All B/R update speculation.

[iamajellydonut]

Either Mind Twist is fine or Lion's Eye Diamond, Entomb, and Natural Order aren't. Take your pick.

I don't necessarily direct this at you, maharis, but that's not the point, and anyone still arguing to this end is the reason babies cry and marshmallows burn.

Lion's Eye Diamond and Natural Order and Entomb and Counterbalance and Delver of Secrets and Mountain Goat all enable the format. They keep it chugging. In many cases, decks would crumble without them and cease to exist. Mind Twist is not like that.

Maybe Mind Twist would wiff in all the stupid scenarios being listed here. But in the event that it does get used, it wouldn't be in something new. It wouldn't help the grass to grow and the format to flourish. It wouldn't add decks to the relevant format.

There is no reason for it to be unbanned other than a sentimental principle of all that can be unbanned must be. And Wizards clearly does not operate under that principle.

[maharis]

I don't necessarily direct this at you, maharis, but that's not the point, and anyone still arguing to this end is the reason babies cry.

Lion's Eye Diamond and Natural Order and Entomb and Counterbalance and Delver of Secrets and Mountain Goat all enable the format. They keep it chugging. In many cases, decks would crumble without them and cease to exist. Mind Twist is not like that.

Maybe Mind Twist would wiff in all the stupid scenarios being listed here. But in the event that it does get used, it wouldn't be in something new. It wouldn't help the grass to grow and the format to flourish. It wouldn't add decks to the relevant format.

There is no reason for it to be unbanned other than a sentimental principle that all that can be unbanned must be. And Wizards clearly does not operate under that principle.

I was hoping when I saw you responded that you were going to back me up that Rock doesn't want random rituals and twists in the deck, ha.

I guess I just don't see what good it is to have a completely innocuous card on the banlist other than to frustrate people who do want to try an off-the-wall deck like turbo twist or Bx Cloudpost.

This is an interesting thread, specifically the points about Land Tax:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...lls-and-Entomb

One could've made many of the same points about Tax as are about Twist (too much uncertainty, not fun to play against, probably won't do anything positive anyway), and in the end, we see what happened (fat load of nothing). But at least if someone wants to break out Parfait, they can. That's what the Legacy banned list should be about, as opposed to in Modern where certain strategies are deliberately held down/neutered in the name of fun. And the same is true of Vise and Earthcraft and possibly even Survival and Hermit Druid. There are memory issues here that are coloring how these cards are viewed, out of the context of current Legacy, and as Legacy continues to coalesce around a shell of outsized strength the least Wizards could do is attempt to shake things up.

[iamajellydonut]

I was hoping when I saw you responded that you were going to back me up that Rock doesn't want random rituals and twists in the deck, ha.

I didn't back you up because you clearly don't understand how value works. B^)

But no, seriously, I am on the bandwagon of "unban everything that can be unbanned for the sake of it", but I also see why Wizards hasn't. Yes, thanks to the irrelevant unbanning of Land Tax we can now play Parfait. Thanks to the irrelevant unbanning of Worldgorger Dragon we can play Dragon Combo. Thanks to the irrelevant unbanning of Time Spiral we can now play a less shitty version of High Tide. But at least when someone brings one of those dated pieces of crap to the table, they're bringing something relatively fresh. No one has thought of anything "fresh" for Mind Twist. It'd basically just be an asshole if it did anything, and Wizards clearly doesn't believe that fantastic potential gain is worth unbanning Mind Twist.

An arbitrary decision has to be made somewhere with regards to the ban list. There's no flowchart or Idiot's Guide to Bannings on how a card qualifies for banning. The same arguments we're making now can be applied to dozens of cards that clearly need to be on the banned list. But for some reason one is degenerate and should remain banned while the other should removed from the list in the spirit of freedom. Until further notice, Wizards has decided that Black Vice and Mind Twist are where the line is drawn. If that's the price I have to pay to continue enjoying my Legacy uninhibited of any bullshit that Modern or even Vintage faces, I think I'm ok.

[FoolofaTook]

An arbitrary decision has to be made somewhere with regards to the ban list. There's no flowchart or Idiot's Guide to Bannings on how a card qualifies for banning. The same arguments we're making now can be applied to dozens of cards that clearly need to be on the banned list. But for some reason one is degenerate and should remain banned while the other should removed from the list in the spirit of freedom. Until further notice, Wizards has decided that Black Vice and Mind Twist are where the line is drawn. If that's the price I have to pay to continue enjoying my Legacy uninhibited of any bullshit that Modern or even Vintage faces, I think I'm ok.

This is a great point. We've got a blue meta now because there are so many cards that are impossible to do anything but randomly interact with if you can't say no to them with a counter spell of some sort or take them with a fast discard spell. They can be easily cast by turn 3 and in many cases before that. The need for counter spells or a very fast win-con yourself then makes all the blue cantrips essential.

It's really a very screwed up paradigm and for Legacy the problem revolves around not enough bannings, not too many.

Counter spells aren't a bad effect unless they exist in 50%+ of all effective lists, which they do at this point. Cantrips are terrible. They allow most of the truly broken things to function on other than a random basis and they make 95% of the attempts to play a thick value list outside of blue ineffective. If everybody had access to effective cantrips outside of blue the problem would be lessened somewhat but only blue and a small scattering of other lists have access to the filtering necessary to survive in a bomb-laden meta. Hence, the blue meta.

[Finn]

Complete bullshit. Rest was tl;dr more "I never have cards in hand when I have 5 mana". And no one is concerned with how much mana you have when theyre twisting you, so.

Thanks for the effective counterpoint there, chief. You really elaborated on the weakness of my position. The "I did not read" part makes a particularly strong point.

[dte]

Twist sucks if your opponent already has a developed board state, The only decks that could pull off a large twist before their opponent has one are not likely to play it once they either kill themselves (Storm does not want to waste the rituals on a non-combo turn) or have better things to do with the mana (elves wants NO or GSZ if they have that much mana) making twist a wasted slot in those decks

As an elf player, I disagree. If I have 4-5 manas and GSZ/NO, I would like to have Mind Twist too. I f I do not have them, I'm very happy to have Mind Twist. They would not compete for the same slots (except maybe the 4th NO).
You know, 66% of the decks in legacy play 4 FoW. Against them, you play MT => they play FoW. Next turn GSZ/NO for the win. They do not have FoW? You won. Again, this card would makes elf really really good.

note that I would be very happy if the card get unbanned, as my favourite deck will improve a lot.

[nedleeds]

As an elf player, I disagree. If I have 4-5 manas and GSZ/NO, I would like to have Mind Twist too. I f I do not have them, I'm very happy to have Mind Twist. They would not compete for the same slots (except maybe the 4th NO).
You know, 66% of the decks in legacy play 4 FoW. Against them, you play MT => they play FoW. Next turn GSZ/NO for the win. They do not have FoW? You won. Again, this card would makes elf really really good.

note that I would be very happy if the card get unbanned, as my favourite deck will improve a lot.

Are you actually unaware that Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, or even Coercion and City of Solitude exist or are you on peyote? How does your absurd scenario change with a Thoughtseize in your hand? If you are saying the use case for Mind Twist is to clear the path for your broken elf spell (big GSZ, NO, or rawdog hoofderp) then many spells and permanents do that worlds better. Which by the way you can play turn one to clear removal or a counterspell. Mind Twist doesn't do shit against a control player (of which miracles is the only remaining control deck in legacy) floating a Terminus. In your world, Silence, City of Solitude or Dosan the Falling leaf are better.

[dte]

Thanks for the peyote, absurde and to kindly remind me of some long-forgotten cards.

But if they are indeed powerfull (I usually play 6 to 7 seize/cabal in elf SB), they do not have the same effect. If you read what I wrote, I said that without GSZ/NO you are happy to have a MT (if they have FoW or not).
What do I do here with my cabal?

Discarding 3-4 cards is better than one.

And cabal & seize are not as good against FoW + StP/toxic deluge for exemple. I usually do not board in targeted discard against non-combo deck. Exceptions are only seize vs miracle when I'm OTP, and sometimes 1 seize vs shardless (if low-waste build).

MT would be a bomb against control and combo. As we do not care much about aggro decks, that would be good.
Additionnaly, MT does not care about cage, which is the second most played SB card (37% of the decks, avg 1.5), neither about Containment Priest (in the top 10 most played SB card, 19.3 % of the deck, avg 1.7 copies), or even Ethersworn Canonist (12.0 % //1.8). It gives elf another bomb, less easy to disrupt.

Shardless BUG is a quite played control deck too, there is no only miracle. If miracle is hellbent T3/4, I'm OK with him having top & terminus.
City of solitude is a huge nombo with symbiote and quirion. Dosan is a bit better and it is a GSZ target, but is still bad. Wanting to answer miracle with creatures is a strange idea. I believe chants effects were a joke?

[menace13]

Thanks for the effective counterpoint there, chief. You really elaborated on the weakness of my position. The "I did not read" part makes a particularly strong point.

Yeah, right? Was almost like I said I never have 4 cards and 5 mana when I play. ;p

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I know they wont do it but would bazaar of baghdad be safe to unban?

[sjmcc13]

I know they wont do it but would bazaar of baghdad be safe to unban?

No

[Spam]

I know they wont do it but would bazaar of baghdad be safe to unban?

It really depends on how much people would like to play dredge, like a lot.))))

[Richard Cheese]

Hey not to ruin the party but you guys do realize the announcement was over a week ago right?

[Lemnear]

Hey not to ruin the party but you guys do realize the announcement was over a week ago right?

the joke is: the procedure repeats every 3 months

[Meekrab]

Maybe Mind Twist would wiff in all the stupid scenarios being listed here. But in the event that it does get used, it wouldn't be in something new.

I find this hard to believe because I'm having trouble coming up with a deck that badly wants double Hymn for 5.

[Richard Cheese]

the joke is: the procedure repeats every 3 months

This thread is the Mr. Bones' Wild Ride of internet arguments.

[Amon Amarth]

This thread is the Mr. Bones' Wild Ride of internet arguments.

"I want to get off Mr. Bones' Wild Ride!"

[nedleeds]

32/32 Brainstorms in the Top 8. Different meta, same shit.

It's absurd. The donkeys at WotC put an article up called Top 5 Cards.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...rds-2015-04-19

But fail to list the fact that the format is officially a 56 card minimum deck size.

Brainstorm 32/32 and it's gotten so awful Ponder was 8/8 and only 3 shy of a perfect 32/32.

So congrats, Wizards with your inept management of the banned list we have a 52 card format.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing that's disturbing is the lack of respect for one of their most important formats. This is primarily because they've identified Modern as the format they want to support moving forward and they'd be very happy if Legacy dwindled to Vintage numbers while Modern grew to Legacy numbers. Somehow I don't think that's what's going to happen.

[nedleeds]

One key to the continued health of Magic is diversity. It is vitally important to ensure that there are multiple competitive decks for the tournament player to choose from. Why? If there were only a single viable deck to play, tournaments would quickly stagnate as players were forced to either play that deck or a deck built specifically to beat it. In addition, different players enjoy playing different types of decks. If there are plenty of viable options to play, there will be more players at more tournaments.

To help maintain the diversity and health of the Magic tournament environment, a system of banned and restricted lists has been developed. These lists are made up of cards that are either not allowed at all, or allowed only in a very limited manner.

It's absurd. We are going to get a double 32/32 one week with Brainstorm and Ponder. Probe is also ridiculous and is getting close to 60% saturation. It's a good thing that the oppressive speed and versatility of Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise are being contained.

Also worth noting Survival never 32/32'ed anything. Mental Misstep did.