All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

There's also that little snag where FoW isn't a card you'd always want. You actually see them cut from decks completely in some metas and boarded out in many matchups. This never, ever happens with Brainstorm.

[nedleeds]

If I may ask Nedleeds, from your point of view, why does Force get a pass and Brainstorm does not while both cards fit into the quote from WotC your posting. What is the divide for you?

Well, firstly it's usage is less than Brainstorm. It 28/32'ed. Second if the top 8 wasn't filled with 2 card combo and storm combo hypercharged with Brainstorm you might not need Force of Will. Let's say I was playing a generic U/w/b control deck. There isn't much in a tempo oriented creature deck for example that I have to Mind Rot and Zap myself to prevent on the draw, I might consider Force of Willing let's say Aether Vial if I had no means to quickly remove it. I'm unlikely to Force a Delver if I have removal in hand.

Force of Will requires a reasonable commitment to blue, it costs 2 cards and a life. I think it's a fantastic card, and it allows for very powerful strategies, most notably it allows you to tap out to advance your game plan and make up for the card loss because your opponent has tapped out and not resolved something that would have possibly advanced their board or plan.

Force of Will is a top 5 legacy playable but I feel like not every needs it or wants it. It also serves as a bit of a handbreak that keeps a slew of other cards from being banned, notably cards that lead to turn zero combo. Force of Will has sufficient main deck utility and is consistent (especially with the help of Brainstorm) enough that we don't have Goblin Charbelcher at 50% usage rate.

So back to usage rate, Brainstorm is played in the best performing representation of every classic archtype. To me and many others, that is absolutely absurd and flies directly in the face of the WotC statement above

- card density combo (storm)
- two card combo (omniderp, sneakandchimp)
- control (miracles)
- aggro / aggro control (rug, bur, bug)

Finally Force of Will makes mulligan decisions difficult, where as Brainstorm makes mulligans much easier.

[Zombie]

To pro-Brainstorm guys who think banning Survival is OK: Why is it that everyone cantripping like madmen is OK but everyone cycling like madmen is not?

[death]

Because Enlightened Tutor + Survival/LED in most cases is lethal. Brainstorm without fetch up you brick two consecutive turns.

[wonderPreaux]

To pro-Brainstorm guys who think banning Survival is OK: Why is it that everyone cantripping like madmen is OK but everyone cycling like madmen is not?

Binning creatures for GY combos and guranteeing your search is way different than seeing a few extra cards. What, i suppose, "anti-brainstorm" people tend to forget is that brainstorm just lets you see the top 3, its not ancestral or demonic tutor or any of the other ridiculous comparisons. I've brainstormed into 3 non-fetches, i've had opponents fail to find FoW against me, etc. Brainstorm gives you a chance to fix or assemble a hand, but it can miss; thats way different than sinking a single permanent and having your entire combo guranteed tutored up within 2 activations

[LOLWut]

If Survival or Lion's Eye Diamond had 100% usage in a GP top 8, it would mean that the top 8 consisted entirely of the same archetype. The same cannot be said of Brainstorm.

Doesn't matter. If it was 3 Storm decks, 3 Arrogant Wurm Aggro decks and 2 Dredge decks LED should be banned according to the text below that you (and WotC themselves) seem to want to ignore.

WotC on Banned Cards:

Cards are usually banned from play if they enable a deck or play style that heavily skews the play environment. What does that mean? If the card were legal, a competitive player either must be playing it, or must be specifically targeting it with his or her own strategies.

Some cards are banned because they have proven to simply be too powerful in their respective format. While hundreds of hours are spent rigorously playtesting sets before their release, the complexity of Magic makes it nearly impossible to accurately predict all the ways the new cards interact with older ones.

No, according to the text, it shouldn't. What, pray, is the Brainstorm "deck or play style"?

[JDK]

To pro-Brainstorm guys who think banning Survival is OK: Why is it that everyone cantripping like madmen is OK but everyone cycling like madmen is not?

Cycling != tutoring, or did I miss something?

[chris_acheson]

Force of Will is a top 5 legacy playable but I feel like not every needs it or wants it. It also serves as a bit of a handbreak that keeps a slew of other cards from being banned, notably cards that lead to turn zero combo. Force of Will has sufficient main deck utility and is consistent (especially with the help of Brainstorm) enough that we don't have Goblin Charbelcher at 50% usage rate.

Expanding on this, Force of Will is unlikely to achieve or maintain 100% saturation because a high density of FoW decks makes non-FoW decks more viable. If everyone else is playing decks with FoW, I'm going to feel a lot more comfortable playing a deck that gets wrecked by Belcher style all-in fast combo. There's going to be fewer fast combo decks in the first place, and I'm going to be more likely to dodge the ones that are there if I win my early matches.

Even if you're playing blue, dropping FoW against a field that's saturated with it can be advantageous. Things like Daze, Spell Pierce, Dispel, and just plain old removal become much better, as they don't force you to 2-for-1 yourself, and you're less likely to need Force in the first place.

[nedleeds]

So are you trying to argue that banning Brainstorm would make the format healthier/more fun/more diverse/more interesting or are you simply trying to hold wizards accountable for some kind of "Simon Says: Ban this card"

If it's the latter case do you also support the reserved list? I want things to happen for the benefit of the game, not because 'WotC says this'.

I'm saying Legacy isn't Vintage. It shouldn't be burdened with non basic land cards you must play. It shouldn't be a 56 or 52 card format, which results show it clearly is and has been.

If the card were legal, a competitive player either must be playing it, or must be specifically targeting it with his or her own strategies.

Clearly it would help diversity simply because we'd have a 60 card format. Blue would likely still dominate, and if a year down the road Ponder is a 32/32 in a major event then they should look at that. Just like if Necro was legal there is a strong chance you'd see a 32/32 showing for Necro. Just like if Survival was a 32/32 they should look at Survival. Strangely it wasn't, holding one random common to a different standard is absurd. It's not simon says, it's a clear rational directive as stated above in their words, you are playing this CARD as a competitive player or you are forced to target that card. Even more alarming is WotC has tried to print hate for draw / cantrips (SotL, Notion Thief, various tax / rule of law effects) but the benefit of the 56 or 52 card is still stronger than the hate they've printed.

Or, try unbanning some cards with text see if any of them dent Brainstorms 100% saturation. Metalworker didn't, Monolith didn't, Land Tax didn't, Dragon didn't.

I am not in favor of the reserved list, especially the 'Negator Rule' which closed the prior loophole they had to produce foils for promo or limited print run purposes.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm just glad no one seems to be calling for the banning of Dig Through Time. Dig Through Time is a very interesting card, and I like where the format is right now with Dig in a lot of the decks. Talk about banning Brainstorm all you want though, cause it ain't gonna happen haha.

[death]

Or maybe Brainstorm is just popular to the Japanese. I noticed this since I followed AMC from the beginning. I don't agree that Metalworker, Thalia, SotL etc. are weaker strategies. Opting to play a Brainstorm.dec is entirely player preference. The format is fine.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Or maybe Brainstorm is just popular to the Japanese. I noticed this since I followed AMC from the beginning. I don't agree that Metalworker, Thalia, SotL etc. are weaker strategies. Opting to play a Brainstorm.dec is entirely player preference. The format is fine.

Agreed. Honestly Death and Taxes is the worst matchup for many of the Brainstorm decks I play in tournaments. And Elves ravages Delver. The format is great IMO.

[Zombie]

Or maybe Brainstorm is just popular to the Japanese. I noticed this since I followed AMC from the beginning. I don't agree that Metalworker, Thalia, SotL etc. are weaker strategies. Opting to play a Brainstorm.dec is entirely player preference. The format is fine.

Lovely.

Clearly, everyone just loved Affinity too, right? Survival and Flash weren't problems either, people just liked them. Folks playing Cawblade in Standard were just fans of the deck (probably true actually, everyone else had ragequit ages ago), and the list goes on.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Lovely.

Clearly, everyone just loved Affinity too, right? Survival and Flash weren't problems either, people just liked them. Folks playing Cawblade in Standard were just fans of the deck (probably true actually, everyone else had ragequit ages ago), and the list goes on.

Brainstorm is a card, not an archetype. The "I hate Bstorm people" keep acting like all Brainstorm decks are the same. Legacy is the most diverse format in Magic even if three quarters of the top 8 decks play the format-defining cantrip.

[Zombie]

Brainstorm is a card, not an archetype. The "I hate Bstorm people" keep acting like all Brainstorm decks are the same. Legacy is the most diverse format in Magic even if three quarters of the top 8 decks play the format-defining cantrip.

Doesn't matter one whit because the original claim was that people play it because they just happen to like it. Same damn thing with broken decks or broken cards: People don't end up playing cards in 28/32 or 32/32 concentrations routinely purely as a matter of taste. It just doesn't happen. Those kinds of numbers with that kind of consistency happen only when something is head and shoulders above whatever else sees play. Brainstorm is. It doesn't narrow deckbuilding as much as some other broken cards might - see Affinity for an extreme example, Survival for a less extreme but narrower one - but that is utterly irrelevant to the so strong, must play it argument. Doesn't fucking matter.

You know what happens when something is truly a matter of taste? Things diversify. They diversify because taste becomes a bigger factor in what you play than the raw broken power of your game pieces. If some pieces are too strong, they get played. Simple as that. Brainstorm is.

[Megadeus]

The problem at this point is like nedleeds has said. It's a 56 card format for the most part. You are simply gimping yourself if you aren't playing brainstorm, not because of its raw power level, but because of its ability to reduce variance.

[FoolofaTook]

The problem at this point is like nedleeds has said. It's a 56 card format for the most part. You are simply gimping yourself if you aren't playing brainstorm, not because of its raw power level, but because of its ability to reduce variance.

The reduction in variance is very small but it's enough to make the truly competitive spikes have to play the cantrip shell in most of the lists they create. The majority of the player base follows suit because there is nothing less fun than sitting down opposite a spike who has a 3% variance advantage over you.

People still lose to crappy draws and variance all the time but the blue shell gives you enough of an advantage that you're making a mistake if you're not playing it.

Lam Phan's Ur Landstill list was a triumph because it only played Brainstorm from the cantrip shell and it only played singleton Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time and it still held together through a silly number of rounds. In the end he lost to variance, drawing lands and counters out of his pile when he needed removal instead.

[nedleeds]

Lovely.

Clearly, everyone just loved Affinity too, right? Survival and Flash weren't problems either, people just liked them. Folks playing Cawblade in Standard were just fans of the deck (probably true actually, everyone else had ragequit ages ago), and the list goes on.

I loved Necropotence! You could combo with it (trix), play aggro (hymns, knights, bolts) or just grind people into dust with control necro! All different decks too!

I don't hate Brainstorm, it's just not an interesting format anymore once it's reached this point of staleness. I guess if I was a child and this was all new to me and I thought in terms of complete decks served up to me by my favorite internet hero instead of looking at cards in the card pool maybe I'd be fine with a 56 card format, it does make deck building easier.

Another fun fact about GP Kyoto:

There are 17 green cards (including Abrupt Decay in this to be generous) in the top 8
There are 17 Red/pyroblasts in the top 8

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, nice format.

[death]

So Pyros in the sideboard = unhealthy format? Haven't you seen 7x GY hate in SB's before in your life? They're called meta-choices. You go to a GP, you scout, of course pack hate. Let's be realistic.

Here let me help, 56 - 20 lands = 36. You should call it a 36-card format, are you drunk?

[Megadeus]

That's a ridiculous statement. Storm decks run 12-16 lands, delver decks run 12-14 plus 4 wasteland, miracles runs up to 22, plus you choose different non basics and such. Your argument is nothing compared to what nedleeds is saying. If you don't want to gimp yourself it's as simple as no matter what, your deck right now should start with 4 Brainstorm