Not exactly, between fetches, zenith, loam and knight, I believe we might have enough shuffle effects/dredge to make it worth it. However, I am only pointing this solution to the 3 Confidant + 2 Libs plan since the 2nd Library feels awkward sometimes.Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
To make it a crappy Sensei's Diving Top you mean.
I've never really felt the need for a second piece of static filter. Between Life from the Loam and Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library usually ends up as a fall-back piece when playing against anything other than Miracles. If you feel differently, that's fine. But I wouldn't get too caught up worrying about multiples of the same rock. No matter what you add, be it Scroll Rack or Sensei's Divining Top or another Sylvan Library, it's going to end up being redundant.
Anyway, ignoring that for a second, why do you want to cut a Dark Confidant?
I actually only played with four one time and through out the whole tournament I drew at least 3 in every game :S I know it is not the norm but after the tournament I always felt like a Library would be better, that is 1 confidant+1 library > 2 confidant.
Maybe I should try 4 of them again, but my time for testing is so limited that I can only try a few cards a week.
I have previously conceptualized a Junk list as well for similar reasons, but turns out Punishing Fire is in fact awesome and the opportunity cost of splashing Red is actually pretty low.
I played Garruk Relentless in Maverick once and he was sick. Liliana is obviously nuts but I have been unable to cast her a non-trivial number of times so I can sympathize with a cut.
Is Scroll Rack really better than Library here? I think I'd rather just have another Library.
That sounds like heaven.
If you want to cut Bob, go ahead. Try out new things. But don't cut Bob, don't cut any card, because it "feels" right. Cut cards and add cards because of factual rights and wrongs.
Change time! (and shameless boredom bump!)
I still haven't managed to replace Horizon Canopy mainly due to issues of juggling colored sources. I've come up with a few replacement options, but all of them either fail to fulfill the color requirements or fail to provide relevant utility. So, if keeping Horizon Canopy around for a while longer is the biggest of my problems, I think I'll settle.
Thrun continues to have the lowest impact in the sideboard. I've kept it in this long because it can make a neato Green Sun's Zenith target against Miracles. But Miracles and to a lesser extent RUG are the only match-ups that Thrun is truly useful against (unless you include fringe crap), and even then it's very rare that I get the opportunity to make use of him. With that in mind, I know that I won't ever be able to have a great match-up against Sneak&Show and OmniShow without gimping my potential against other more relevant decks, but I am still looking to make it a bit better than an auto-loss. As Mr. Kronberger had suggested Slaughter Games as a solution in the past and I know that Matt swears by it in his various BRx piles, I think I'm going to to replace Thrun with Slaughter Games.
I tried out Krosan Grip. I tried out Wear//Tear. Krosan Grip is, without question, better against OmniShow and Sneak&Show, but Wear//Tear continues to be just a straight up better card. At any rate, either one is more relevant and more capable at the current moment than an Ancient Grudge that I rarely am able to two-for-one with due to graveyard hate and lack of worthwhile targets.
The following is what I plan on bringing to Worcester. If anyone has been following along and gives a shit, feel free to make suggestions.
25*Land
1*Forest
2*Barren Moor
3*Bayou
2*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Horizon Canopy
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
12*Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Scavenging Ooze
1*Gaddock Teeg
4*Knight of the Reliquary
1*Qasali Pridemage
1*Dryad Arbor
23*Other Spells
3*Liliana of the Veil
3*Punishing Fire
2*Green Sun's Zenith
3*Life from the Loam
1*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
4*Chalice of the Void
4*Mox Diamond
Sideboard
1*Containment Priest
3*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Thoughtseize
1*Toxic Deluge
2*Golgari Charm
1*Slaughter Games
1*Wear//Tear
-1*Thrun, the Last Troll
-1*Ancient Grudge
+1*Slaughter Games
+1*Wear//Tear
How highly do you value the instant speed on wear/tear? Hull Breach is a similar card, possibly better on average.
I've also been playing Armageddon in my "try to beat decks you can't interact with" slot. The counterability is not as big of a deal if you overload their counters with relevant cards. It is also does good things against miracles and 12post and such. I probably would not replace Slaughter games but I could see playing 3 cages as grave hate and making room for a geddon.
Very cool approach. As a seasoned junk player it has a lot of overlap, but you've somehow taken the best elements from maverick, junk, and aggro loam and cobbled it together. My one suggestion (coming from sdematt in the rock thread) is to cut one liliana and put in a second library. Library is the nuts and easily helps convert long shots into wins if it resolves. Liliana, at least in junk, has been lackluster as of late for me. She has some value against miracles and omnitell, but not a lot. I have dropped to 2 in junk and may even drop her to the sideboard in favor of hymn to tourach. I also like to cobble decks together and my junk list pulls a lot from deadguy, which is more tempo oriented than junk.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've been wanting to make a SB cut for a Thoughtseize and I think you are correct that Thrun is the weakest link.
Keep in mind Liliana is "better" in this deck than Junk in the +1 department since a lot more of the stuff you discard either gets a lot less good (2nd Chalice or Mox against certain decks) or still has a textbox in the graveyard (P-Fire, Loam, lands to pump Knight).
Oh absolutely, not contesting that. All I mean is that I think a second library would be good and Liliana is really the only place to cut to make room. I use 2 library in loam pox and I often use my draw for the turn to dredge loam and then use the extra draws if I need the gas. Once some decent disruption is in place it would be good to dig deeper for threats, hopefully closing the game faster so your opponent can't find their abrupt decays.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
For the record, schniggaz (Niklas Kronberger) is the progenitor of the list.
(Sent from phone)
About the wear//tear vs Krosan Grip comparison, I agree with you, Grip is superior but tear gives you more flexibility, however I am stick with grip because of the prevalence of Omni decks in my meta.
I am currently trying 1 scroll rack instead of the 2nd Library. But since I am trying it online, I still haven't drawn it enough, to gather conclusions but it is quite promising.
I am also juggling between the 3rd GSZ vs Toxic Deluge main, and whenever I change it up, I miss the flux of zeniths I see sometimes.
I keep changing the slot of Horizon canopy to Bojuka Bog/Manland. I am still not sure what I like there.
About the sideboard, Slaughter Games is a house in this deck. So many games that just end on 4th turn.... A couple of times it was a bit slow, but usually is fine.
I like having the 2nd teeg on the sideboard vs elves, but your containment priest makes sense also. How has it been for you? And spirit of the labyrinth?
The sudden demise is there instead of the 2nd Charm, still not sure if it is the right call.
Thrun has been shaved for the same reasons iamajellydonut stated above...
My current list is the following
24*Land
1*Forest
2*Barren Moor
1*Bayou
2*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Horizon Canopy
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
2*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
4*Windswept Heath
4*Wasteland
12*Creatures
3*Dark Confidant
1*Deathrite Shaman
1*Scavenging Ooze
1*Gaddock Teeg
4*Knight of the Reliquary
1*Qasali Pridemage
1*Dryad Arbor
24*Other Spells
2*Liliana of the Veil
3*Punishing Fire
3*Green Sun's Zenith
3*Life from the Loam
2*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
4*Chalice of the Void
4*Mox Diamond
Sideboard
1*Gaddock Teeg
3*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Krosan Grip
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Sudden Demise
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Golgari Charm
3*Slaughter Games
I had considered Hull Breech, but I never tested it and I have no intention of doing so. "Instant" is just too good of a type. Also, Wear//Tear has a better mana cost unless you're "fusing" the card. In which case, I don't mind paying three mana for a two-for-one and it can even be beneficial in the case of Counterbalance.
Armageddon is a neat idea. Kind of reminds me of Realm Razer. I think I'd be worried about it being too much of a symmetrical effect though. How have you found Armageddon to be when you're without an active Life from the Loam?
The biggest issue with ditching Horizon Canopy is that I'm wanting it to be mana source first, utility second. And it's just so tough to find something that's not useless, doesn't come into play tapped, and taps for more than one color. Regardless of my dumb conditions, Bojuka Bog is definitely not the way to go. The only time it's not a crappy Tormod's Crypt is when you get to untap with a Knight of the Reliquary and dig for it. And, by that point, most of the relevant things that would get hampered by a Bojuka Bog have already either flopped or killed you. Sure, dropping a Tormod's Crypt does have a decent effect against a number of fair decks in the format, but at the same time so do things like Wasteland and Grove of the Burnwillows and Maze of Ith. I feel like Bojuka Bog is the epitome of a wasted slot without something like Crop Rotation to quickly abuse it.
That's what I'm banking on with Slaughter Games. While they can kill faster, it's not uncommon to see games go to the point where Slaughter Games is a reality. Especially with Mox Diamond or an early Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor. I haven't got any testing in with it yet, but I think my only issue right now with Slaughter Games is that it's going to blow against Elves.
I've been fine with only one Gaddock Teeg. He is without question a powerhouse of a hatebear, but, with Green Sun's Zenith, the difference between one and two copies is negligible. The only time the second really makes a difference is against something like Miracles when you assume they're going to kill the first. It does also help with the natural-draw against stuff like ANT, but I feel I already have a good enough density against ANT, and there are other bears that can be played if the natural-draw is all you're looking for.
Containment Priest was a natural inclusion upon its release. I either ranted earlier in this thread or in another Rock thread about it being crap. I do still say it's a piece of crap, but I've found it to be necessary crap. The reason I say it's "crap" is that its application is basically Sneak&Show and... nothing else. It's literally Sneak&Show hate. It does have fringe capabilities against decks that we're already comfortable with, but even most of those overlaps could be handled by a different card with a broader application. For example, against Elves, Containment Priest is literally a Gaddock Teeg that you can't Green Sun's Zenith for. It does have a few things going for it like flash and not cutting off your own Chalice of the Void, but it's basically Gaddock Teeg. I definitely resent the copy of Containment Priest that I have, and I definitely won't be going up another copy, but I don't plan on cutting it any time soon. It does it's job.
I won't go so far as to say that Spirit of the Labyrinth is "amazing" or that I love it, but I will say that Spirit of the Labyrinth has the broadest application of any card in my sideboard, and that it has definitely pulled its weight. It's a leg up against any combo and nearly every fair blue deck. While I wouldn't be opposed to replacing it if another card was truly screaming for a slot in the sideboard, it has definitely earned its current slot and I couldn't ask for more from it.
I feel like Sudden Demise just wants to be Toxic Deluge. Speaking of which, how has Toxic Deluge in the main treated you whenever you run it?
I understand the concern with the tap land.... With 4 cycling already it kinda feels weird some time(and not that few). However I am not really happy with canopy, I feel like it never makes much difference and just screams " Get me out of here".
As you can tell, I never bring it against elves. I feel I have enough cards to bring against them(between canonists, teeg and sweepers). Slaughter games also excels in threat light fair matches, such has miracles.
I actually never felt that behind against Sneak&Show... Between Knight, Liliana, Karakas/Maze and Teeg, I usually pull it of. I haven't played it in a while since everybody changed to omnishow, so I should test the matchup to see if stills hold true or if I need more hate.
This is the card I want to test the most of your choices.... Seems a bit odd but I can definitely see it with high impact in some matchups.
I drew Sudden demise 2 times so far, and could have been anything, so I cannot stand for it.
In regards to Toxic Deluge I have mixed feelings about it... Even if KotR usually never dies to it, I feel it is not a symmetrical effect that we can easily break. It is nice when I see it against elves in game one, but I am not 100% sold on it.
Story of my life. I've been trying to get rid of it for the last two months, but, for the reasons stated above, I've had no luck finding a suitable replacement. I've kind of resigned myself to having to keep it around at this point.
Also, I noticed you're running two Taiga but only one Bayou. I would have imagined even a third Grove of the Burnwillows before the second Taiga. Reasoning for it?
Damn man, caight me completly off guard. I know my mana ratio is fine and I could ramble a bit how you want a second fetchable mana source, but I actually never conaidered running a 3rd Grove... And it might be great to find the combo faster... Have to test it, thanks.
Btw, have you ever consider running a cabal pit? I ran one for a while and it was great.... Although in the current meta seems quite off
I mean, I obviously prefer another Bayou, but in terms of a R/G dual I feel like two fetchables is redundant while having more Groves can never be a bad thing.
I did consider Cabal Pit, and am still considering Cabal Pit, but whatever I replace Horizon Canopy with, I want it to be a mana source first and utility land second. Tapping forisn't the same as tapping for
I don't know if I'm sold on Slaughter Games in a list without Burning Wish unless you play a pile of them, which doesn't seem great. In the matches where its good I think you really want to draw it. Problem is Burning Wish-->Slaughter Games basically means your Slaughter Games can be countered.
Unfortunately I can't contribute to the Horizon Canopy discussion as I've never played it in this deck.
Eh, I mean, given that it's taken me this long to try out Slaughter Games, I'm obviously not too much of a fan of the card either. But sometimes it just has to be accepted that the best cards for the job can't necessarily be tutored. Like Ethersworn Canonist. I'm not sure if I'll stick with it, but I'm definitely going to give Slaughter Games a fair shot.
In other news, you gonna be at Worcester?
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