Second DD or wish can have a great value.
If you run Shelldock, A doomsday should be countered if you have no waste. So the Doomsday draw a counter, in exactly the same way as S&T does. If they do not have the counter I do not really care about having an additional doomsday in hand while I have win the game.
It helps a lot against discard too (except cabal).
And wish can well be used to answer many things, or serve to a second attempt to go off if something goes wrong. So I disagree with your statement about "a second Doomsday or Burning Wish has near to no value in a starting grip in DDFT".
About mulligans, in my opinion in combo deck you usually mull hands which lack something (mana/cantrips/business) rather than a hand which have clunky elements.
In OmniTell you can basically keep any hand with mana and cantrips(s) to find what you are missing within three turns so lacking Combo Elements are no reason for a mulligan.Originally Posted by dte
A second attempt to combo off via Wish is a strange argument as you most likely burn A BIT more cards and resources than the Wish alone to go off and the situations in which your opponent rather Fights over your Doomsday than your kill should be very limited.
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A wish in hand can also reduce the cost of your pile when making a brainstorm pile, or used to make an IC pile as well allowing you to play around red blasts. Or as I'm sure you do in TES sometimes, wish for a discard spell for protection, and then cast DD.
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Why is there so much storm bickering? Nobody cares who thinks which version of a storm deck is better. Play the one you have more fun playing.
I personally think ANT is better than TES, but you won't find me playing ANT unless you pry my burning wishes out of my cold dead hands.
I also think Doomsday is the most challenging deck I have ever picked up (at least legacy doomsday, vintage doomsday pales in comparison) and for that reason, I really enjoy shuffling up legacy doomsday. I'm not going to get on my soap box and preach about how it is the best storm deck ever; nor will I put people down for making the choice to play a diminishing returns in their sideboard.
Who gives a shit.
None of this bickering is doing the storm players any good, in any of these forums or facebook groups.
The bickering, to a point, does serve an important purpose. If we were all just here for fun, there wouldn't be as much in the way of innovation, improvement or change. If you're not willing to tease out a deck's shortcomings or advantages compared to other builds or strategies, or you're not even "playing to win", then how can you make the most concerted effort to move anything forward?
To introduce a new point: has anyone played a build with a sb lab man as compared to a main deck one? I was thinking it might be nice to go into all g1s with zero "dead" cards, and also not show lab man in my rfg when i go off g1, but then with lab man gone you do lose some pass-the-turn piles, afaik. has anyone tested that change and if so, how did it seem to compare?
@lejay you also mentioned before that you arent a fan of lab maniac. would you mind explaining what you dislike about it?
i play that, g1 win only with storm, and in side i tested lab maniac and sheldock/emmy too, so 3 win cons possible g2, and its pretty nice, the option of winning by different angles can induze your opp in sb errors, and have great advantage about the hate they bring in !
MTGO Daily Event
I've been trying a few different builds of Doomsday, including trying to accelerate with Mox Opal to mixed results (roughly a 50% win rate). This addition allowed for much faster velocity in cantripping and assembling the combo, while making Empty the Warrens much stronger, but also increased the inconsistency.
I recently tried adding Dig Through Time as a resilient, late-game engine, and entered a Daily Event on MTGO, finishing at 3-1 with consecutive punts in my match loss. I decided to go through the replays in detail (let me know if it's too much and noone is actually going to read it):
Round 1 - Infect
Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Dig Through Time
Burning Wish
Silence
Dark Ritual
Misty Rainforest
Tundra
Swamp
A rather bad opener, which I probably should have mulliganed since it does nothing until turn 2 and needs to draw a cantrip. I keep anyways and see the opponent start with a turn 1 Noble Hierarch; I put him on infect and hope that my turn 4 combo IF I draw a cantrip is good enough. I draw a Burning Wish, play Misty Rainforest and pass. My opponent plays an Inkmoth Nexus into Blighted Agent and I draw a Sensei's Divining Top and Burning Wish for Doomsday. My opponent plays a second Noble Hierarch and hits me for 3 poison. I spin top and Cabal Therapy my opponent, naming Invigorate, and hit! I also see Daze and Force of Will, which is fine due to the Silence in hand. My opponent hits me for another 3 poison and I draw a Misty Rainforest and wish for a Cabal Therapy to take the Daze. My opponent hits me to 9 poison and has Force of Will + Unknown. I spin the top and draw Brainstorm, cast Silence and use the usual Cantrip + Top pile for the win.
Win - Turn 5 Silence + Doomsday (Cantrip + Top)
-2 Dig Through Time
+2 Xantid Swarm
I'm not sure how to sideboard against infect, but I treated it like Reanimator and figured that Dig Through Time is way too slow. Advice on this is welcome.
Game 2 - I draw my opening 7:
Doomsday
Burning Wish
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Xantid Swarm
Thoughtseize
Lotus Petal
If the Lotus Petal was a fetchland I think I keep this hand. I mulligan to:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Ponder
Polluted Delta
Volcanic Island
Swamp
Good Enough. My opponent starts off with turn 1 Glistener Elf and I draw a Doomsday and Ponder into a Gitaxian Probe, Dark Ritual, and Sensei's Divining Top. I keep the Gitaxian Probe with the top on the bottom and pass the turn. My opponent plays a fetchland into a Noble Hierarch and hits me for 2 poison. I draw a Dark Ritual and probe, seeing Force of Will, Blighted Agent, Glistener Elf, and Vines of Vastwood. I only have 1more turn to find protection with the combo in hand. I brainstorm into 2 lands and a Dark Ritual, putting 2 lands back, and play the top. My opponent hits me to 8 poison. I draw an LED. Since I must win this turn, I should first cast both Dark Rituals and Ponder, hoping to hit discard. Instead, I ponder first, finding a Thoughtseize, land, and Top, and I get my Dark Ritual Force of Willed. If I played it in the correct order, if my first Dark Ritual gets Forced, I Ponder instead into the land for the win.
Loss - Turn 3 PUNT
Game 3 - Hooray, on the play for the first time:
Sensei's Divining Top
Gitaxian Probe
Silence
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Bayou
I keep while my opponent Mulligans to 5. I play a Bayou into a Top and pass the turn. I activate Top, seeing LED, Silence, and Cabal Therapy. My opponent plays a Tropical Island and passes. I probe, seeing the following hand: Berserk, Brainstorm, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm. That's quite a mulligan to 5. I cast my freshly drawn Cabal Therapy into a Daze (this is probably incorrect). I play a land and pass, while my opponent brainstorms at my end step. My opponent plays a Glistener Elf and passes. I have a protected combo win here (opponent tapped out, 3 lands, Lotus Petal, Silence, Doomsday, LED, and Top), but decide not to do it because I don't like winning, instead drawing a Burning Wish. I instead probe, seeing Berserk, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm. My opponent plays Invigorate and Berserk and I lose.
Loss - Turn 4 PUNT with protected win in hand
0-1 (1-2) should have been 1-0 (2-0). Great start to the event!
Round 2 - LED Dredge
Game 1 - I win the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Burning Wish
Brainstorm
Ponder
Silence
Silence
Cabal Therapy
Lion's Eye Diamond
Can't keep this obviously.
Doomsday
Burning Wish
Sensei's Divining Top
Gitaxian Probe
Silence
Swamp
Not a great 6, but this wins if I draw a Dark Ritual. I play a Top and pass. My opponent casts Breakthrough and flashes back faithless looting into Dread Return, making 6 zombie tokens and an 8/8 Golgari Grave-Troll, and flashes back Cabal Therapy. I figure out that I have to topdeck exactly a Dark Ritual without spinning Top (4 out of 54 cards), and decide to concede in response (maybe incorrect? Depends on how much Dredge sideboards against storm), hoping that my opponent sideboards for Nic Fit or some other fair deck.
Loss - Turn 1 Dredge
-1 Cabal Therapy
-2 Silence
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
I wish I had not cut the 2nd Grafdigger's Cage the night before. I bring in the Red Elemental Blasts to hit Breakthroughs and keep some silences as psuedo Time Walks.
Game 2: I draw my opening 7:
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Red Elemental Blast
Misty Rainforest
I keep, hoping that my opponent is also seeing a super slow hand. I start off with a Top. My opponent casts Faithless looting, discarding a Grave-Troll and Stinkweed Imp. I Brainstorm and my hand is now Ponder, Probe, Silence, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Misty Rainforest. I play the land and say go. My opponent casts Breakthrough, hitting 2 Narcomoebas and a Cabal Therapy. I cast Silence in response to the Narcomoeba trigger (I should have cast Silence on upkeep). My opponent is now hellbent and I activate Top on my turn and draw a Misty Rainforest, and Ponder into a Doomsday and win with the usual Cantrip + Top pile.
Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (Cantrip + Top)
Game 3 - On the draw:
Ponder
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta
Tundra
I decide to mulligan, since the hand needs to topdeck a Doomsday (Ponder is my only cantrip)
Ideas Unbound
Sensei's Divining Top
Red Elemental Blast
Thoughtseize
Rain of Filth
Dark Ritual
Nope
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Rain of Filth
Tundra
Not a bad mulligan to 5. My opponent keeps 7 and starts with a Gemstone Mine into a Faithless Looting, discarding Flame-Kin Zealot and Bridge from Below (I have a chance!). I draw Burning Wish and Ponder, seeing Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Doomsday. I shuffle it away since I have no initial black mana and draw a Polluted Delta. My opponent casts and LED and Careful Study, discarding Breakthrough and Narcomoeba, followed by another Faithless Looting, discarding a Golgari Thug and Cabal Therapy (this is probably the slowest 7 card hand I've seen from Dredge). I play Brainstorm on my main phase and my hand is now Burning Wish, Brainstorm, Probe, LED, LED, Polluted Delta. I play the land, both LEDs, and pass, holding up Brainstorm. My opponent casts Cabal Therapy, naming Doomsday, and flashes back Faithless Looting and Cabal Therapy. In response I brainstorm and put Gitaxian Probe and Burning Wish on top. My opponent surprisingly hits, naming Sensei's Divining Top. I probe into Burning Wish, cracking my LEDs, into Time Spiral and cast Silence into Doomsday for the win.
Win - Turn 3 Time Spiral into Silence + Doomsday (Cantrip + LED).
1-1 (2-1)
Round 3 - Esper Stoneblade
Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Silence
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Underground Sea
Bayou
Nope
Brainstorm
Ponder
Thoughtseize
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Misty Rainforest
Solid. My opponent plays a Flooded Strand into a Tundra and Brainstorms. I draw a Dig Through Time. I'm worried that this is Miracles keeping a 1-land + Counterbalance hand (hoping to hit a land off of Brainstorm), and I crack Misty Rainforest for an Underground Sea and cast Thoughtseize, seeing Force of Will, Brainstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and a Polluted Delta. I take Stoneforge Mystic, figuring that, without a clock, I have plenty of time to sculpt a hand to beat Force of Will, and since this is before sideboarding my card quality is better. I cast Brainstorm and my hand is Dig, Brainstorm, Ponder, Therapy, Dark Ritual, Polluted Delta. I cast Cabal Therapy, which is met with Force of Will, pitching Snapcaster Mage.
Long story short, I cast lots of discard spells into a Dig Through Time, finding enough for Silence into Burning Wish into Doomsday with Top in play.
Win - Turn 6 Silence + Burning Wish into Doomsday (Top + LED)
-1 Lotus Petal
-4 Silence
+1 Laboratory Maniac
+2 Xantid Swarm
+2 Red Elemental Blast
I think these games are going to be long, and the Red Elemental Blasts and Laboratory Maniac are for Meddling Mage.
Game 2: I draw my opening 7:
Sensei's Divining Top
Gitaxian Probe
Xantid Swarm
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
I am strangely not greedy today and mulligan into:
Doomsday
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Bayou
My opponent starts with land, go. I draw a Dig Through Time and follow suit. My opponent casts a Stoneforge Mystic and I draw a Red Elemental Blast. I play a land and turn my Wish into a Cabal Therapy. My opponent passes and I draw and cast a Thoughtseize (opponent vials in a Batterskull), seeing Dig Through Time, Counterspell, Lingering Souls x2, Tasigur, and Sword of Fire and Ice. I take the sword (maybe my opponent should have vialed this in), and Therapy the Counterspell. I cast a Brainstorm and Dig Through Time, looking for a Silence and miss; my hand is now Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Ponder, Ponder, Red Elemental Blast. My opponent hits me to 5 life and I go for the double cantrip pile (I should have gone for a Laboratory Maniac win), but my opponent extirpates LED, so I likely lose regardless.
Loss - Turn 5 Doomsday (lose to Extirpate)
Game 3 - On the play:
Doomsday
Burning Wish
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Xantid Swarm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Swamp
I start with Swamp into Top. My opponent Thoughtseizes my LED. I top into Probe and see a hand of Lingering Souls, Sword of Fire and Ice, Ponder, and 3 lands. I draw a fetchland and cast Xantid Swarm. My opponent Ponders and passes. I play a land and pass. My opponent plays a Stoneforge Mystic. I untap, attack with Xantid Swarm, cast Doomsday (without Ritual) and win with the usual Cantrip + Top pile.
Win - Turn 4 Doomsday (Cantrip + Top).
2-1 (2-1)
Round 4 - Shardless BUG
Game 1 - I win the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Doomsday
Doomsday
Doomsday
Burning Wish
Dig Through Time
Dark Ritual
Misty Rainforest
Nope
Sensei's Divining Top
Silence
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Solid. I fetch an Island and play Top. My opponent leads with a Verdant Catacombs and passes. I top into a dark ritual and play a Polluted Delta. My opponent plays a Tarmogoyf. I fetch for a swamp and see Doomsday, Probe, Ponder. I draw Probe, use Petal to cast Silence, and draw Doomsday with my Top and win with the usual 1 cantrip pile.
Win - Turn 3 Silence + into Doomsday (Probe)
-2 Silence
+2 Xantid Swarm
I expect Hymn to Tourach and Liliana, so Silences aren't as good. I expect Dig Through Time to be awesome.
Game 2: I draw my opening 7:
Dig Through Time
Brainstorm
Silence
Thoughtseize
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Swamp
My opponent starts with land, go. I draw an Ideas Unbound and cast Thoughtseize, seeing Nihil Spellbomb, Shardless Agent x2, Ancestral Vision, Swamp, Bayou; I discard a Shardless Agent and play LED. My opponent casts a Phyrexian Revoker on LED. I draw a Dig and pass. My opponent plays a Shardless Agent into a Brainstorm. I draw a Burning Wish, Brainstorm, and wish for a Void Snare. My hand is now Dig, Probe, Silence, Xantid Swarm, Void Snare. My opponent plays Shardless Agent into Ancestral Visions. I cast Probe and see FoW, but no blue card and attempt to cast Dig Through Time. My opponent activates spellbomb and finds a blue card to FoW my Dig. I lose.
Loss - Turn 5
Game 3 - On the play:
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Bayou
I start with Island into Top. My opponent plays a Nihil Spellbomb. I cast Brainstorm and Probe, seeing Hymn to Tourach, Liliana, Liliana, Dig Through Time, Shardless Agent, and Polluted Delta. I Thoughtseize the Hymn and play an LED; my hand is now Ponder, Probe, Petal. My opponent draws a card off of spellbomb and plays a land. I Probe and Brainstorm into Dig Through Time and Brainstorm, playing Petal. My opponent plays a Liliana and I discard Dig Through Time. I attempt to cast Doomsday by Brainstorming and cracking LED in response, but my opponent's unknown card is a Force of Will. My opponent casts Dig into a Tarmogoyf and I top into LED, Dark Ritual, REB. I draw LED and pass (at 7 after being hit by goyf). My opponent plays a Shardless into a Deathrite Shaman; I put a fetch on top of my library. I fetch and Top into a Dig Through Time (cracking LED for BBB in response), finding a Doomsday and cantrip and win with the usual 1 cantrip pile.
If my opponent had let the Doomsday resolve and instead counters the Ideas Unbound, I lose this match.
Win - Turn 6 Dig Through Time into Doomsday + Cantrip.
3-1 (2-1)
Props
-Mostly favorable matchups
-Dig Through Time
Slops
-8 Mulligans in 4 rounds (12 games)
-Mulliganing away 2 hands with Xantid Swarm + 0 Land
-Didn't get to Empty the Warrens
-Punts
Stats
-Won with Doomsday 7 times (3x Turn 3, 2x Turn 4, 1x Turn 5, 1x Turn 6)
-Cast Time Spiral 1 time (1 win)
TLDR
3-1 (7-5) in MTGO Daily Event
1-2 vs. Infect
2-1 vs. LED Dredge
2-1 vs. Esper Stoneblade
2-1 vs. Shardless BUG
Thanks for reading and I'll be interested in any feedback!
Here's the deck:
Mainboard
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Dig Through Time
2x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Silence
3x Burning Wish
3x Doomsday
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Rain of Filth
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Swamp
Sideboard
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Karakas
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Void Snare
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Doomsday
1x Time Spiral
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
Last edited by DireNTropy; 03-27-2015 at 04:37 PM.
Fantastic read. It is very much appreciated.
Just a few questions about your build:
- 4x silence with only 1 Tundra as a white producing land seems loose, have you tried other line ups with either Karakas main, a 2nd Tundra or a Scrubland?
- The land/petal count. Most lists I've seen will run 17-18 lands and 1-2 petals. Partly, I think, a concession to 4x top being more of a sink. Can you elaborate a bit on your thoughts on this?
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DTT + Silence makes absolutely Zero sense. Discard is miles better to disrupt the opponent while feeding the graveyard and never causes issues with colors either.
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Hey Lem, how would be your take on DDFT? Care to share a decklist?
Currently playing: T.E.S. & RUG Delver
@vermiis
I understand what you are trying to say, but I think this is false statement nonetheless. Discard makes DTT better than Silence makes DTT. But if DTT without discard but with Silence is still good enough to play then it does indeed make some amount of sense.
I'm not saying I would prioritize silence over discard. And making DTT worse is indeed one argument, but I think honing in on this particular card-to-card relationship is too narrow. It's a part of a bigger picture. Might even be as simple as a matter of personal playstyle / preference. And a DDFT deck with chant effects can still be a fine place to run a few DTTs. Know what I mean?
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I have no list, but I would draft something with Street Wraith replacing SDT for speed and for maintaining the "free" draw post-DD in addition to Probe while feeding DTT (and make it castable by turn 3) to begin with; paired with a Deaths Shadow SB man-plan
just from the top of my head
edit:
If we look at the bigger picture, we need to look at the manabase as well, which is a 5c fetch/dual monstrosity if you run Silence. Take the list as example with a single white Land to fetch which however has no application for the combo and is even paired with two Islands for whatever reason for a total of 9 spells which even need blue mana at all (aming them only 1 spell requiring UU)
I'm not the audience to buy the "playstyle" argument. I'm far too long involved in the game and decode this phrase as justification to play cute stuff
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nice to see your positive result, DireNTropy.
I see you run 4 lotus petals and 15 lands, were you satisfied with them? There is also a nice synergy between petals and digs, that's for sure.
Because Dig is such a powerful setup spell (most of the time the card itself is gg) its acceptable to tune a deck around it.
So this also means more fetchlands instead of duallands and maybe more proactive discard.
Thanks for the read DireNTropy. I would like to see this kind of detailled report again.
I also find that your manabase is light on fetchs, and indeed most of your mulls are because of NO-lands opener.
These two hands you mulled while with a fetch replacing a petal they were keepable:
Sensei's Divining Top
Gitaxian Probe
Xantid Swarm
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Doomsday
Burning Wish
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Xantid Swarm
Thoughtseize
Lotus Petal
And this one would have been better imo with a fetch over one of the petal
Sensei's Divining Top
Silence
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
So I would like to hear if you would be using the same ratio LP/fetchs?
@ Lemnar: It is very strange for me to read about wanting to cut SDT. For me it is a core card of the deck, and among the ones I prefer to see in my openning.
Sdt >>>>> streth wraith 100% sure
I'm not 100% convinced it's that easy given that SDT costs at least two mana to do anything in this deck and doesn't feed DTT which was the focus of the previous question. I'm not talking about the cards in a vacuum, but with a sole focus on assembling the combo asap.
Given that Miracles players toy with DTT for months and still did not found a way how the card should meaningful work with SDT together, I'm willing to think about a radical path to make DTT work as aggressice combo support, not only because I consider it a perfect (on-color) card to create CA and dig for Doomsday, but also due to the fact that increased speed and Doomsday being a "life-independant" engine, would make Wraith bearable
P.S. I'm known for slaying holy cows ;)
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SDT does wonders fighting against discard and allows a lot of easy and cheap piles to reach 10 storms. SW does not increase your storm count.
Add to this the reapeated look, choose, fetch, SDT is a very important card. The core card is doomsday, not DTT.
SW is really just a very weak probe, which does not allow you to see the opponent's hand, does not increase your storm count. Your goal is not to win T1 (even if it is possible), but to be able to win even against discard & counters.
your goal should be to win in the first 3-4 turns before your opponent establishes his gameplan. Have you read the tournament report above in this thread? Mostly Turn 5-6 combo attempts. I don't know if you want to be there while running combo in Legacy losing pretty likely even to aggro thanks to sketchy 4-color hands and SDT durdling
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I think you overstated a bit :)
It is more turn 3-4 than 5-6, and usually with 1 to 2 Backups.
I don't think it's fair to ignore the games he lost for being too slow. At this point we're not even taking matchups or starting Grips into credit which I urge to do in Order to get an idea of how the speed (resp. the loss of it) affected the matches.
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