Originally Posted by h2o
Why would you need to adapt? What makes it stronger than any jacedeck with dig?
I was just curious. I don't have much experience playing against non-Miracles blue control decks.
(edit shortened quote up)Hey Hrothgar, that was me
My overall strategy with the deck is: do 1 for 1 trades early, Brainstorm, and set up a Dig through Time. Dig for the correct threats and then switch to being proactive.
Let me comment on my deck choices:
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2 Spell Pierce: A concession to shenanigans like Chalice, Trinisphere, Grim Monolith, and Liliana. It might be the worst card in the 60 but it can save your ass sometimes.
I too play UWR stoneblade. I'm responding to your first post that is several days old/ I believe 2 spell pierce in the main is the right call. I'm glad you had some success with this. I've tried 4 (too many), 3(good), 2(good) and 1*(too few) spell pierce. I belive 2-3 is correct, and personally I like 2 over 3.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=82342
Yes that is my list (very similar to yours).
I would like to talk about card choices more since you are on a similar build as me. I've considered spell snare, but I have been much more comfortable with the pierces for the past couple years of playing with this deck. Here is why I think spell snare is less important in uwr. Uwr packs more removal, and while lightning bolt isn't a reliable way to kill all the dudes , I killed at least one tarmogoyf at Syracuse with it. You have mentioned your concerns with maverick. My list handles that deck fairly well and I consider it favorable. they hardest thing to beat is a teeg that is protected with safekeeper or an active mother of ruins. As long as I keep that from assembling I am generally ok (p.s. I never board out force of will against them). I like my list versus death and taxes because I pack a sweet instant speed board wipe that is very castable against rishadan ports, and thalia while still being meaningful when I am behind (versus spot removal one for one trades when behind) I personally would like to see an extra pyroblast be added to your sideboard. I think your success against mud was because you lacked it making your hedge against those decks, stronger.
I have tried the academy ruins package, and I loved it. Right now I been liking karakas more, but academy ruins has always been a good runner up. I have won games because karakas vendilion clique (amazing blocking combo). I have also won games because of engineered explosivees recursion and batterskull recursion (great against esper ). Right now I am preferring terminus over swords but my deck did need a few modifications. I needed to add sensei's diving top #3, I need to drop 2 truename and add the third vendilion clique (avoids value loss from board wipes). I still have problems against shardless bug. I think I am slightly favored against most delver decks. I don't know how good my current list is against infect, because I haven't tested it. before I ran terminus, I ran Swords to plowshares and it was favorable. other things I like about terminus right now is it handles problematic situations like multiple beaters (tarmogoyf, delver, ect), monastery mentor (a up and coming problem card), Truename nemeis (where traditional answers to a resolved one is council's judgment), mother of ruins +plus any dude, and against stoneforge mystic (before and after activatable).
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All this said, I run a rouge list and it's not for everyone. It is the deck list I am most comfortable playing because I been running this basic strategy for a few years now. I think deck expierence is probably more important then a card choice here or there to be successfully with any given list, includes UW, Jeskai, and Esper list (Yes, I cringed when I used the word "jeskai").
Last edited by lost_ronin_soul; 05-14-2015 at 12:01 AM.
to be honest I have avoided playing Sensei's Top builds because I am not yet a fast player and the clock is my enemy. maybe I'll try it out when I get more experience.
To me the Top/Terminus builds are closer to Miracles than what I think of as Stoneblade, at least in terms of playstyle.
grats on the finish by the way.
I board out the Will cause frequently Maverick have the Black splash and thay bring Thoughtseize or Duress.
Is an attrition match, where imho, cards like wear/tear, Esplosives, Plowshares, can be very good.
Why you don't board out Will? Can you elucidate me?
How to improve this matchup?
I have some trouble...i don't play Terminus.
In G2 i bring in Pyroclasm and Explosives (maindeck 3 Plowshares and 1 Verdict).
MUD are too strong.
I have good time if i see remove vs Metalworker, Explosives vs Chalice and my Blood Moons.
Normally i fetch for basics.
Sulfur Elemental is a card that fits your deck quite well.
I wish!! I made my build because their were tons of control variants in the meta when TC was still around... Now in the central Ohio meta there appears to be much more combo decks and aggro builds. There are only a couple control builds running around. One of them is Grixis control but the other 2 or 3 are all Miracles Control.
I am going to be part of a group that is traveling to Wooster in a couple weeks for the Legacy open though. Does anyone know what the NorthEast Meta looks like??
Sensei's diving top help fight through discard. This makes your long term card quality better over their discard. But for the non SDT player's you have dig through time. I haven't tried it in my list because my terminus's are better in my deck then in my hand even if I run 7 brainstorm effects to put them back on top. Then again I been also lazy and haven't actually tested a copy or two, so there is my disclaimer. My play style against this deck is not taking the view of an attrition war. I view it as me wanting to resolve my important spells, while denying their back breaking spells. I take the same stance against rug delver (which is an attrition war). The idea is early game I may tap out for stoneforge mystic leaving it vulnerable to removal or a green sun zenith on X (Gaddock teeg, Quasli pridgemage, Thrun, the last troll are cards I want to avoid) as well as making a resolved Jace even more powerful since I can brainstorm into an active counter the turn I land it. Yes they run caven of souls but force of will is a nice insurance plan to avoid sideboard cards like Choke, Tsunami, Armageddon and Elspeth (cataclysm for death and taxes) while still nailing a creature here or there.
Sulfur elemental is nice against death and taxes as well as being great against miracles (bypass counterbalance a lot and kill monastery mentor tokens).
other cards that may help is a terminus or two in your sideboard (you may not run top but you do play brainstorm x4 and probably a jace or two). I feel terminus is a more reliable board wipe against death and taxes versus supreme verdict since they have thalia, wasteland, and rishidan port to keep you away from supreme verdict mana. Another option is statiscaster as it can help your elves matchup. A forth option is grim lavamancer as a two of as it also hits creature decks hard and can help for non-terminus style of uwr blade. Other then that your current bring-ins are solid. Just don't play engineered explosives too early. It's best to cast when you can activate the same turn to avoid it getting destroyed or flickerwisp'ed.
This matchup is unfavorable for me and I haven't tried to improve it because its pretty non existent where I play (at the moment). So I throw this matchup away. But if I get paired against it I guess I just try to rush a quick victory and hope their deck fails itself as it is not too uncommon the deck loses to itself.
I'll let you know my matchups from this weekend. I am stuck between running my Syracuse blade list, or a red/blue show and tell variant. I want to run blade so I can report on here, but I want to run my show n tell because it looks super fun. I will post the meta (mythic games in New York) on here. I expect a decent amount of BUG decks (shardless and delver) and a heavy amount of miracles (feels like 30% but that's probably wrong), a splash of white control (death and taxes, or maverick), some storm, and omnitell is very popular lately, we have some elves too.
With the list I T8'd with, I think the MUD matchup is 50/50. Maybe very slightly unfavorable, but it's very close. MUD is the deck I have the most experience testing against. I got matched against it 3 times in the Swiss of the 5k IQ, beat it twice, and ID'd against it once (but would have lost if it was played out). I do play the 2 MD Council's Judgment which is crucial in the matchup. Here are a few tips:
You cannot beat a resolved Ugin, period.
You can only beat a resolved Sundering Titan if you have something like True-Name + equipment already on the board.
Don't let them activate Forgemaster or they're going to get a Titan, Empirion, or Blightsteel, and by then you've probably lost.
Everything else is totally beatable, but Staff of Nin/Coercive Portal are scary because you are slow and they can rip ridiculous silver bullets off the top.
Always Force a Trinisphere (unless you have Judgment) because it makes your Forces useless.
Assuming I don't have Spell Pierce/Snare/Counterspell available, I will usually Force a Grim Monolith. Usually a Monolith play means that they're about to drop a Cavern of Souls and then start dropping scary stuff. Countering the Monolith slows them down, and if you don't, you might not get another chance to use your counterspell anyways.
Eventually they are going to resolve either a Chalice for 1 or a Trinisphere and you have to win through it. Plan accordingly and be liberal with your 1CC spells early on. Board out your Snapcasters because by the time they become useful, there will be a Chalice or Trinisphere on the board.
How would you describe the Team America Matchup with Jeskai Blade?
I've been playing this Matchup for a while now and it feels very hard after
Sideboard.
They almost always bring in:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
and side out:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
I bring in:
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle (mostly for liliana, I'm not 100% set on this card)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Disenchant (Sylvan Library, Null Rod, Needle on Jace sometimes)
and side out most of the times:
4 Force of Will (if they are on Hymn and no Stifle)
What version of Jeskai are you running? From what I've seen the Jeskai aggro Blade deck with Young Pyromancer has a very favorable matchup against Team America. If you are running the more control build, then the match up gets a lot more difficult. if you have access to Feast and Famine that would be a good call! Likewise, the list I'm looking at from StarCity Cleveland had 1x Baneslayer angel, 2x Pyroblast and 2x Bloodmoon in the board which is always a great call! Here is the link to the control decklist, Not sure how close/far you are away from this one. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=83846
Yep, that's me.
I beat Danny Jessup (piloting BUG) in the Swiss, but his list was sort of suboptimal. I won G1 by removing all of his stuff and sticking TNN+Batterskull. In game 2 he surprised me because he played a TNN (I didn't board in Pyroblasts) and won solely because of that. Game 3 I think I got him with removal -> Dig -> Blood Moon. He had a Confidant out for beats but I found a removal spell before that did me in.
I think the matchup is favorable because Blood Moon and Baneslayer Angel are auto-wins. Post-board, sticking a Blood Moon is the most important thing, even more than sticking a TNN. Liliana is the scariest card in their deck, followed by Hymn, so plan accordingly.
I have no idea if this is optimal.
Out:
2 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
2 Snapcaster Mage (because of Deathrite)
In:
2 Blood Moon
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
Blood Moon vs Team America is a win condition if resolved with our opponent tapped out.
Baneslayer is a good card vs Team America but required 5 lands and the double white mana.
Pyroclasm and Supreme verdict can save us.
I like to board in Pyroblast or Flusterstorm.
I usually remove all the Force of Will and the Judgment from the maindeck.
The problem with boarding in Pyroblast is that they usually board out 8 blue spells. That leaves only 12-14 targets total (Delver, Brainstorm, Ponder, and possibly 1-2 sideboard cards).
Boarding in 1-2 Flusterstorm is probably correct.
My issue with boarding out all Forces and Judgments is that your are now very vulnerable to their best card, Liliana.
Council's Judgement:
I'd never board out Council's Judgement against Team A.
Either you can remove Liliana, Sylvan Libary, Null Rod (insert hate permanent here)
or you can use it as additional creature removal.
Force of Will
I agree, Force of Will can counter Liliana, but in this attrition-matchup a good
BUG Player most likely always play Hymn to tourach or Thoughtseize BEFORE Liliana
because he knows the Planeswalker will single-handedly win him the game.
Getting Hymned with Force of Will in hand is painful. I dislike Flusterstorm in the Matchup
since it can't counter Liliana/Sylvan Library/Decay. It's most likely a hard counter for
Hymn which is quite cute, but I'd rather have Spell Pierce at almost everytime in that spot.
Snapcaster
I also never board out Snapcaster against Deathrite.dec. But I play very offensivly with Lightning Bolts
on Deathrite to prevent loosing to early Liliana shenanigans or losing my graveyard as a resource for
Dig Through Time (and Snapcaster). Btw every flash creature is a big play against an opponent with Liliana.
I can't tell how many times I Snapcaster-bolted an Liliana from 5 loyality to 0 with the following Attackstep. You could even
bring Vendilion Clique for flash-reasons.
Baneslayer
Baneslayer is not that good as you think. Sure they can't decay it but they still have
three Liliana in the 75. Which means we need to have five mana and Snapcaster/Stoneforge/True-Name + Baneslayer
to be sac-proof and at that point I'm sure I'd have already control over the game.
Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast
Very bad, like h2o said they most likely sideout a lot of blue cards and most of the time we don't need additional removal for Delver
of Secrets. I'd definitly bring it in if I saw True-Name Game 1 (some actually do play TNN in BUG, I wonder :D)
Bloodmoon
Obviously you need to clear the board before playing this sort of permanent.
At that point the opponent can play around Moon with 4 Decay and 2 Golgari Charm post board. But it's true,
Moon resolves - you win, if you control the board.
My BUG teammate said: "The matchup feels very positive for BUG. After sideboard I can't imagine loosing. The only cards
I need to handle are Bloodmoon and Jace. I have 6 outs to True-Name after it resolves. And even more ways to handle the Equipments"
Should I play a second Jace, The Mindsculptor? I have no Idea what to cut, though.
After some changes and more testing last night against Miracles and a few other match-ups that could be seen in Wooster... I have altered my Esper Hybrid list to be the following. The changes of adding 2x enlightened tutor for utility (taking out the 4th bitterblossom and Creeping Tar Pit) swapping a polluted delta for a marsh flats because I also took out karakas for an additional plains seems like it's the right call, to really sure up the Miracles match up for me! Now I am favorable in the RUG/BUG match-ups, Infect, combo lands, dredge and re-animator match-ups.... I still think my worst match-ups are Goblins, Elves, Omni-show and Jeskai Stoneblade (aggro version with pyromancer). I think I'm about 50% now against Miracles (depending on their sideboard and kill con). I had one miracles player that HOUSED me with peacekeeper after board (I took out my STP's...). I added 1 Spine of Ish Sah to the sideboard for the "draw" games against miracles to try and break parity and try to eek out a win in the games that will end up being a draw or me loosing on turn 20! lol.... All in all testing this deck has seemed to go well against the infinite meta that is Legacy!! lol.
as a btw, having a 6/6 or 7/7 myth realized against a control deck like miracles with a white available is awesome!
As always opinions and advice is welcomed!
Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand [ONS]
1 Island [DDH]
1 Marsh Flats [ZEN]
4 Mutavault [MOR]
2 Plains [DDH]
3 Polluted Delta [ONS]
1 Scrubland [3ED]
3 Tundra [3ED]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]
Creatures (9)
3 Spellstutter Sprite [LRW]
3 Stoneforge Mystic [WWK]
3 True-Name Nemesis [C13]
Other Spells (30)
1 Batterskull [NPH]
3 Bitterblossom [MOR]
4 Brainstorm [5ED]
2 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
2 Myth Realized [DTK]
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce [ZEN]
3 Standstill [ODY]
4 Swords to Plowshares [DDF]
1 Umezawa's Jitte [BOK]
Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest [C14]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant [MD1]
1 Engineered Explosives [5DN]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [ALA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
2 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Spine of Ish Sah [C13]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
3 Zealous Persecution [ARB]
does mana base work for u? i mean you re a control deck with 22 lands and you re most likely to be mana screwed, i dont know if standstill makes up for this. i would remove true name nemesis for vendillion clique, try to find room for a swamp (and put more black cards in the sb) and remove 2 enlightened tutor for 1 standstill and 1 blossom, i also would change 2 myth realised for 2 jace,tms and maybe remove one spell pierce for stoneforge mystic. also 1 ponder for 1 spellstutter.maybe consider adding some discard spells but i dont know what to remove for them, maybe a cut ponders and put 1 force in the sb for 3 discard spells like thoughtseize-inq of kozilek (and your draw spells to be 4 brainstorm 4 standstill ) i think my ''list'' might work overall better. (you cant have a 50/50 matchup in a stoneblade shell against miracles, because countertop engine is better in the long game, and stoneblade vs miracles is always going to take a lot of time anyways if they put the engine down its game over 70% of the times)
I'm going to offer a #HotTake and say that if you are playing a blue control deck in Legacy you have to be playing Dig Through Time. The card is just too good.
Hi all,
I'm a long-time Esper Stoneblade player who eventually jumped over to Miracles, which is the deck I've been playing for the last year or so. While I love Miracles and think it's a fantastic deck, I'm considering switching back to blade again, at least for a bit, since I find I don't have the mental endurance to play well for more than 5 rounds or so with Miracles. I'm still a control player at heart, but I'm looking for something that can apply a _bit_ more pressure earlier.
The way I see it, there's very little reason to run a black splash as opposed to a red one these days. Discard feels a lot weaker than it used to, especially in a control shell, and the option to have 8 pieces of spot removal plus red blasts seems so much better.
With that in mind, here's the list I'm looking at putting together:
LANDS (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
CREATURES (10)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
SPELLS (28)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
SIDEBOARD
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
1 Containment Priest
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Disenchant
I'm still not too certain of the sideboard - I built it with the following matchups in mind:
Omnitell - super popular at the moment, plays Boseiju to blank counters, so hatebears are very important. Countermagic is still essential when they don't have Boseiju though. Rough boarding plan:
+ 1 Clique
+ 2 Meddling Mage
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Containment Priest
+ 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+ 1 Disenchant
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Batterskull
- 3 Swords to Plowshares
- 4 Lightning Bolt
Death and Taxes - quite popular in Denmark, a problematic matchup for Miracles if the player is good, I feel like TNN + Equipment is so good against them, so this was an important factor to deciding to build stoneblade again. Rough boarding plan:
+ 1 Clique
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Containment Priest
+ 2 Pyroclasm
+ 1 Disenchant
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Spell Pierce
Miracles - This is a 50/50 ish matchup the way I see it - UWR is a LOT better positioned than Esper in this case in my view. Miracles isn't _too_ popular in my area, but it's a super strong deck so it's always important to be prepared. Rough boarding plan:
+ 1 Clique
+ 2 Meddling Mage
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
- 3 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Spell Pierce (can be left in on the play)
BUG Delver - BUG is the most popular of delver decks around here. It's always a hard deck to play against, but I think we can have quite a bit of game against it with UWR Blade. The 'heavier' version with maindeck Liliana and no stifles is by far the most popular one around here, so tools to fight her are very important. Rough boarding plan:
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Counterspell
ANT - Another rather popular deck in Denmark, This is a matchup that I generally like quite a bit with Miracles, but blade should have quite a bit of game against it still. I particularly like being able to keep some bolts to deal with Xantid Swarms or Dark Confidants without being left with totally dead cards if this is not the case. Rough boarding plan:
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Vendilion Clique
+ 2 Meddling Mage
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte
- 1 Stoneforge Mystic
- 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- 1 Council's Judgment
Mirror - And finally, the mirror is important to consider - I hadn't seen many blade decks around for a long time, but they're definitely in an upswing these days. Again, the red splash version is much better than the black one in this case, as Red Elemental Blast is the best card in the deck against blue-based decks with no wasteland. Rough boarding plan:
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 1 Supreme Verdict
+ 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Swords to Plowshares
Of course there's many more decks, but these are some of the ones that I really feel I should be prepared against.
Thanks for reading, and let me know your thoughts!
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