Awesome, thanks for all the advice, based on that how does this sideboard sound?Originally Posted by Shagstaman
3x Choke
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Pithing Needle
2x Thoughtseize
1x Progenitus
1x Scavenging Ooze
I'm not so hot on the Chokes but if they work for your Meta then three copies is at least one too many. The trouble is that multiple copies on board do nothing additional and you have no way to filter your draw so drawing the second is usually dead. Play around Daze with it and then even if the first one eats a Force of Will that is still great for you because it is great bait to clear the way for your gameplan (NO/Glimpse/BFF Grind whichever you've chosen to pursue).
I would switch out the third Choke for the 6th discard but then I play in the UK and see a significant amount of Storm. I like Sylvan Library vs Miracles; Null Rod vs Miracles, Storm and Equipment decks (specifically Jitte); Meekstone vs Delver and TNN.
Last edited by QBChaz; 05-05-2015 at 11:28 AM.
yea I'd cut 1 choke for either thoughtseize, null rod, or sylvan library--depends on what you're more concerned with ... but you don't need to draw multiple chokes and they are pretty narrow anyway.
Looks fine otherwise! =) good luck!
Thank you for writing this so I don't have to.
I would only add that no one is saying that Ruric is a bad card, although Lemnear sounds like it. We're really just debating if G1 it's better to have him or the second Craterhoof. My opinion on this, as always, is that its better to be consistent on the Craterhoof plan than cute on something else.
As for the wonderful anecdotes people have been throwing around about "the one game..." where Ruric won, I would point out that data is not the plural of anecdote. We can all come up with "That one time..." stories for pretty much anything. What I would want to see is some consistent set of results or plausible, *realistic* scenarios. Most of the stories about Ruric in this thread are either A) unrealistic in most games or B) were not clearly better than non-lethal Craterhoof DTS win.
Finally, if we want to sling anecdotes anyway, I would point out that I've won a lot of games where a non-lethal hoof was followed by DTS drain kills or simple beats for the win on the following turn. I would also point out that I've won *even more* games by being able to Craterhoof twice (sometimes on two seperate turns). I even won one glorious game where I NO'd twice in one turn, resolved both, and swung for lethal with Two Craterhoof's and a Nettle Sentinel the turn before a Jitte wrecked my board. Everyone has stories...
Yeah, maybe sounds like that, but I'm sure most people already got that I don't think the cards is bad per sé anyways. It really is just all about that I don't consider Ruric a no-brain-I-win-card foremost and neither think the random and rare appearing turn 2, 4 mana + NO is a reliable tool to fight Storm as Rurics main-application
shit that drives me nuts as you see ;)
Sounds like "Elves! directed by Michael Bay": If you can kill your opponent with a Hoof and 30 damage safely, do it with a critical play into two hoofs and 100+ damage instead
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Funny part is that I didn't quite have lethal with the first Hoof and was basically locked next turn under Jitte. So it wasn't safe, so much as the the only way to win. It was also pre-board so no Ooze/WRPM shenanigans were available.
Sounds like something The Lonely Island made a song about... Something to do with pants... Must have been a Michael Bay-sized splash zone.
I like at as a turn 3 fuck you to burn first and foremost that I'm fine with bringing in against other combo matchups. Burn is certainly beatable without it, but christ does Ruric Thar make it easier. I was sick of losing to searing blood and searing blazeYeah, maybe sounds like that, but I'm sure most people already got that I don't think the cards is bad per sé anyways
Matt Bevenour in real life
Very quick question, what's the thought process about the right number of Natural Order?
I've seen many lists run 3 main 1 side, and many 4 main 0 side.
What's behind it?
1) Probability of drawing it
2) having more must-counters
3) fast access to Ruric
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Nothing like an exclamation point to make a point. :)
Man, I'd sure like to see a Planeswalker that helped our deck. I've tried most of the green Planeswalkers in our deck and they are typically not worth it. They just don't resonate with the vectors of the deck. Having said that, I haven't really come up with what I'd like to see. Has anyone else given this some thought
I don't get the point about that cardtype here especially if it's obvious that the cardtype does not work well with the decks core mechanics. You can hope for Magic Origin's Nissa
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It's mostly another angle of attack for matchups where creatures are iffy, though there's already a bunch of broken enchantments and Garruk Relentless for that as sideboard cards. The thing that would make me cream my pants is a playable disruptive creature that slots into the deck's engine the way, say, Brain Maggot does into Enchantress. One of the biggest advantages Storm has over Elves is that it just wants you to play cards, instead of green creatures preferably of the Elf subtype. Makes it much easier to adjust to the metagame when color and card type don't matter as much and allows integrating disruption into the maindeck much better.
There, fixed it for you.
Elves! easily either draws 3 cards a turn or GSZ's for a SB piece (or the win, for that matter). Storm sculpts a hand capable of winning on the spot regardless of its opponent, Elves! holds on for dear life until it gets that one break it needs and flattens the opponent like a pancake.
Hello my elf-friends!
I would like to present you my Combo Elves deck.
I ran this deck on Russian Legacy Championship (102 players) on 25th of April and made it to the top 8.
Creatures = 30
3 Heritage Druid
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
Lands = 19
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
Other = 12
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
2 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Mindbreak Trap
Some comments on my main list:
1. I didn't find any spots for Llanowar/[card]Fyndhorn Elves[/card] (apart from [card]Deathrite Shaman[/card] + 9 fetch-lands)
2. I cut 1 [card]Heritage Druid[/card] and 1 [card]Quirion Ranger[/card] to add 2 [card]Birchlore Rangers[/card] (mana of any color, morph ability and [card]birchlore rangers[/card] - [card]nettle sentinel[/card] interaction)
3. [card]Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed[/card] is in my main deck, [card]Wren's Run Packmaster[/card] in the sideboard, because I expected a lot of Omnitells, ANTs and Miracles (Moscow metagame)
4. I really like to play 4 [card]Natural Order[/card] in my main deck.
Some comments on the sideboard:
1. 4 [card]Thoughtseize[/card], because I am bad at using [card]Cabal therapy[/card].
2. 1 [card]Surgical Extraction[/card]. I love to [card]thoughtseize[/card] [card]brainstorm[/card] and then to extract it!
3. I played only several matches with 4 gaea's cradle, I used to play 18 lands + 1 [card]Crop Rotation[/card]. I am (was) strongly assured, that 18 lands is enough, so I almost always sided-out 1 fetch-land in games.
Matches:
Game 1: Merfolks. 2-0. Win rate (this column is -_my own opinion column_-): 70%
I won first game in 3 hit points and second game in 5 hit points. Rather slow hands. Side in: 1 [card]Pithing Needle[/card], 2 [card]Choke[/card]; Side out: 1 Craterhoof behemoth, 1 Natural Order, 1 fetch-land.
Game 2: Shardless BUG. 2-1. Win rate: 55-60% (too many removal spells after sideboard)
In the first game my opponent didn't counter my [card]Glimpse of nature[/card] on turn-3, so I dint's expect him to counter [card]Natural order[/card] for [card]Craterhoof behemoth[/card] with 9+ cretures on board.
Side in: [card]Wren Run's packmaster[/card], 2 thoughtseize (stupid choice, I admit). Side out: 1 fetch-land, 1 Craterhoof, 1 Ruric.
He countered Glimpses and orders, I managed to cut down his hit points to 7, then [card]toxic deluge[/card] and I surrendered with 0 cards in my hand.
Side out: 2 Thoughtseize -> 2 [card]Choke[/card].
Turbo fast hand: he countered turn-2 Glimpse, but din't counter it on turn-3 (I had both at my starting hand), he [card]Wasteland[/card]-ed my [card]Gaea's Cradle[/card], but I managed to draw it on turn-3 after glimpsing, and eventually casted [card]Green Sun's Zenith[/card] with x=8.
Game 3: MUD. 2-0. Win rate: 20% (maybe 25, not more).
Fortunately enough, my opponent left a hand (after 1 mulligan) with 2 [card]Wasteland[/card]s and [card]Chalice of The void[/card] and didn't draw any other lands; I had Ooze, Visionary, Order and Cradle in my opening hand. Turn-3 kill.
Side in: 1 [card]Null rod[/card], 3 [card]Abrupt Decay[/card]. Side out: 1 Craterhoof, 1 fetch-land, 2 small guys (He cannot counter either Glimpse or Order, so I think it is a mistake to side them out)
I had a rather fast hand with a lot of small boys and 1 Abrupt Decay. I quickly destroyed [card]Chalice of the Void[/card], then managed to draw a single [card]Reclamation Sage[/card]. Reclamation Sage + Wirewood Symbiote won the game, and I also had a [card]Null rod[/card] on turn-4 draw, that disabled his [card]Grim monolith[/card]. He didn't manage to draw many lands either.
Game 4: Team America. 2-1. Win Rate: 50+% (again - too many removal cards after sideboarding).
I choose not to mulligan a hand with 3 Wirewood Symbiotes, 1 elf and 3 fetch-lands. I draw order and glimpse, but [card]hymn to tourach[/card] catches them both. My opponent is delighted to see that and starts to cast deathrite shamans, tarmogoyfs and delvers in order to kill me. He doesn't have any cards in his hand when I draw an Elvish visionary. So I have 3 Symbiotes, 1 Forest, 1 Arbor on board and visionary + cradle in my hand. I did it without Glimpse of Nature :). And I had exactly 4 mana when I drew [card]Natural Order[/card] :). The newbies are always the luckiest, huh?
Side in: 2 Chokes, 3 Decays. Side out: 1 fetch-land (traditionally), Ruric, Behemoth, Order, Zenith.
Second game was terrible - turn 2 hymn, turn 3 Golgari Charm and even a Decay to seal the deal. No chances.
In the third game my opponent made a mistake (in my opinion) by not mulliganing a hand with 2 golgari charms, 2 Delvers, 1 Wasteland and 1 [card]Underground Sea[/card]. He didn't manage to draw any other lands and not-flipping delvers also helped me. Turn-5 kill.
Game 5: UG infect. 0-2. Win rate: 15-20% or even less.
Even after sideboarding 11 cards I have no answers to [card]Inkmoth Nexus[/card] - I didn't draw my single [card]Pithing Needle[/card]. So the first game was [card]Blighted Agent[/card] + [card]invigorate[/card] + [card]berserk[/card], the second game [card]Inkmoth Nexus[/card] + Invigorate + berserk.
Game 6: Jund. 2-0. Win rate: 60% or more.
Monster mode: on. Rolling dices: he has 9, I have 12 :) First game - classic turn-3 kill with 10+ elves on board.
Side in: 3 decays, 1 packmaster. Side out: 1 Ruric, 1 Zenith, 1 fetch-land, 1 elf.
I knew that there will be a lot of removal, so decided to leave a hand with 1 fetch-land and 6 guys. Presented all of them on turn-2. Decayed his [card]Liliana of the Veil[/card] and [card]Deathrite shaman[/card], manually killed him with a lot of boys.
Game 7: Miracles. Decided to ID, my opponent had 18 points whatsoever. Win Rate: 10-15% or even less. I knew my opponent very well. After sideboarding he adds 2 [card]Sumpreme Verdict[/card] to 4 Terminus, I am very grateful to him for deciding to ID with me.
Top-8: Shardless BUG (exactly the same guy I won at round 2). He has the first turn.
I was already very tired, because I had no experience at playing at this level. He killed me with 2 Deathrite Shamans in game 1, didn't have answers to a second Order in game 2, and managed to crush me in game 3: [card]Engineered Plague[/card], 2 [card]Toxic Deluge[/card]s, Blind Shardless into [card]Ancestral Vision[/card], and I was not as lucky at my topdecks as some games earlier.
GG!
Going to a legacy event in Saint-Petersburg at the 30th of May, I already changed a lot in my list and I am going to test it more and more. Will gladly answer all your questions.
Special Forces Combo Elves
Mostly, I was just musing on what might make a planeswalker that would work with our core approach. So far, I haven't found any planeswalkers that do, though there are some that help against certain match ups.
TL:DR Version: Even while I don’t have any experience with this deck yet other than reading articles and these forum there are at least two tournament proven Planeswalkers that fit into the Gameplan of the Deck. If they really better than other cards that the Deck plays right know is the real question.
Hello, while I have to admit that so far I haven’t played a game with Elves yet I spend the last months purchasing the cards to play it and reading articles and this forum to have an idea what to do as soon as I can start. While I don’t want to pretend to be an expert with this deck I do have a great problem with this statement:
Do you agree with the statement that the change to the legendary rule was good for Elves because it lets you use two Gaea’s Cradle in one turn? If that is the case, do you really want to argue that Gaea’s Cradle + Planeswalker = two Gaea’s Cradle activation a turn is something that is completely uninteresting for Elves Gameplan? If it is good enough to justify a Decklist spot is definitely another discussion but the way the Planeswalker discussion is held right now I got the feeling that it is dismissed before really thinking about it.
There are two Planeswalker that are able to do that, Garruk Wildspeaker because of its untap Lands ability and Xenagos the Reveler which +1 ability is basically Gaea’s Cradle on a Planeswalker that can make red Mana in addition to the green Mana and you can choose any combination of red and green Mana out of the total Mana. Both have the added Bonus that they can make tokens to pressure the opponent should your board be empty. In both cases Xenagos is superior to Garruk. Garruk will only make Cradle Mana when you already have Gaea’s Cradle in play while Xenagos can do it as soon as he hit play. While Garruk makes a 3/3 Token the ability is a – 1 one ability which limits the number of tokens you can produce. Xenagos on the other hand makes 2/2 haste tokens with a 0 ability which makes an unlimited stream of tokens. During Return of Ravnica / Theros Standard it was a common view seeing Xenagos machine gunning down slow control decks with nearly no creatures and no burn to handle him on instant speed, even when the control decks had a three Mana sorcery speed spell that can remove Planeswalker. Even when the control deck were able to deal with the tokens with a creature sweeper Xenagos was still there to just start again, thanks to haste directly on his next activation. Well if that scenario does not remind you on the miracles match up than I don’t know what will do. Even if I wouldn’t count on hitting the ultimate in a deck like Elves, even here I would give the advantage to Xenagos. While Garruk can make an Overrun in the case of Elves you should be faster and better while taking the Craterhoof Behemoth route then trying to do that with Garruk. Xenagos Ultimate on the other hand helps you rebuilding your board when the board was destroyed. While again if everything works as it should be going the ultimate route would just be slower, but if anything went wrong it usually included that your board was destroyed, in that case an ability that rebuilds your board does not sound completely stupid. Even in that case the question remains if the 2/2 haste tokens are a better solution but that depends as always on the match up and the game state.
Sure you now may ask but do I really need a four Mana Planeswalker when a four Mana Natural Order wins the game? Again the question is not so simple. Again against Miracles if the Planeswalker works as intended it is a must counter. So you can bait a counterspell with it like you can bait a removal spell by playing a Heritage druid, you can see if they have a 4 CC Mana Spell on top of their library for Counterbalance purposes in that case you know that you don’t need to try to cast your Natural Order. And should your Planeswalker resolve in the case of the two mentioned above there is a chance depending on your board position that their Mana ability generates at least as much Mana as you spend on the Planeswalker, in that case you still can play the Natural Order now knowing that as long as they don’t bluffing the coast is clear because if they would have been able to counter they most likely would have countered the Planeswalker. And should they answer whatever you got from your Natural Order with an Instant Terminus you still have your Planeswalker and can switch to the Token route starting the following turn.
If that still don’t convince you to try a four Mana Planeswalker how about a three Mana Planeswalker? The one interesting here is Domri Rade. While his contribution is less obviously then the one of Xenagos Domri Rade again is a way that creature heavy Decks, and I would count Elves at that, fight control Decks. If your opponent tries to control you with removal he is relying on 1:1 trades. The one who draws more cards will win that fight. In a deck like Elves his +1 Ability will net you one card every second turn on average. Try to find enough removal to keep up with that. His -2 Ability can sometimes random relevant if you have to remove a blocker before attacking with a then lethal Craterhoof Behemoth attack. Compared to Xenagos that is not so much but sometimes the little things can make a difference.
In both cases Xenagos and Domri both Cards have proven to be tournament relevant. Even if they yet didn’t made a splash in Legacy keep in mind that both needs very specific Decks in order to function and yes there are few Legacy Decks outside of Elves that would benefit from them like Elves would. So saying that there are no Planeswalker that benefits Elves seems wrong to me. The more relevant question is do you find room to play them and are they really better than the existing options? In the case of Domri I think the most logical spot where to play it is instead of Glimpse of Nature, which honestly is not a competition I see Domri winning. The more interesting question is what to do with Xenagos. After he could be most brutal in combination with Gaea’s Cradle I definitely would not want to cut Cradle’s for him so you would have to play him as Cradle 5 – 8. If you still play the fourth Heritage Druid or in that Spot a card that should improve the Miracles Match Up than I would think about trying Xenagos in that Spot. After you can’t tutor for him that is at least one fewer that I would like and I definitely wouldn’t want to cut another creature for the second Xenagos. That is the greater problem with the Deck and Planeswalker finding room to put them in.
First off, wow, that was an incredibly convoluted way of saying "Mayhaps we can fit a Xenagos in the list?".
Secondly, you skip the part where Xenagos is off color for this deck and in my opinion not good enough to merrit a splash into a third colour.
You also miss what it might or might not add to the Elves! gameplan. Seeing as Xenagos himself costs 4 mana to cast, that means you are likely to not need his +1 anymore by the time you can cast him. His 0-ability doesn't further the gameplan and his ult can be emulated by The Best Friends Team, sort of.
And I'm not even touching the "Xenagos and Domri have proven themselves tournament relevant but haven't made a splash in Legacy yet"-bit. That point falls apart on its own, no help needed.
Then think about it yourself: Garruk demands 4 mana to be cast (and to resolve) to untap the Cradle, while Cradle into Cradle is zero mana and uncounterable. Your comparison lacks a lot on this fundamental level and also ignores all required evaluation in context of "How good is this card at certain points of the game and against certain decks compared to another card?". What would you cut, just for discussions sake?
I love it how people act as if the sheer volume of mana in this deck post turn 3 would be a chockepoint aside the core problem decks like Miraclea present, which breaks down to "no creatures in play -> no mana". Garruk or Xenagos do not help with the decks common problem in the metagame split between Miracles and OmniTell
There is an issue caused by seeing the cards resolution (and access to Cradle) as given against Wasteland, Pierce, Daze or the simple fact that Xenagos is off-color. You seem to have the idea that no one before tested with the token-producing planeswalker attempt before, which is wrong and the flaws of that plan have two levels. First is, as mentioned, getting the Walker into play against several possible obstacles and second, that the clock is not only pretty unimpressive considering that your tokens can meet a few 4/4 Angels on their way for an ambush and immediate counterstrike, but that Miracles has tools to fight the Walker with Councils Judgement, Pithing Needle, etc. while other decks present in the metagame can ignore the low impact of a Walker here at all. I know that "but there is removal" is not an compelling argument and it's not that I want to make one out of it, but want to point at timing and impact of those Walkers in given matchups
This passage is so ridiculous, it barely demands a rap. You try to find arguments for Xenagos playability for Legacy pointing at Standard? The card didn't even make a splash in Modern!
You want to make a point on Counterbalance @ 4 rather than at FoW, Pierce, Flusterstorm and smart timed Terminus? Why counter your Garruk in the first place? If he powers a Hoof or creates Tokens you still can cast Terminus, so what gives? Are you aiming at idiots at the other end of the table with your playlines, like you did with "bait a removal spell by playing a Heritage druid"? Who does this?
Garruk is NOT a must-counter. If a Miracles-Player opts to do so, he needs to have a very good reason. Every attempt to slowly ride a Walker to victory against Jace, Terminus and Entreat (blocking your Tokens and smacking you and your Walker) is far from impressive.
How should that convince me? You present best-case scenarios and assume your opponent is an incompetent idiot without a plan. If you point at an 3-mana planeswalker and the off-color Domri comes to your mind instead of Liliana, I think we're talking something different than "compeditive Legacy".
Not in Modern; not in Vintage; not in Legacy ... invalid as an argument
Better asked questions here, I already answered. They lack the ability to adress problems and are ergo not worth their space, only serving as win-more options. The conclusion rightfully is, that there is no Planeswalker atm which Elves benefit from running.
Is there a problem with interpreting card functionality within context? Completely different cards with different costs and different purpose. It's like throwing GSZ in a competition with Genesis Wave.
It the lesser problem to find space, rather than finding a role he does better than Crop Rotation if "running 8 Cradles" is your goal given that he's not only 4 mana, but off-color as well.
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