in top8. The last one made 7-2. If it has proven to be non competitive since then and you want me to believe you , you'll need some strong evidence or demonstration. Until then I'll consider that the main factors are the fact that so few people run it, and so few excellent players run this very demanding deck.

we know, Its a myth that this deck is soooo complex to play. It only needs a thinking pilot with basic math skills to start with, but I agree that we have a numbers game here for tournament performances to really compare performances (which is also a known TES problem). I know about Tristans Top 8 during a time Maverick and Zoo were still Topdecks

It was probably the best deck in the format before griselbrand's printing so I would bet on it still being a competitive deck. But you were probably already saying it was garbage at that time I guess.

We have no more stuff like Goblins, Zoo or Maverick in the metagame, but saw plenty of new, powerful printings. We can't consider Doomsday retained its relative powerlevel to this day, simply to that fact and without ever changing anything. that is all.

thos

thank you so much for your thoughts about the deck and completly destroy those falsse statments ::D
after your answer i´m gonna try harder with the deck, and your sentence about the 3 players in BoM just confirms my thoughts about the deck, competetive for sure, but not many people plying it :)

about the deck i ll probably take out LDV :) you think it´s more viable to play with white now for silences or just keep BURg ? any other suggestions are wellcome :)

again, thanks a lot for the excellent answer lejay

This is is a totally pathetic post especially without bringing up anything to adress the discussion Jean-Mary and I have about Doomsdays position in the CURRENT metagame. If you consider results from 2012 to have any meaning for todays metagame, you might also want to argue that Zoo is a top deck against the current OmniTell/Miracles/Storm/Blade metagame, right?

the whitesplash and the Silences in this deck suffer the same problems which got them cutted in TES (unable to interact with dual-angle-hate)

[Oceanwalker]

Finished 3-1-1 last time i went to a local tournament with doomsday 3 weeks ago. Only 21 players and no real competitive level, but the deck felt strong nonetheless.

I played a 5-2 split between discard and chants and labmaniac main.

Heres a short report if anyone is interested:

Round 1: casual deck with arcane laboratory main 2:1
game 1: discarded arcane laboratory and won
game 2: he managed to land arcane laboratory, countered my chain of vapor and turned labman into a frog with Polymorphist's Jest in response to my brainstorm for the win :D
game 3: easy win

Round 2: Dark Maverick 2:0
game 1: i blindtherapy thalia but he had nothing
game 2: i abrupt decay thalia turn 3 and win turn 4

Round 3: Sneak Show 2:1
game 1: on the play i go turn 1 top, he goes turn 1 show and tell into griselbrand. I had the turn 2 kill but obviously lost to his counters
game 2 + 3: i rip his hand apart and both games he never could recover. One game i won with tendrils, the other with hardcast labman followed by a PTT-pile of GP, GP, BS, x, x

Round 4: Miracles 1:1
game 1: i had the turn 1 kill on the draw, i decided to go for it since i didn't want to lose to turn 2 counterbalance. He brainstormed in response to doomsday and found fow, countered doomsday followed by turn 2 counterbalance :D
game 2: during the game he had 3(!) copies of counterbalance online. I had top in play and managed to find all 3 abrupt decays along with a lot of discard + chant. At some point he only had 1 (unknown) card in hand. I decided to go for it and he destroyed my top with wear / tear in response to doomsday, leaving me with no draw spell and shutting down the tendrils plan. I made a PTT labman pile and won the turn after.
game 3: draw since we had no time left

Round 5: Dredge 0:2
game 1: he went crazy on turn 2 while i had the hand for a turn 3 win
game 2: on his turn 1 he flashbacked several therapys and reanimated iona while i had the hand for a turn 2 win


As i said before i'm aware that such a small event is far from competitive. Especially since i didn't face any delver deck and i consider delver decks to be the most difficult decks to beat for doomsday. (ant is way more favoured to fight through a ton of counters than doomsday with discard only)

So in my opinion the way to get a chance to win against blue decks (tempo and miracles) is to splash white for chants. But then again we are 4-color main and become weaker against stifle and wasteland. So i'm currently testing to cut burning wishes completly since i always hated half of my business spells to be some kind of off-color anyway (and cutting wishes already is a viable boarding plan against rug-delver for example). So why not go without them mainboard if we expect a lot of delver decks?
I think the worst parts about cutting wishes are the lost +1 stormcount in every tendrils pile and the decreased business spell count.
These issues could be solved to some extend by labmaniac and an increased cantrip count.

Advantages would be a way better tempo, miracles and storm matchup with chants while our manabase remains as stable as in Ubr doomsday. Furthermore we get a lot free slots in our sideboard to dedicate to non-blue matchups (terminus?) and to fight dual-angle-hate postboard more easily.

I know most players would never agree to cut burning wishes but for me it seems like a viable way to go in order to make it more competitive.

[Lemnear]

I don't see Silences/Chants an option in general atm. Against Miracles your main Problem is Counterbalance and that is unaffected by Silence/Chant and with the Dual-hate of either counter+discard or counter+hatebear in the current meta which the white-Splash of Silence/Chant can't get hold on.

[Ancestral]

This is is a totally pathetic post especially without bringing up anything to adress the discussion Jean-Mary and I have about Doomsdays position in the CURRENT metagame. If you consider results from 2012 to have any meaning for todays metagame, you might also want to argue that Zoo is a top deck against the current OmniTell/Miracles/Storm/Blade metagame, right?

the whitesplash and the Silences in this deck suffer the same problems which got them cutted in TES (unable to interact with dual-angle-hate)

i didn´t bring anything jsut because jean said all, and your statment about domsday/show and tell, have a pure lie, so doomsday have to fight trhough hate, and show and tell doesnt?

lemnear, you already said similar things in previous post when comparing decks, but i m not here to create a fight or focus on something less important than the deck, i would not respond to your meanless comments about any other topic than the deck itself ( your comment abbout my post was simply childish and not really usefull )

[Oceanwalker]

I don't see Silences/Chants an option in general atm. Against Miracles your main Problem is Counterbalance and that is unaffected by Silence/Chant and with the Dual-hate of either counter+discard or counter+hatebear in the current meta which the white-Splash of Silence/Chant can't get hold on.

Counterbalance is only a problem preboard. For that reason i would run only 2 silence main and board in 2-3 additional silence/chants along with 3 abrupt decay. This way the matchup is easily winable. But without chants you will likely lose to a floating counterspell.

Also decks like rug/burg delver with a lot of conditional disruption like stifle spell snare and REB sometimes are impossible to beat with discard.

[Ancestral]

Counterbalance is only a problem preboard. For that reason i would run only 2 silence main and board in 2-3 additional silence/chants along with 3 abrupt decay. This way the matchup is easily winable. But without chants you will likely lose to a floating counterspell.

Also decks like rug/burg delver with a lot of conditional disruption like stifle spell snare and REB sometimes are impossible to beat with discard.

yes silence its pretty good against rug dever essencially and miracles! i love to have that effect but agains delver its hard to mantain the collors up for everything between stifles/wastelands !

About the burning wish, i think i has to be a part of the deck, its pretty good, a bit slow but this deck can function good in a mid game :) And thanks for the report, its to see that some people play doomsday :D

[Doishy]

I know most players would never agree to cut burning wishes but for me it seems like a viable way to go in order to make it more competitive.

I've been testing heavily with a 0 BW build. It feels like it has advantages with the manabase and for a tad more streamlined play (am not missing the +1 storm) but the lack of pre-board answers to certain things like Thalia definitely hurts. The discussion on stormboards re: W for Terminus is a possible good way to combat this.
I have also been testing out as many DTT's as I can jam in and they do some serious work.

[sawatarix]

Nice to see freshness here again.

Doomsday is maybe one of the most unexplored Decks in Legacy so far and to be honest I'm also still in the learning process although I have a decent amount of experience with other storm decks like ANT and TES.

So, some questions regarding the deck design. PLease note that these ideas are just intuitive.

I feel like the deck goes off around turn 2-4 and you dont even have to use all your ressources like ant with led cracking which leads me to countermagic as our protection: flusterstorm ? This spell has been really powerful with senseis divining top to either protect our doomsday or to counter our opponents stuff (combo or discard,etc) proactively.

Another thing are the 2 lotus petals: Do we really need them? I sided them out a lot so i was thinking about tuning the deck more in a control-combo shell with 2 abrupt decays maindeck to combat counterbalance but also annoying permanents.
Remember that in legacy once the game goes beyond turn 2 we have to deal with all kind of stuff our opponent is slamming against us.



Greetings from Tokyo

Kai

[Namida]

Flusterstorm is good disruption, but bad protection. Of course, you can use it to force your Doomsday through, and a lot of people *should* be fighting over Doomsday because they won't know what five cards you would select, but this deck does use LED in a ton of piles and that'd be a problem if you run into anyone who opts to sandbag their disruption for any reason. I think it'd be a good card if you're playing Emrakul because that's the kind of pile that doesn't use LED and doesn't require you to do much else past resolve Doomsday, but I don't know how good Emrakul is these days. I like Flusterstorm as a sideboard card, and I'm actually considering playing it in my sideboard over Xantid Swarm (but I'm unsure because the biggest combo deck is Omniscience with Boseiju).

Other than the clash with LED, I don't like counters a whole lot in this deck because you can only play so much protection/disruption, and since Doomsday pretty much kills you if your plans get messed up after you cast it, I would rather be maxed out on cards that make me 100% sure that my opponent can't mess up my plans, like discard (for information) and chants (which literally say "your opponent can't cast spells).

I wouldn't play this deck without at least one Lotus Petal because it goes into a few piles. Burning Wish also does wonders against many things that opponents can be throwing at you, but you're not the first person I've seen suggest maindecking Abrupt Decay. I don't know if I'm on board with it, but Counterbalance is a real beating so I think it would make sense to try it.

Also, I imagine I'll be seeing you at GP Kyoto.

[sawatarix]

Interesting. Thank you for your quick response.

Yeah, when i first looked at the card doomsday the card itself reminded me at the card Show and Tell: You cast it and win the game 1 turn later or even in the same turn. Sneakshow uses Countermagic so i was curious if we can also adapt it. Even if we cant protect our spells after a resolved doomsday because of the leds in most of the lines as you said.

Hm, i think you already have had this topic in this thread but because there are not that many winning decklists on the internet post treasure cruise ban i would like to know which approach would be the best.
Does Dig Through Time get a home here?
What about PLaneswalker in our sideboard like Jace or even Counterbalance to make it a real controldeck against other combodecks? I mean we already have 4 Senseis Tops.

I have the feeling that it is also possible to swap the entire deck shell into a more controlish version with a doomsday finish, similar to the jeskai ascendency combo deck which have gotten quite popular these days.


PS: I will be at GP Kyoto with 2 Byes but also doing some coverage work for TokyoMTG.com on friday.

[nevilshute]

Interesting. Thank you for your quick response.

Yeah, when i first looked at the card doomsday the card itself reminded me at the card Show and Tell: You cast it and win the game 1 turn later or even in the same turn. Sneakshow uses Countermagic so i was curious if we can also adapt it. Even if we cant protect our spells after a resolved doomsday because of the leds in most of the lines as you said.

Hm, i think you already have had this topic in this thread but because there are not that many winning decklists on the internet post treasure cruise ban i would like to know which approach would be the best.
Does Dig Through Time get a home here?
What about PLaneswalker in our sideboard like Jace or even Counterbalance to make it a real controldeck against other combodecks? I mean we already have 4 Senseis Tops.

I have the feeling that it is also possible to swap the entire deck shell into a more controlish version with a doomsday finish, similar to the jeskai ascendency combo deck which have gotten quite popular these days.


PS: I will be at GP Kyoto with 2 Byes but also doing some coverage work for TokyoMTG.com on friday.

Hey Kai,

This is a bit of an aside, but do you know if there will coverage in English of the gp main event?

[Lemnear]

i didn´t bring anything jsut because jean said all, and your statment about domsday/show and tell, have a pure lie, so doomsday have to fight trhough hate, and show and tell doesnt?

Where did I "lie"? That S&T is a manawise a cheaper and more Compact Combo than Doomsday is a damn fact.

[sawatarix]

Hey Kai,

This is a bit of an aside, but do you know if there will coverage in English of the gp main event?

Hey Martin,

Unfortunately there is not. But i will do some coverage on Friday for TokyoMTG and we will upload them on our youtube channel.
So stay tuned ;)

[Ancestral]

Where did I "lie"? That S&T is a manawise a cheaper and more Compact Combo than Doomsday is a damn fact.

When you said the advantages you said that show and tell its just that and creature, and doomsday had to fight through hate, i m saying that snt has to fight trhough hate cards too and disruption, like any other combo deck.

[Lemnear]

When you said the advantages you said that show and tell its just that and creature, and doomsday had to fight through hate, i m saying that snt has to fight trhough hate cards too and disruption, like any other combo deck.

So you choose to ignore that pushing S&T (which is often paired with Boseiju these days) though Thalia, counterbalance, Wasteland, counters, etc. is miles easier than chaining 10 spells together (which need more mana to begin with) against the beforementioned cards?

There is no "lie" involved.