Miracle Control

[presquepartout]

One quick question: i saw people running monastery mentors in sideboard of miracles, vs. which matchup it is supposed to sideboard it in? does anybody has some experience on that?, i'm having a hard time figuring this out

it's good post board against the midrange decks that sideboard out all of their removal, and could be fine against shardless if you're going for the overwhelm decay plan. mentor is also nice against some combo decks, as it usually will kill much quicker than EtA, but i probably wouldn't be bringing it there.

[sherko7]

Any one have a stock list I can use to get into the archetype? Thanks!

[twndomn]

Any one have a stock list I can use to get into the archetype? Thanks!

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...re-Cruise.html

list is at the end, the article also justifies the reasoning behind the numbers and the card choices.

[sherko7]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...re-Cruise.html

list is at the end, the article also justifies the reasoning behind the numbers and the card choices.

You're the man, bro. Thanks!

I'm torn between building this or ANT. I used to play Delver a lot (all forms) and some Dredge a few years back before I quit and sold everything. I wish to play again, but am reluctant about picking up Delver again due to <reasons>. Thoughts? Which deck performs better at an open meta. I want a deck that I'd only need to tune every now and then and still be able to play competitively.

[CutthroatCasual]

I really like this stock list, and used this as my starting point to tweak to my local meta: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=79292

I personally am not a big fan of DTT at all in Miracles, seeing as it turns us into a more proactive deck than I think it should be.

[BioEBear]

Howdy control brethren. First time posting on MTGTS, but a long-time lurker.

I went to my first legacy tourney this weekend with Miracles in hand (list mirrors Schonegger's most current, but with +1 Karakas/DTT, -1 Snap/Ponder and a few different SB choices [+2 RIP, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 W/T, -1 REB, -1 Relic, -1 Clique, -1 Disenchant]), and managed to reach the Top 8 as X-1. That said, I ran into two opponents that against whom I did not know how to board. Any advice on these MUs?

First opponent was on Infect, which I know isn't a great matchup in the first place. He beats me game 1 on turn 3 with invigorate + berserk with double counter backup. Alas. I board out 1 JTMS, 1 Council's, 1 Entreat, 2 Ponder, and 1 FoW and boarded in 1 Pyroblast, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE, 2 Clique, and 1 W/T. Game 2 I have to mull, but stop his onslaught with Swords, Snap Swords, EE and a timely Pithing Needle on Inkmoth. But he eventually manages to get a full grip and pushes through a Glistener with two pump spells backed up by 3 different counters. Is this MU generally this rough, and should I have boarded any differently (e.g., boarding in Flusterstorms in lieu of say another Entreat and JTMS)?

Second opponent, who I was matched up against in the top 8, was on a classic Jund list (he eventually won the whole thing). All three games he proceeded with T1 Deathrite (which I plowed every time), followed by a T2 Dark Confidant into T3 Liliana. Rough. Figuring he would board in hate like Choke, Needle, etc. I board out 4x Counterbalance, 2x FoW, and 1x JTMS for 1x EE, 1x W/T, 2x RIP, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Entreat, and 1x Counterspell to try and go over the top with the angel plan. This plan works game 2 after a Liliana ultimate, but game three he baits me with a Lilly and resolves Choke next turn after wasting my Karakas. Again, what's the plan against these extreme hate cards, and should I have just boarded out all 3 Jaces to keep in more FoWs? Also, since I was already bringing in RIP (a target for both Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm), should I have just tried to overload him with permanent hate (e.g., Needle + CB)?

Any and all advice appreciated!

[twndomn]

You're the man, bro. Thanks!

I'm torn between building this or ANT. I used to play Delver a lot (all forms) and some Dredge a few years back before I quit and sold everything. I wish to play again, but am reluctant about picking up Delver again due to <reasons>. Thoughts? Which deck performs better at an open meta. I want a deck that I'd only need to tune every now and then and still be able to play competitively.

The purpose of this thread is Not to convince you to play Miracles.

This thread is for Miracles players to discuss the archtype, SB choices, and match-up plans. You should post that question in other places. With that said, Miracles, or permission control in general, is not for everyone. I see many Miracles newbies picking up the deck, and keep getting draws while they are at the learning curve, then lose patience with the deck. At the end of the day, play the deck that's best suited for you and just stick to it by playing it well.

First opponent was on Infect, which I know isn't a great matchup in the first place. He beats me game 1 on turn 3 with invigorate + berserk with double counter backup. Alas. I board out 1 JTMS, 1 Council's, 1 Entreat, 2 Ponder, and 1 FoW and boarded in 1 Pyroblast, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE, 2 Clique, and 1 W/T. Game 2 I have to mull, but stop his onslaught with Swords, Snap Swords, EE and a timely Pithing Needle on Inkmoth. But he eventually manages to get a full grip and pushes through a Glistener with two pump spells backed up by 3 different counters. Is this MU generally this rough, and should I have boarded any differently (e.g., boarding in Flusterstorms in lieu of say another Entreat and JTMS)?

Second opponent, who I was matched up against in the top 8, was on a classic Jund list (he eventually won the whole thing). All three games he proceeded with T1 Deathrite (which I plowed every time), followed by a T2 Dark Confidant into T3 Liliana. Rough. Figuring he would board in hate like Choke, Needle, etc. I board out 4x Counterbalance, 2x FoW, and 1x JTMS for 1x EE, 1x W/T, 2x RIP, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Entreat, and 1x Counterspell to try and go over the top with the angel plan. This plan works game 2 after a Liliana ultimate, but game three he baits me with a Lilly and resolves Choke next turn after wasting my Karakas. Again, what's the plan against these extreme hate cards, and should I have just boarded out all 3 Jaces to keep in more FoWs? Also, since I was already bringing in RIP (a target for both Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm), should I have just tried to overload him with permanent hate (e.g., Needle + CB)?

A recent sample for Miracles vs. Infect, SB might be in the discussion.


I am in favor of overloading approach against Jund. In this MU, I would SB out all the FoW, not just 2.

[CutthroatCasual]

Second opponent, who I was matched up against in the top 8, was on a classic Jund list (he eventually won the whole thing). All three games he proceeded with T1 Deathrite (which I plowed every time), followed by a T2 Dark Confidant into T3 Liliana. Rough. Figuring he would board in hate like Choke, Needle, etc. I board out 4x Counterbalance, 2x FoW, and 1x JTMS for 1x EE, 1x W/T, 2x RIP, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Entreat, and 1x Counterspell to try and go over the top with the angel plan. This plan works game 2 after a Liliana ultimate, but game three he baits me with a Lilly and resolves Choke next turn after wasting my Karakas. Again, what's the plan against these extreme hate cards, and should I have just boarded out all 3 Jaces to keep in more FoWs? Also, since I was already bringing in RIP (a target for both Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm), should I have just tried to overload him with permanent hate (e.g., Needle + CB)?

Playing against non-blue decks is my favorite because you know your counterspells are almost guaranteed to resolve. I would never board out FoW, and maybe only 1 CB. Just like he can bait out FoWs with Lili, you can bait out Decays with CB, meaning that's 1 less that he can use on a 4/4 flyer. The FoWs must stay in for cards just like Choke and Lili. Since the Philip list is low on 3 mana spells, I can understand boarding out CBs since you'll almost not hit a Lili or Deed with it, but keeping them forces them to spend a card on it, and once you get better at reading your opponent, knowing the number of cards in hand of a player can tell you a lot about what they could possibly be.

To answer your question, with your list this is how I would board:

-1 CB maybe
-1 Jace
-2 Snap
-2 Dig

+1 W/T
+2 Clique
+1 Counterspell
+1 Entreat
+1 RIP

I get why you would want to board in RIP, but it really does nothing super significant against them. A T1 DRS into eat-stuff-mana-ramp-or-drain-you is just going to happen, I would much rather save the STP for Bob. Then again, if a T1 Shaman goes unchecked, he might very well T2 Lili. And that's why I play 2 Spell Pierce in my list--so I don't have to waste FoWs on strong T1 plays like Chalice on 1 or T2 plays like DRS into Liliana.

[twndomn]

Playing against non-blue decks is my favorite because you know your counterspells are almost guaranteed to resolve. I would never board out FoW, and maybe only 1 CB. Just like he can bait out FoWs with Lili, you can bait out Decays with CB, meaning that's 1 less that he can use on a 4/4 flyer. The FoWs must stay in for cards just like Choke and Lili. Since the Philip list is low on 3 mana spells, I can understand boarding out CBs since you'll almost not hit a Lili or Deed with it, but keeping them forces them to spend a card on it, and once you get better at reading your opponent, knowing the number of cards in hand of a player can tell you a lot about what they could possibly be.

To answer your question, with your list this is how I would board:

I get why you would want to board in RIP, but it really does nothing super significant against them. A T1 DRS into eat-stuff-mana-ramp-or-drain-you is just going to happen, I would much rather save the STP for Bob. Then again, if a T1 Shaman goes unchecked, he might very well T2 Lili. And that's why I play 2 Spell Pierce in my list--so I don't have to waste FoWs on strong T1 plays like Chalice on 1 or T2 plays like DRS into Liliana.

I believe you've confused BUG nic-fit with Jund. BUG Nic-fit and BUG Landstill are the only 2 decks running Pernicious Deed. Jund doesn't run Deed, at least not MD. Did you write RIP does nothing super significant against them? RiP hits DRS, Goyf, and most importantly Punishing Fire. Jund by definition should have PFire and Grove of Burnwillows. At least Loam you can Clique it away, PFire is too difficult for that.

We don't need to guess Schonegger's mind, his philosophy against mid-range decks is all written here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Midrange.html Granted, he didn't specifically address Jund, but a lot of the same logic can be applied when you read the section against Shardless BUG.

[Ancestral]

Playing against non-blue decks is my favorite because you know your counterspells are almost guaranteed to resolve. I would never board out FoW, and maybe only 1 CB. Just like he can bait out FoWs with Lili, you can bait out Decays with CB, meaning that's 1 less that he can use on a 4/4 flyer. The FoWs must stay in for cards just like Choke and Lili. Since the Philip list is low on 3 mana spells, I can understand boarding out CBs since you'll almost not hit a Lili or Deed with it, but keeping them forces them to spend a card on it, and once you get better at reading your opponent, knowing the number of cards in hand of a player can tell you a lot about what they could possibly be.

To answer your question, with your list this is how I would board:

-1 CB maybe
-1 Jace
-2 Snap
-2 Dig

+1 W/T
+2 Clique
+1 Counterspell
+1 Entreat
+1 RIP

I get why you would want to board in RIP, but it really does nothing super significant against them. A T1 DRS into eat-stuff-mana-ramp-or-drain-you is just going to happen, I would much rather save the STP for Bob. Then again, if a T1 Shaman goes unchecked, he might very well T2 Lili. And that's why I play 2 Spell Pierce in my list--so I don't have to waste FoWs on strong T1 plays like Chalice on 1 or T2 plays like DRS into Liliana.

i strongly disagree with you, I always side out Fow against jund, they had all the value cards in the deck and you keep card disadvantage in yours? non sense! fow its another nail in the coffin for you, because the keep discard, and out value you very fast so you board in counterspell because it s agood 1 for 1 trade for you, but forces had to leave! you plan agains jund its just try to keep up early game, and plan a medium entreat EOT to finish of the game sooner as possible.

agains fair decks, probably side out the forces in like 80% of those matchups, you just want to have card advanatge with CB if its possible, if its not, at least you wont 2-1 yourself.

[stnikolauswagne]

I can't help but feel that keeping in Force against a deck that boards a fair share of Red Blasts is not the best idea.

I would also definitely never side in anything less than all Rest in Peaces I have, since it is one of our few ways to fight Punishing Fire (CB with another CB on top is obviously the preferred way but we can't always keep that up). And Fire is definitely something we can just shrug off, I had a Jund opponent grind through a topdecked entreat for 5 with nothing but a Lili on 2 and 2 Punishing Fire, with which he just killed me afterwards.

[TheArchitect]

Playing against non-blue decks is my favorite because you know your counterspells are almost guaranteed to resolve. I would never board out FoW, and maybe only 1 CB. Just like he can bait out FoWs with Lili, you can bait out Decays with CB, meaning that's 1 less that he can use on a 4/4 flyer. The FoWs must stay in for cards just like Choke and Lili. Since the Philip list is low on 3 mana spells, I can understand boarding out CBs since you'll almost not hit a Lili or Deed with it, but keeping them forces them to spend a card on it, and once you get better at reading your opponent, knowing the number of cards in hand of a player can tell you a lot about what they could possibly be.

To answer your question, with your list this is how I would board:

-1 CB maybe
-1 Jace
-2 Snap
-2 Dig

+1 W/T
+2 Clique
+1 Counterspell
+1 Entreat
+1 RIP

I get why you would want to board in RIP, but it really does nothing super significant against them. A T1 DRS into eat-stuff-mana-ramp-or-drain-you is just going to happen, I would much rather save the STP for Bob. Then again, if a T1 Shaman goes unchecked, he might very well T2 Lili. And that's why I play 2 Spell Pierce in my list--so I don't have to waste FoWs on strong T1 plays like Chalice on 1 or T2 plays like DRS into Liliana.

Some of this is not a good approach to the matchup. Definitely, board out your forces, the turn 2 lily and random hate cards like choke or null rod are the only cards you would want to FoW. Jund beats us when they get to 2-for-1 us with bloodbraid, bob and hymns. Hymning ourselves just helps their plan more most of the time. Lily is can timely be dealt with with angles, EE, clique, snap or CJ. Really only a turn 2 lily is an issue because it comes out so fast.

Against most GB decks, I board out CB, but vs jund you need to keep them and its the same reason you need to bring in rest in peace if you have them: punishing fire. Punishing grove is really hard for us to interact with and answers all of our threats except making tons of angels (and it can even kill us in grindy games).

Snap is also awesome against a deck that plays bob, bloodbraid and lily. It doesn't matter that you bring in RIP, dont take snap. If you have either card you are in a good spot. If you have both, your winning so it doesn't matter. Dig you can take out because it is 100% dead with RIP out.

You can take out Jace as well, between, bolts, BBE, red blasts and pfire they have no trouble dealing with a jace.

Choke can be rough, but just try not to get caught by it and assume they have 1-3 of them in the SB so theres a good chance they will see them. Also, EE, CJ, disenchant, counterspell, etc are all good against their hate cards. I also bring in spell pierces for the matchup if I have it. It answers all those hate cards, lily, and hymns, basically all the things you might actually want to FoW.

Bloodmoon (if you play it) and Entreat are the cards that win the game. Jund will usually beat us if the game drags on and we dont find these cards. Sculpt the game to get to the point where finding these cards ends the game.

[BioEBear]

Thanks for the helpful tips, everyone. To tie it altogether, then, would a better strategy against Jund given my list (without any pierces) have been this?

Out: 4x FoW, 3x JTMS, 1x Snappy/Dig (which makes most sense?)
In: 2x RIP, 1x EE, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Counterspell, 1x W/T, 1x Council's Judgment, 1x Entreat?

I'm not a big fan of boarding in Clique against Jund given the amount of removal they play (bolt, punishing fire, and golgari charm -1/-1). But it is very nice against Lilly.

[TheArchitect]

Thanks for the helpful tips, everyone. To tie it altogether, then, would a better strategy against Jund given my list (without any pierces) have been this?

Out: 4x FoW, 3x JTMS, 1x Snappy/Dig (which makes most sense?)
In: 2x RIP, 1x EE, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Counterspell, 1x W/T, 1x Council's Judgment, 1x Entreat?

I'm not a big fan of boarding in Clique against Jund given the amount of removal they play (bolt, punishing fire, and golgari charm -1/-1). But it is very nice against Lilly.

You definitely need clique. He is decent at dealing with lily and punishing fire. Needle on the other hand is not. It only hits lily and only temporarily. Do NOT board out snap. Basically the only time you should ever board out snap is vs some kind of weird 4 RIP, 4 Leyline of the void helm-combo deck. That is litterally the only thing I can imagine where siding out snap is acceptable. Definitely bring in entreat, its the most important card in the matchup.

[Einherjer]

Okay guys,

I'm back and in the mood of answering questions! Please just shoot them at me, if you'd like to know something or if your question hasn't been answered by the, mostly excellent, responses in this thread. :)

Greetings

[exallium]

Okay guys,

I'm back and in the mood of answering questions! Please just shoot them at me, if you'd like to know something or if your question hasn't been answered by the, mostly excellent, responses in this thread. :)

Greetings

Well, I'll start.

I've been going over your midrange notes in the link posted above, and I've got a few questions given that your list has changed since then. Given a sideboard of the following:


3 Flusterstorm
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Red Blasts
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
1 Council's Judgment


We would have the following vs Stoneblade, for instance:

-3 Force
-4 Swords

+3 Blasts
+1 Disenchant
+1 EE
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 ???

I'm wondering if this last slot is best filled with Flusterstorm to help interact with early discard and late forcing through an entreat (as that's our game plan), or Vendilion clique as a one-off to help pressure walkers. I get that clique doesn't deal with TNN or Sword of Fire and Ice, but then neither does flusterstorm.

Same case for Deathblade, actually:

-3 Force
-4 Counterbalance

+3 Blast
+1 Disenchant
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 EE
+1 ???

[Einherjer]

Yo,

talking about "Stoneblade" is always very hard, as it can mean so many different things. Seeing that you differentiate betweent Stone- and Deathblade should be an indication that you see UWR and UWB Stoneblade as one deck, which isn't really true. But alright, let's get to the question already:


Vendilion Clique is a very good card in this MU, more often than not. As long as your Stoneblade opponent does not play Lingering Souls you need to have Vendilion Clique due to several reasons. If they're going for the long game, forcing you to act first it's a good scout-before-I-play-my-bomb-card. If they go for the planeswalkers first it can easily pressure them, and last but not least: It can kill them, as they have no removal left postboard and Jace-bouncing Clique isn't really an option. If they play Lingering Souls however, you need to cut all your Cliques at once, as it's just not fun to have a 3/1 for 1 card when they can make 4 pseudo-removal out of one card. Just don't.

Stoneblade doesn't pressure our lands most of the time. Do not forgot to board out up to two lands (Plains) as long as you're sure that they don't run Wasteland.

Despite the fact that UWR and UWB Blade differ in many respects you board very similarily, assuming there is no Lingering Souls:

-3/4 Force of Will
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Plains
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Disenchant
+1 EE
+1 Council's Judgment
+3 Vendilion Clique
+0/1 Counterspell

Deathblade is a creature deck more than a control one, which often can run Wasteland. So you can't really go to 19, though 20 should be alright. Just bring less Cliques, rest should stay the same.

Hope your question is answered. If not, let me know where I failed to deliver and I'll try again. :)

Greetings

[exallium]

Yo,

talking about "Stoneblade" is always very hard, as it can mean so many different things. Seeing that you differentiate betweent Stone- and Deathblade should be an indication that you see UWR and UWB Stoneblade as one deck, which isn't really true. But alright, let's get to the question already:


Vendilion Clique is a very good card in this MU, more often than not. As long as your Stoneblade opponent does not play Lingering Souls you need to have Vendilion Clique due to several reasons. If they're going for the long game, forcing you to act first it's a good scout-before-I-play-my-bomb-card. If they go for the planeswalkers first it can easily pressure them, and last but not least: It can kill them, as they have no removal left postboard and Jace-bouncing Clique isn't really an option. If they play Lingering Souls however, you need to cut all your Cliques at once, as it's just not fun to have a 3/1 for 1 card when they can make 4 pseudo-removal out of one card. Just don't.

Stoneblade doesn't pressure our lands most of the time. Do not forgot to board out up to two lands (Plains) as long as you're sure that they don't run Wasteland.

Despite the fact that UWR and UWB Blade differ in many respects you board very similarily, assuming there is no Lingering Souls:

-3/4 Force of Will
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Plains
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Disenchant
+1 EE
+1 Council's Judgment
+3 Vendilion Clique
+0/1 Counterspell

Deathblade is a creature deck more than a control one, which often can run Wasteland. So you can't really go to 19, though 20 should be alright. Just bring less Cliques, rest should stay the same.

Hope your question is answered. If not, let me know where I failed to deliver and I'll try again. :)

Greetings

Wonderful! No, this is all good information. I was only referring to the variants discussed in your article, the UWB variants. I'll update my boarding plans accordingly... I've started trying to hammer them out here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

but I've got some rounding out to do. I've been trying to base them off your older article and update them accordingly.

My other question is with respect to Shardless BUG. A lot of people, myself included, have advocated for overloading abrupt decay in the post-board games, and keeping in Counterbalance, as it helps us regain lost value due to the number of 2-for-1's that Shardless posesses. Things like Hymn to Tourach, and cascading into any number of spells.

What are your thoughts on this approach?

[Einherjer]

To make it short: Yes I still stand by boarding out Counterbalances and not bringing RIPs.

I mean you can go an overload on it, if it works for you, then by all means, do that. But it hasn't for me. I have, however, just engaged in a discussion on this very topic with Angelo and Tomas. Let's see. :)

Greetings

[sdematt]

And the Miracles episode, due to be released friday, does cover that.