Good work Martin. I am yet to watch them all through, but in general I appreciate your english being really good and your thought process interesting to listen to.
I myself prefer live commentary as mistakes and why they are made shine through much more that way.
Only negative comment is that some of what I have seen could be going a bit faster, and obvious plays dont need elaborating too much. But two big thumbs up from here! :)
On the deck, I went 4-1-1(ID, played it out and won so basically 5-1) on the weekly tourney in Faraos Cigarer.
I tweaked the list a bit, and it felt greater then in a long time.
Compared to my latest list posted here I shaved a fetch, a Strix and a thought scour for 2 ponders and a bird.
List was as followed:
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Misdirection
1 Thought Scour
2 Ponder
4 Food Chain
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
Sideboard
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Misdirection
I wont write too much, other than the SB should have been tweaked more against combo, and less based on permenant removals. I played an won against Rug delver, UB omni, U Omni, D&T, then lost to Storm before taking down Belcher in fnal round which we played out for fun. Tyrant upside: Really, really good against S&T decks. Won g1 by keeping a tyrant + crap hand as I had seen he was UB omni. S&T, put in my tyrant, he put in omni. I had fow and countered his first play with omni, bouncing it. GGs :D
Yeah I'm still a fan of Tidespout as our go-to guy. He just seems to be great in the most number of different situations. Even against Storm, he gives us an out if they go for the EtW kill.
Last night I went 3-1 (2-0 Storm, 2-0 Reanimator, 2-0 Esper Thopter, 1-2 RUG Delver) with the following list:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Misdirection
2 Ponder
4 Food Chain
1 Thoughtseize
--------------------------
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
--------------------------
SB
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Abrupt Decay
The Delver matchup was by far the most interesting and challenging. I found myself a bit tight on mana the entire game, and probably would have loved to have Tasigur on field due to tight mana holding me back the entire game. I may try him in place of Thoughtsieze in maindeck, and move that Thoughtsieze into the board in place of Venser or Dismember, but I don't like having 0 answers to things like Lodestone Golem. The deck is really quite weak to MUD in this form, I think - good thing not many people play it...
Yeah, definitely try 2 Tasigur and 2 Thought Scour in the main. They have been amazing for me, and I haven't missed the 2 Strix that I cut for the Tasigurs. I have been playtesting this deck for weeks now and Tasigur has been great. He exiles dead griffins, he is HUGE for one mana, he accelerates from B to 7 mana with Chain out, and he gives us cards for 4 mana. The cards are usually pretty crappy for the situation at hand, but typically when I'm activating Tasigur, the game is going to get really long anyway, and I can often find a use for the card later on, even if it is just putting it back to a Brainstorm.
Yesterday I was playing against Esperblade, and I managed to set up the following sequence: I cast Manipulate Fate, opponent FOWs, I FOW back pitching Griffin. It resolves and I get a ridiculous 2-for-6 against a grindy deck, putting all 4 griffins in exile. Feels good, man. I soon topdeck a Food Chain and he gets really really frustrated because he Thoughtseized the first one. This deck is so great for trolling. It looks like a steaming pile of jank and I often still wonder why I win games with it.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
could you share your list? I've been trying to decide what to cut for thought scours as well.
This is what I've been running since last week.
4 Misthollow Griffin
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Food Chain
4 Brainstorm
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Force of Will
2 Thought Scour
2 Dig Through Time
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Just last night I tried a Taiga over the Forest to try two Slaughter Games in the sideboard, but nobody brought a deck I would want to hit with Slaughter Games. It's mostly for Omnitell, though, really.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Hmm interesting. Between the 2 tasigurs, 2 dig through time and 4 deathrites do you find yourself in awkward situations without graveyard fuel?
About Deathrite, that only really happens when the opponent isn't playing fetches. Hasnt happened to me against the usual legacy decks so far. Tasigur does give you graveyard fuel, though, so there's that. In the midgame, I am often happy to pay more mana for Tasigur or Dig anyway.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Ah ok. I'd like to ask a question though, when sideboarding, which are the cards that you seem to cut first?
I'm trying to understand sideboarding for this deck, I'm assuming that baleful strixes, DTT, and abrupt decay tend to be the first to go (depending on matchups).
Are there any situations where we would actually take out food chains?
Would you share your sideboard if you don't mind?
No problem. This is what I have right now, but take this with a grain of salt because some slots are experimental (Slaughter Games and EE)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Slaughter Games (1 Taiga main over the Forest)
3 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Abrupt Decay
If I'm up against grindy decks or midrange decks, I'll take out Tidespout and the Hydras for cards that will make my matchup better. Birds can also go if the opponent doesn't mess with the mana and if I don't really want to accelerate. Decay for Miracles or Blade decks that can't beat me without Jitte, and I also bring two Jitte of my own. For combo, I tend to take out the 2 Strix, 1 Manipulate, 2 DTT, and 3 Decay (depending on the combo deck) and bring in the anti-combo cards. Tasigur tends to enter the battlefield much earlier in combo games because of the lower curve (3 Duress 2 Fluster usually).
I don't think I'd want to take out Food Chain against any deck. Going full combo while holding FOW, Duress, Flusterstorm is pretty good against combo. There aren't many grindy decks that can beat 3-4 Griffins and a Chain either. A lot of people are really threatened by a Food Chain on the stack (usually because they don't have many ways to deal with an enchantment), and I think even getting it FOWed is absolutely fine for the deck's strategy of accumulating value.
I wanted to try the EE for random tribal decks that seem to show up a lot around here, and some very irritating tokens (Angels, Elementals, and Monks). Might also be good against Counterbalance, not that I should even worry about that with 4 Decay already in the deck. Slaughter Games should be game against Omnitell, and it could also help against Miracles by taking out the win conditions. Haven't actually cast either though!
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Not sure how useful a singleton EE would be considering we don't have a way to tutor it up. Ever thought about relic/grafdigger's cage? Or is your meta not very heavy on graveyard decks.
I already have 2 Cage. That has been enough so far considering I also board in Duress and Flusterstorm to go with the maindeck Deathrites. EE is just for redundancy, as another way to X-for-1 the opponent. Another Toxic Deluge could easily take its spot, but I wanted the option to deal with enchantments and artifacts. I'm really not sure if it's worth the sideboard slot, though.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Thanks for your replies :) It helps out a newbie to the deck like me. Do keep us updated if Slaughter Games turns out to be useful against the omnitell bandwagoners.
No problem. Honestly, I'm quite new to the deck myself. I stopped playing it when i realized Fierce Empath wasn't doing it for me, and jumped back on the bandwagon when I saw the new builds and the SCG win. I will try to cast as many Slaughter Games as I can and report back.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Finally got around to playing this deck last night for the 1st time, went 4-0 only dropping one game to enchantress where I just couldn't find a griffon to combo out. It was a fun deck, I prefer combo decks but it is nice to be able to play fair game too. I think all of my wins except for 1 game were from comboing out though
Would Green Sun's Zenith be a viable card? It has been suggested in the thread a couple of times but each time it is dismissed with "can't spend Food Chain Mana on it."
You still have the 2 Fierce Empaths so your density of creatures that win you the game off infinite mana hasn't changed, but if you have 4 lands and Griffin/Chain online then you can still harcast a GSZ for Empath and search for a wincon that way.
It also artificially inflates the manadork count while not diluting the deck, and is also useful in the midgame when the combo is not online by searching for either Scavenging Ooze or Fierce Empath -> Tombstalker/Tasigur
Example:
Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Tombstalker/Tasigur
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Vela
Other spells (24)
4 Food Chain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder/Misdirection/Whatever
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
The problem with GSZ is tempo. The only real tempo play you can use it for is to find a mana source that will ETB with summoning sickness, at which point, why not just run another mana source. Zenithing for Empath? I guess? But that sets you back a turn, Zenithing for Griffin? Yuck!
I think that the real strength of Food Chain is that it's a mid-rangey deck that puts legitimate pressure on the opponent and can win out of nowhere. GSZ is more all-in combo, but I feel that the tempo deficit isn't really worth the gains.
Half of my games I win by beating with griffins. My hardest matchups are against tempo decks like Esper Stoneblade, RUG delver or Grixis delver. Too much counter-magic/disruption, and the clock is too fast. GSZ could be useful, again, but it usually sets you a turn back, and gives them another turn to deal with your threats. That's why I like the Genesis Hydra package, because it is usually never dead. I'd rather have Hydra in hand with no griffin than have a GSZ (there are so many ways to get a griffin, like Manipulate Fate, or Brainstorm, Ponder), and it's also late game threat, and it's also combo tutoring.
The reason why you don't just play additional mana sources is because you don't want your deck to be full of mana elves/birds that are bad topdecks.
You can't even Zenith for Griffin because Griffin isn't green.
As I already explained, GSZ also functions as combo tutoring and a lategame threat.
I agree that GSZ is a 'slow' card in the sense that the price you pay for the increased utility is that it adds an additional G mana to the cost of whatever you are doing, and the Hydra Trigger is useful for getting midrange value or forcing a FC through counterspells, but the increased consistency seems like it could be worth it.
Well, all I can say is play with it. I have my opinion, but obviously hard data would trump that ;) Try it out and see how it goes. It's an interesting idea. Let us know what happens.
Also, with the green creatures you have in your list, you can search up Ooze, Deathrite, Empath, and Arbor, and none of those really seem like game-changing late-game topdecks (maybe deathrite or ooze if there are lots of things in the GY that you want to eat up. Additionally, I suppose you could fetch Tasigur with Empath if you don't have the combo assembled, but again, that adds to the mana cost, and just drawing another empath would have been better.)
If you really want to tutor for an empath (the only combo piece that you can actually fetch with GSZ), then you probably also have griffin ready to go, and given that you (as you already mentioned earlier) can't spend food chain mana on Zenith, you're still potentially a turn back on the combo and would rather have just drawn an empath off the topdeck.
I can see some value in this, but as I said, need to see how it plays to see if it's really something that works. This is how things happen in magic. People try stuff and it works. I do also like that GSZ shuffles back for extra potential value if it resolves.
Last edited by lincolnthree; 05-02-2015 at 04:13 PM.
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