[Deck] 12 Post

[Charon]

My worst SCG showing yet. Not only in record, but also in my play.

I lost round 2 to Miracles in 1 game by not attacking with an emrakul.

I lost round 3 to Junk by "hiding" a primeval titan from an inquisition of kozilek thinking thoughtseize and then surgical shuffling my unnecessarily hidden titan away.

Just shame all around.

Was very off my game.



My list was punishing fire in normal u/g. I think the build is very strong atm, and am still tuning it. The only loss I had that I count is my round 5 loss to a Myth Realized pyromancer patriot delver list. Interesting build, some horrific rng and a truly unpleasant opponent who abused the horrible head judge's (the same head judge who I reported for making incorrect calls at GP NJ and knocking me out of Top 8) calls multiple times.

I watched you get stalled by that miracles player. That was BS.

[MGB]

I watched you get stalled by that miracles player. That was BS.

What were the circumstances of this exactly? I have had a problem with slow play in tournaments myself and often it is a Miracles player who is involved. It seems that, if you don't win G1, they try hard to drag the game on, and what can you do other than call a judge and watch for slow play? Did Rock call the guy on slow play or what?

[Charon]

In this case, a judge was there and made some interesting decisions that allowed miracles to drag it out so long that the only possibility was a win for miracles or a draw.

The head judge ruled, so really he had done everything he could.

[winglerw28]

I'm not sure how much I like Force of Will with my list at the moment, so I am also going to test an alternate list:

// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Trinket Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Instants and Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
2 Repeal
3 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sudden Reclamation
1 Moment's Peace

// Artifacts and Enchantments
4 Exploration
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Land
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Vesuva
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith

// Sideboard
3 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karn Liberated
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krosan Grip

Sudden Reclamation feels like a viable Fact or Fiction replacement in this build. Not only is it great with Intuition (think of a pile with Titania/Land/Sudden Reclamation or Wurmcoil/Academy Ruins/Sudden Reclamation), but it also puts the cards into your hand as part of the resolution of the spell so it gets around the Eldrazi shuffle trigger. It is almost a tutor in this build, allowing you to just grab whatever land or creature (including Eldrazi) you want.

[TheBoozeCube]

whats not right about that list? it shows 61 main and 14 sideboard

p[layed around with the 61 card version. if the deck doesn't mull to oblivion its nice. i forgot how powerful candles are. and kozelik is better as a draw tool to fuel exploration and other things.

The 61/14 configuration is intentional. I'm effectively just boarding into Tabernacle for game 1. The slight change in probability is outweighed by the game 1 blowouts you get in the matchups where access to Tabernacle matters, and you can just Crop it away if you draw it when it doesn't. Under the new rules, you usually just board down to 60 for games 2/3.


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[Barook]

Under the new rules, you usually just board down to 60 for games 2/3.

Except that's illegal. You can't have more cards in your sideboard than the initial number, while you can increase the number of MD cards.

So 62/13 would be fine, but going 60/15 with an initial 61/14 doesn't work.

[iamajellydonut]

some interesting decisions... THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED

You guys are the worst at giving details.

[TheBoozeCube]

Except that's illegal. You can't have more cards in your sideboard than the initial number, while you can increase the number of MD cards.

So 62/13 would be fine, but going 60/15 with an initial 61/14 doesn't work.

It's perfectly legal. Your initial number no longer matters, so long as your main is always at least 60 and your side no more than 15.


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[MtgVector]

It's perfectly legal. Your initial number no longer matters, so long as your main is always at least 60 and your side no more than 15.


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That's such a simple and elegant solution. I had that same problem myself, but would always do a 61/15 configuration when needed. 61/14 is better since the one or two sb games are better tuned, plus it's equivalent to a 60/15.

Also, ditto on legality. This rule was changed a couple of years ago to minimize unwarranted penalties on smaller sideboards (which are effectively less advantageous).

[Barook]

It's perfectly legal. Your initial number no longer matters, so long as your main is always at least 60 and your side no more than 15.

Oh well

[TimHarding]

What were the circumstances of this exactly? I have had a problem with slow play in tournaments myself and often it is a Miracles player who is involved. It seems that, if you don't win G1, they try hard to drag the game on, and what can you do other than call a judge and watch for slow play? Did Rock call the guy on slow play or what?

At the very first SDT activation that is more than a breaths length, I declare that they aren't playing fast enough. The very next time, I call a judge. They will either watch the match, or see Tundra+Top and give slow play warning. They may even already have a warning or draw on their points total. There's no penalty for calling it, once there's 10 mins left and no judge has been called, there's nothing you can do to stop the bleeding. I greet known slow players in my area with "hi, I'm not going to let you take this to time".

[Zotmaster]

So wingler and I have been brewing. Basically, I gave him a direction and he whipped up the list on the previous page. I love the deck, but we've been trying to look at fundamentally what the deck is and, perhaps more importantly, what it is not. Part of me has felt that Primeval Titan is one of the core problem cards in the deck. The core of the deck has always been built around making land drops, ramping your mana, and summoning big, dumb spaghetti monsters. Titan, though powerful and obviously conducive to the ramp strategy, usually is not that wincon by itself. The wincons are almost always colorless. Sure, there are some matchups where Titan can get there for you, but it is usually more of a means to an end rather than that actual end. Along the same lines, Show and Tell has also felt problematic. In most games, Titan is the optimal Show target, but it still runs into that problem I mentioned above: if I'm resolving a Show, I don't want to be way ahead, I just want to win. Why ramp my lands when I could just play Sneak & Skill and just win the game out of that spot?

Wingler put together the deck on the previous page and I played it tonight. I have to say, it has potential...although leave it to us to take one of the hardest decks to pilot correctly in Legacy and actually make it even more difficult to pilot correctly. Crucible of Worlds does tons of work. Especially combined with Intuition, things get ridiculous. A great pile is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Haven of the Spirit Dragon and either Crucible of Worlds or Titania, Protector of Argoth. Basically, your opponent has the option of giving you Ugin, the card that gets you Ugin, or a card that gets you the card that gets you Ugin.

We're still brewing - and this plan definitely needs some number of Krosan Grip - but I think it's a good idea for all of us to take a closer look at what we're trying to do with the deck at the most basic level. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a slightly inferior version of a bunch of different decks, and although I'm having fun, I still think we have other avenues to explore.

[Charon]

You guys are the worst at giving details.

I was just a watcher, I would rather let the person who had it happen to them give the details than my second hand account.

[apple713]

Wingler put together the deck on the previous page and I played it tonight. I have to say, it has potential...although leave it to us to take one of the hardest decks to pilot correctly in Legacy and actually make it even more difficult to pilot correctly. Crucible of Worlds does tons of work. Especially combined with Intuition, things get ridiculous. A great pile is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Haven of the Spirit Dragon and either Crucible of Worlds or Titania, Protector of Argoth. Basically, your opponent has the option of giving you Ugin, the card that gets you Ugin, or a card that gets you the card that gets you Ugin.

We're still brewing - and this plan definitely needs some number of Krosan Grip - but I think it's a good idea for all of us to take a closer look at what we're trying to do with the deck at the most basic level. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a slightly inferior version of a bunch of different decks, and although I'm having fun, I still think we have other avenues to explore.

ok so at this point you are just increasing the end game consistency. The issue still lies in getting to that point quicker. Titan accomplishes that. Although titan does not directly win the game, consider how many games you lose after resolving 1? although I don't have the same experience you do, resolving a titan is almost equatable to winning.

a the point where you are using haven to get back Ugin, you create a seemingly less efficient way to win than through emrakul. Of course its just a different strategy but only really great when you have a good amount of time to recur it.

Also, i played someone else's version of a deck recently that used the full 12post land set, and surprisingly I miss how powerful having those extra vesuva's are. It doesn't seem like it on its face but a vesuva that gains you 3 life, is in many cases a time walk, especially when the opponent is just hitting you with a delver. Furthermore, as the number increases you get more value. Of course this is not always the case because sometimes a turn's worth of threats are greater than 3 life per turn but I think that it's a good way of thinking about the excess lands (as creating miniature time walks) With something that allows you to play more lands every turn like exploration, and something that allows you to draw cards (sylvan library, kozelik) you really turn into a ramping machine

[winglerw28]

ok so at this point you are just increasing the end game consistency. The issue still lies in getting to that point quicker. Titan accomplishes that. Although titan does not directly win the game, consider how many games you lose after resolving 1? although I don't have the same experience you do, resolving a titan is almost equatable to winning.

a the point where you are using haven to get back Ugin, you create a seemingly less efficient way to win than through emrakul. Of course its just a different strategy but only really great when you have a good amount of time to recur it.

Also, i played someone else's version of a deck recently that used the full 12post land set, and surprisingly I miss how powerful having those extra vesuva's are. It doesn't seem like it on its face but a vesuva that gains you 3 life, is in many cases a time walk, especially when the opponent is just hitting you with a delver. Furthermore, as the number increases you get more value. Of course this is not always the case because sometimes a turn's worth of threats are greater than 3 life per turn but I think that it's a good way of thinking about the excess lands (as creating miniature time walks) With something that allows you to play more lands every turn like exploration, and something that allows you to draw cards (sylvan library, kozelik) you really turn into a ramping machine

I think you severely underestimate the power of Exploration. Testing with Zot yesterday, there were several times where I cast Kozilek or Ulamog far sooner than if I had a Primeval Titan. In addition, it allows you to actually do things when your main game plan is disrupted due to lowered amount of dead draws when you have a rough early game. My list doesn't improve the end game - it improves the early game. I have lost many games because I needed to crutch on Show and Tell or Primeval Titan. While they are powerful cards in their own right and win many games on accident, they aren't necessarily the end-all be-all and are certainly disruptive and have their downsides. Looks at TheBoozeCube's list - it has enjoyed quite a bit of success for him against real opponents despite having 0 Primeval Titan.

We actually felt the list was odd-feeling because you simply didn't have time to cast Prime Time. It actually would just slow the list down from its game plan. You can still win with Emrakul as well.

[Barook]

I think you severely underestimate the power of Exploration. Testing with Zot yesterday, there were several times where I cast Kozilek or Ulamog far sooner than if I had a Primeval Titan. In addition, it allows you to actually do things when your main game plan is disrupted due to lowered amount of dead draws when you have a rough early game. My list doesn't improve the end game - it improves the early game. I have lost many games because I needed to crutch on Show and Tell or Primeval Titan. While they are powerful cards in their own right and win many games on accident, they aren't necessarily the end-all be-all and are certainly disruptive and have their downsides. Looks at TheBoozeCube's list - it has enjoyed quite a bit of success for him against real opponents despite having 0 Primeval Titan.

We actually felt the list was odd-feeling because you simply didn't have time to cast Prime Time. It actually would just slow the list down from its game plan. You can still win with Emrakul as well.

How would Courser of Kruphix or Oracle of Mul Daya work in the Exploration build?

[TimHarding]

ok so at this point you are just increasing the end game consistency. The issue still lies in getting to that point quicker. Titan accomplishes that. Although titan does not directly win the game, consider how many games you lose after resolving 1? although I don't have the same experience you do, resolving a titan is almost equatable to winning.

Yes, but do not forget Titan is a lot more than just a stepping stone to get to Emrakul and winning. He most often the point you must reach to stay alive. Don't forget that he is also 4 additional copies of (double) crop rotation. Sticking Titan can get you Cloudposts, but if you are actually in that luxurious position and in goldfish mode, you were winning that game anyway. The real power is putting 6 toughness in the way of their goyf, gaining 6 off of STP, glimmer-walking, bogging the graveyard deck, getting Karakas to stabilize for good against sneak, getting chasm to not get killed by the cratehoof swing-back (or any swing back). I think he's central to the strategy, and instead of replacing him I'd love to see him work WITH exploration. That sounds turbo as fuck to me.

[winglerw28]

Yes, but do not forget Titan is a lot more than just a stepping stone to get to Emrakul and winning. He most often the point you must reach to stay alive. Don't forget that he is also 4 additional copies of (double) crop rotation. Sticking Titan can get you Cloudposts, but if you are actually in that luxurious position and in goldfish mode, you were winning that game anyway. The real power is putting 6 toughness in the way of their goyf, gaining 6 off of STP, glimmer-walking, bogging the graveyard deck, getting Karakas to stabilize for good against sneak, getting chasm to not get killed by the cratehoof swing-back (or any swing back). I think he's central to the strategy, and instead of replacing him I'd love to see him work WITH exploration. That sounds turbo as fuck to me.

It is very turbo, but the texture of this build is a lot different... I'd try TheBoozeCube's build to get an idea of what the deck feels like. It is much more lands-esque, but definitely still a post deck. You have enough velocity to go over the top of smaller decks before their Goyf even matters (as in, I cast a turn 3 Kozilek recently in testing...). Maze + Candel and Crucible + Glacial Chasm are very powerful tools that let you play around their cards very fluidly and with little care about non-graveyard hate. I am certainly not trying to argue that Primeval Titan is an incorrect or underpowered choice - I simply don't like it in context of the 75 I'm currently running. For reference, this is the list I'm testing next Tuesday at my local and this week with Zot and other friends:

// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Trinket Mage

// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Instants and Sorceries
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Cropt Rotation
3 Intuition
1 Sudden Reclamation

// Artifacts and Enchantments
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Land
3 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog

// Sideboard
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip

Side note: I just noticed this, and I find it humorous because I'm lame like this - to edit my decklist I have to click 'edit post'. :D

[Barook]

@winglerw28: Wouldn't be Life from the Loam be a better Intuition target? Or is "CoW + Ruins + card you actually want" so much better?

[winglerw28]

@winglerw28: Wouldn't be Life from the Loam be a better Intuition target? Or is "CoW + Ruins + card you actually want" so much better?

I tried Life from the Loam and it requires really awkward things to happen like cutting Eldrazi or making complex lines for the sake of being cool. As much as I would LOVE Loam in this deck, I can't seem to make it work without sacrificing the integrity of the deck. Sudden Reclamation is somewhat a concession to this as it allows me to get back Eldrazi in response to them going to the yard. Here are some of the Intuition lines:

Crucible + Ruins + Sudden Reclamation or Titania allows for Crucible to be set up.
Crucible or Titania + Haven of the Spirit Dragon + Ugin allows for you to set up an inevitable Ugin.
Crucible or Titania + Academy Ruins + Artifact gives you an artifact tutor.
Eye + Eldrazi + Eldrazi allows you to guarantee an Eldrazi.
Land + Land or Creature + Sudden Reclamation allows you a guaranteed tutor with card advantage to back it up.

There are a ton of lines, but those are some of the more common ones.

EDIT: To clarify, Crucible of Worlds is better than Loam but not because Loam is bad - they do different things. Loam is actually great WITH Crucible since you have Ruins, Eye of Ugin, and Academy Ruins, but the deck can't fit both and Loam is far more awkward with Eldrazis.