Emrakul, with several Cloudposts in play?Originally Posted by Dissection
I'm really disliking all these RiP's that I'm seeing in the Dig/Snapcaster Miracles lists. You rely on Dig/Snap pretty heavily against most of the Deathrite/Goyf decks, so boarding in the RiPs becomes much worse. I also think Relic is a better card against RUG Delver a lot of the time. Just throwing that out there...
I agree. But the theory is: u board in RIP against rug as the only delver deck. it deals with goose, goyf and they dont have good answers for it. Besides that you use it against pure graveyard decks where it is almost a winoption: dredge, reanimator, lands...
Of course you could overload the decays of bug, but that would force u pretty much to board out digs and snapcasters, nobody does that i believe.
My list is running 2 snap 1 DTT and I'm fine with that while having 2 rip sb
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I've been screwing around with a miracles list w/ myth realized and he seems like a pretty good addition to the deck. You don't really ever turn him into a creature until you establish a cb lock, but once that happens, he blocks goyf, mongoose, bskull, etc like a champ. He also gives the deck the ability to just win in 2-3 turns w/o having to dig super hard to find the entreat. Here's a list I've been testing:
Creatures (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (36)
3 Myth Realized
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
Lands (22)
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
I find the only BUG deck you really want to keep counterbalance in against (and thus probably bring in RIP against to help overload) is Shardless, as it's really the only way we can keep up with their card advantage.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Counterbalance against Shardless isn't good imo, their curve is wonkier (with more 2s, 3s, 4s and 8s), and Shardless Agents to randomly cascade into an abrupt decay
BUG delver I feel it's fine as their curve is more streamlined (with ponder and delvers) making it easier to choke them on resources if/when they start top decking.
Is card advantage the thing we should care about vs Shardless? I mean, I don't think card advantage is the thing we should be focusing on this matchup because our gameplan is basically to deal with their problematic cards and control their board, until we find entreat. Card advantage is not really necessary to execute that gameplan, but honestly, I could be looking at this from an entirely different perspective.
Yes definitely. Taking care of problematic permanents is very important but being able to counter visions and whatever else they shardless up is important as well. We can't plan to win a game where they keep 2-for1-ing us.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Yes, that's what Miracles is all about. That's the reason Miracles players hate Silvan Library and Dark Confidant so much. Shardless has already presented enough problems from multiple angles of attack, CB is the best way to hinder their plans. Say they golgair charm/abrupt decay, that only means your rip/blood moon has better chance of resolving. Even with CB being there most of the match, you will still have to deal with tarpit and Dudes, as well as planeswalkers hiding behind strix.
BUG Delver on the other hand, is much more linear, that's where blanking AD target would actually work.
I agree with you. The deck does backflips just to end up with 2 creatures on board that get eaten by Terminus. Them getting ahead with visions and the like means that they do it again the next turn. I think Counterbalance isn't even very good against that deck on account of their lack of reliance on 1's, let alone the Decays. I personally board in 2 Verdicts, since the chokepoint of their strategy is the number of threats they can pull from their deck. A lot of them will even board in Meddling Mages against you and name Terminus, just to try to kill you off tempo.
Not only will the deck lose as soon as you find Entreat, keeping their board clear allows Jace to be relevant. Not letting them get any positional advantage on you seems the most important thing. At least, that's how I play the matchup.
Does anyone know where I can find Joe Lossett's current list?
The list I saw him play a few days ago
Miracles Lossett
75 cards, 15 sideboard
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
22 lands
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Vendilion Clique
6 creatures
1 Spell Snare
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dig Through Time
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
32 other spells
Sideboard
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Arid Mesa
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
15 sideboard cards
Thanks!
I'm also on the no Counterbalance side of things. The only thing we really need to worry about against Shardless is the A.V, and the occassional planeswalker. their clock is not particular quick, and gives us plenty of time to find entreat. They are also rather light on Counterspells, usually only 4xFOW, so it's very easy to push an entreat or Jace through.
to be honest, i think even RIP is better than Counterbalance against BUG. The key to the game IMO, is actually top and red blasts.
There's no such thing as "the only thing" when it comes to Shardless. The deck is known to attack from multiple angles.
1. Raw Card advantage (Hymn, Vision, Cascade)
2. Planeswalkers (jace, lili)
3. Man-land (tarpit)
4. Creature beats
5. DRS, which attack your graveyards, direct life loss, pretty much mini-planeswalker
6. SB hate such as, null rod and silvan library.
Assume you run any numbers of snapcasters and dig, do you really want to play RiP to ruin your chance of utilizing those cards? Because of all the thoughtseize/hymn/lili, it's very possible your disenchant/wear tear/Entreat/Red blast got discarded early, and those cards might be the answers you need. I have once misdirected a hymn such that Shardless player has no hand, but it climbed back with blind Shardless into Vision. It pretty much comes down to making good trades, the ones you really care about is the blue stuff, which can be blasted, and lili ultimate. Everything else your White (and EE) cards can take care of, or you can just take the hit.
I have been testing this deck a lot lately, and I was very frustrated by the RiP anti-synergy against decks like Shardless where our Snapcaster/Dig package is the most important thing in the deck next to Entreat. Because of this, I cut the RiPs for Relics which are better against RUG Delver and allow you to maintain more control over your GY hate when you may want to be Digging in the midgame. Edit: note that I am obviously not boarding in Relics against Shardless.
Shardless is by far the most difficult matchup for Miracles imo, and Miracles would clearly be the best deck in the format if it wasn't for this atrocious matchup that has gained a lot of popularity since the banning of Treasure Cruise. I'm not saying Miracles isn't the best deck, but Shardless is Miracles' Achilles heel. I don't think it's a good idea to keep in Counterbalance and would prefer to blank their Decays. Counterbalance isn't even that good when they have a lot of Planeswalkers and a UB manland that get through it easily. I'd rather have red blasts which are all-around better at dealing with their Visions, Digs, Jaces, and Tar pits. Also I see a lot of people suggesting that Jace is good in this matchup. While there are certainly situations where Jace is a great play, overall the Shardless deck puts a ton of little value creatures onto the board that deal with Jace pretty easily. Because of this, I think Dig is much better and more important against Shardless, and I'm not going to play an enchantment that shuts off my own Digs.
See, I don't run any Digs, so I have no problem with RIP. Just 2 Snapcasters, and since they will inevitably kill the RIP they're never dead. You can't actually blank Decay, unless you also cut Vendilion Clique, and even then they would get some value off your Snapcasters. I just want to make sure I 2 for 1 them when they cast Decay, and RIP does that.
I also only board in 2 out of 4 Red Blasts. I suppose I'm alone in this, but I'm more scared of getting Wastelanded and/or drawing it dead than I am of Visions resolving. The card only trades well with Ancestral Visions and Force of Will; anywhere else I'm not sure I even want to fetch a Volcanic. I have a mountain that I bring in, which is why I only run 2 copies. I think we're better suited attacking their creature base, not their engine. Mostly when they get me with planeswalkers I got Hymn'd on turn 2, so it's not as if Blasts are going to stop that. I don't feel like they win the fight over Visions unless you get hit by Hymns and Thoughseizes, first.
I also like RIP as a card that leaves your hand quickly. I prefer to just play of Top in that matchup.
I play a single Relic as graveyard hate these days, which is definitely a not to 7 Graveyard dependant cards. Against Shardless, I have 9 raw card advantage engines (all main deck), with the extra Keranos coming in from the board as a pseudo Jace. If you get it through a Force, you should be winning the game very quickly. (Well, slowly, but they can't stop you.) We have a superior suite of countermagic and general interaction in game two, as we have triple Counterspell. I usually look at:
-4 Balance
-3 Force
+2 REB
+1 Counterspell
+3 Clique
+1 Keranos
Other things can be looked into as you see fit (Council's Judgment, extra REB). I used to have Blood Moon, which was a real beating, but I figured I'd try to play it fair. With only a single Entreat as a way of closing out super fast, the game is generally much harder, but you should draw more actual action, and most of the BG decks I play against have multiple Deeds, so it was often very hard to get Angels through, anyway.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
there's a difference between "the key thing" and "the only thing".
and yes, like we both mentioned, most of their threats they have can be blasted away, which makes blasts a "key card to have" against Shardless.
Rest in peace is good because it resets DRS & Gofy, and given that it is the only thing worthy of being abrupt decayed, your RIP is not going to stay in play long. Which brings your SCM back online. even as a Ambush viper, SCM is useful against an active lili, which is why it stays in.
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