The card's not great, so I cut it. Never looked back.
-Matt
Cutting the 6 drop out of this deck (pfire) felt wrong. Not being able to go for something bigger was kind of a anticlimax. I will be keeping a 6 drop in. Or i will again look into a 7 or maybe even 8 drop.
On another note: Back in the days there was this Green Stompy deck running Weatherseed Treefolk. Pretty scary back then. Offcourse is Siege Rhino in (almost) any way better, but in non white version of the deck it might be pretty good. Anyone have experience with this guy? Costs (2)GGG and it's oracle wording says:
"Trample
When Weatherseed Treefolk dies, return it to its owner's hand."
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Originally Posted by Chatto
i may give weatherseed treefolk a try today on modo, see how it goes!
Does anyone try out Titania at all or has it been dismissed as not good enough already? Seems fine and you can get back dead Groves too if you really need to.
5 mana for a 5/3 that doesn't die when it comes back to the most common thing that can hit it (STP)? I don't think this will be quite good enough.
Titania is fine, but needs to be built around (well, you need Safekepeer). Problem is, how many fetches are you playing to reliably support her? I've seen her do work with Knight, but is Knight where you want to be right now? Hard to say.
Titania's "sac all my guys and make Juggernauts EOT. Get you?" is poo-poo'd by Miracles instant speed Wrath of God. I still go to sleep wondering if Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is good enough. Think of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Deed, or in response to Terminus, etc. Seems decent. The issue is this: the 6 drop has to be good to pay 7 mana for it. It has to win you the game. The problem? None of the cards we're going for do that. So, in that case, I'd almost rather have more Thruns, Sigardas, etc. and lower the curve. The inherent problem with the deck is if you do not fire off your 2 card combo, which does NOT win you the game, you have to play the "Land, go" game for turns while your opponent builds up countermagic to your one threat a turn.
The Siege Rhino build tries to get around this by playing a reliable, good threat that can come down Turn 2 with acceleration, but at Turn 3/4 is still very solid, and has effects later in the game due to CITP abilities.
-Matt
Yeah I was looking for more options within the pfire build. I played about 6-8 games with the 4 color version.. and having the red seems like a must with all the miracles / omni on mtgo. So figured I would get back down to the pfire build and just work on that for awhile.
Slaughter Games is eminently splashable by any version. Just throw in a Taiga, maybe sideboard a mountain if you're paranoid, and away you go. Alternatively, don't forget that Carpet of Flowers makes colored mana, so you can also generate red for that if you're vs something like miracles (where you side explorers out...at least 3 of them).
Per my memory, Broodmate is the only relevant 6-or-higher bomb in red that is actually playable. Soul of Shandalar is close enough you could test it out if you wanted to; Inferno Titan is not good enough. There may be something new that I'm unaware of, I'm not sure. But as of when I was current on the card pool, Broodmate was the best you were going to get, and it was frequently debated if Broodmate is actually good enough, even.
Titania is a fine card, but imo she's held back by Deathrite's existence -- Deathrite dis-incentivizes you from playing Knight of the Reliquary. As Matt noted, obviously Terminus is also a grade A problem. I'd say it's worth having a copy of Titania in your binder somewhere, but I don't think the meta is currently correct for her.
Here's a checklist of things to look for since the bomb debate is going on:
-) Needs to have a strong etb/leaves-play trigger -OR- be hexproof.
-) Needs to have at least a 4 on the ass if not hexproof.
-) Bonus points if it brings an extra body(ies) to the table, either via recursion or tokens.
-) Bonus points if it has haste.
-) Bonus points if it has lifelink or vigilance.
-) Bonus points if it is GSZ enabled.
Sun Titan clears 4 of these. Sigarda clears 3. Thragtusk clears 3. Rhino clears 3. Amusingly, Consecrated Sphinx only clears 1...but its effect is so ludicrously powerful that we forgive it anyway.
But yeah. Most staples and (nic fit) playables clear 3 or sometimes 4 of these categories. If you're looking for a bomb, try to check as many of these boxes as you can. If it only hits two or fewer boxes, either something else about it needs to be extraordinary (see ConSphinx) and thus it is an exception, or else you just flat out shouldn't be playing it.
You know, I had the problem of not finding a suitable 6-drop for Punishing Nic Fit, too. After weighing the pros and cons of each usable card carefully, I've came to a conclusion:
Building my list with 1 or 2 Manlands, to get the best value from Prime Time. I'm liking Raging Ravine as Manland, as it gets bigger and nastier every attack and produces R for Pfire. But Treetop Village might be better, especially when playing with Wolf Run.
My reason for building around Prime Time this way is: When I have a big Finisher, I want it to be able to get around all the commonly played Removal. So we have Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil and Terminus. And of course, I want it to end the game quickly and easy to be found.
Which leaves me with only one Creature that fulfill all of these:
Primeval Titan
Since I'm "building around" Prime Time (if you call 1 or 2 Slots building around) I find myself playing the control route until I can zenith for him. Then I get Treetop and Wolf Run, and start bashing with Prime Time. If he gets removed, I've still got a sizable body. If Treetop gets removed, I've normally cast any other creature, which is still a threat through Wolf Run. And if everything goes wrong, I already have lots of lands and with 4 Groves, I should have drawn one to slowly PFire my opponent to death.
You could make a point for Sigarda, Host of Herons if you have Karakas, since it's her only way to evade Terminus. But sometimes I'm even happier with her in the Deck so my opponent can't counter her.
Batterskull is in a similar boat as Sigarda. The minus is that it can't be zenithed and it doesn't get behind a Goyf.
AEtherling may be a good Finisher in BUG, btw.
Thragtusk - I don't see it as this inevitable Finisher, as it's easily traded with. Yes, you get lots of value from it, but as it "just" trades with Goyf (leaving a 3/3 behind nonetheless, but this is also easily dealt with).
Bonus Points for Siege Rhino - but it doesn't get past a Goyf reliably and leaves nothing behind versus Swords, Liliana and Terminus.
Broodmate Dragon, Titania, Protector of Argoth and Rampaging Baloths die to Terminus without leaving anything, and Miracles is a really tough Matchup for the non-PFire Nic Fit versions. Even Punishing Nic Fit can be out-controlled by Miracles (as they need fewer lands to do their good things), so the argument "but Miracles is a good Matchup, anyways" doesn't count for me.
Like sdematt, I also try to lower the curve - which brought me to a Stoneforge build instead of a Rhino Build. I'm completely abandoning the idea of a beefy 6-Drop in a Junk version. Jund, on the other hand, with its focus on having more lands, can make perfect use of Prime Time.
A side note for khamal. If you are looking to play a junk equipment list do not fall for the four stoneforge trap. Play two ladys and three equips alongside rhino he'll push in the swords and jittes for counters and they'll usually do a good job controling the board for you in midrage mirrors. Stoneforge is just early ca and sac fodder for tower or therapy not your win condition. Batterskull also has felt like a trap for me I always wanted a sword never the skull.
Thank you for the input about Stoneforge, uncletiggy :)
I also think that Rhino is a good starting point for pushing through with the equipment, although I just have cut it down to 1 to make room for Garruk Relentless. I've got some Miracles in my area, and those players always tell me that they're not afraid of Siege Rhino at all.
For my Setup, I've already seen that four Stoneforges is too much, so I settled down at three and Jitte + Skull. Feast and Famine in the Board. I've had some really different experience with her - I always find myself searching for Skull or Jitte (Deed is likely to influence the decision) and none of the Swords do it for me. Feast and Famine is in the board for Combo to have repeatable Discard, that's all. If I think about it, I've come to quite a similar list to the recent one that James Hammes used.
I just like Skull because it's a fine thing to push the initial aggro through without even needing the Explorer ramp, that can frequently benefit my opponents, and has a lot of staying power. And if I have the ramp - fine! I'm very comfortable hardcasting it without the need of Stoneforge.
The way to beat Miracles is walkers and your evasive threats - Thrun and Sigarda. Fires is obviously way good, but not generally run in the same shell.
-Matt
Stoneforge JUNK fit of whatever. I have been toying around with a list around the time Rhino got released. Looking at that list and tweaking it with the comments here this is what i would probably play:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 (combat walker) Elspeth or Garruk
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 4 (white hatebears)
Sun Titan is just so good. Just to have Pernicious Deed lock this would be the sole reason to run JUNK. I really think that this kind of tech boils down to the core of NicFit. That being said, to completement Sun Titan running CMC =< 3 equipment is the thing to do here. Also you could run SoLaS to have a pseudo Recurring Nightmare tricks with Siege Rhino.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
@Bobmans: This is the direction I'm debating about playing Nic Fit. I go back and forth on wanting SFM + toys or just a critical mass of bigger dudes. I agree with Sun Titan. He's downright brutal in Junk variants.
@Arianrhod/anyone: I really like that list of criteria for "what creatures can Nic Fit run?" Do you think Wurmcoil, Thragtusk, and Ruric Thar reach MD criteria?
Thragtusk is def maindeckable depending on your build. Especially if your in jund. Wurmcoil is good in bug list that take emphasis off zenith and focus more on reccuring nightmare or deadeye. And ruric I have no clue on honestly he may be winmore. I'm not sure which match ups he improves generally victories versus combo come from discard and bears slowing them down enough to get some random beats in doesnt really matter whats turning sideways the top of the curve is almost completely irrelevant.
@bobmans my list is five cards from yours -1titan -1courser -1pulse -1 witness -1 deed +2 rhino +1 rec sage + 1nightmare +1 g charm
I don't think Kessig Wolf Run is overkill. If you play prime time around 6-7 and gets kessig and other land you can attack for at least 11 if the oppenment don't do somrthing ofc. It also makes all your creatures a bigger threat. Even explore is dangers and usally really bad at the end game. I have won matches beacuse I could wolf run a wolf for 6 when the oppent have to kill huntmaster.
Why has the Scapeshift build fell out of flavor? That's actually the only list I used to play of Nic-Fit, and I absolutely loved it. Winning through hardcast Primetimes or just randomly comboing people out with Scapeshift, while allowing me to run old nostalgic cards like Wood Elves. Decks I used to build at the kitchen table with my buds (we had a box of 12,000 cards from Alpha onwards and would just make casual decks and have giant 8v8's. Probably some of the most fun I've ever had in Magic) used to always run green mana guys, Wood Elves being my premier three-drop most of the time.
Well, let's run it through.
-) Needs to have a strong etb/leaves-play trigger -OR- be hexproof.
-) Needs to have at least a 4 on the ass if not hexproof.
-) Bonus points if it brings an extra body(ies) to the table, either via recursion or tokens.
-) Bonus points if it has haste.
-) Bonus points if it has lifelink or vigilance.
-) Bonus points if it is GSZ enabled.
Thragtusk I already did.
Wurmcoil passes 2, 3, and 5.
Ruric Thar passes 2, 5, and 6.
I consider creatures passing three categories to be playable. At that point it comes down to choosing what creatures you want to run for your specific list. Bear in mind that Ruric's ability can hurt us as well as the opponent.
@Kanti: I'm sure plenty of people are still playing it. Keep in mind that the thread cycles between versions frequently depending on what versions the more vocal posters are currently working on. Just because nobody is talking about it does not mean that it's out of favor :)
I like Ruric in my Pfire! He's mostly like a "double rhino" against decks with white.
Red decks usually needs two spells to deal with him.
Black and blue needs one spell but... how many bounce opp could draw? TEAM can Snuff him but 10 life hurts, he's abow dismember.
And palyed at 3-4 turn against combos often gives us at least turn and virtualy 12 damage. That gives 7-9 cards from Ad nauseam untill draw removal.
Hoveawer he's mostly weak against tribals so it's small drawback to play just after deed!
It's always depending on Your playstyle ;)
EDIT: And he is zenithable!
Arian, would you post a recent decklist of it please? Last I see is one from 2013, which in all likelyhood is probably still pretty good as Scapeshift is more combo, and linear decklists don't always change all that much. Can someone shed some light on the 3 DRS/3 Vet split? Would this be better for Scapeshift, or do I want more Vets to get more lands?
Also is Slaughter Games in the main really needed? Seems a bit more of an sb card to me. Here's a list off the top of my head, tell what you guys think;
24
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Dryad Arbor
13
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragturk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicous Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Scapeshift
15
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thoughtsieze
1 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstorm Pulse
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
2 ???
There some posts about Scape not to long ago in this thread.
Back to Punishing Fires:
Slaughter Games maindeck improves MU against Both Storm as Show and Tell based decks. Plus that while Miracles is weak against the card it is not bad against any MU. But it is a meta call. I wouldn't do that if your meta is infested with fair.dec
I recently played with Ruric Thar in the 6 drop slot. I was able to resolve it once vs DnT. And at the time i casted it (thru GSZ) i would have been able to block a Flickerwhisp with both Jitte (0 counters) as SoLaS, but he topped a SoFaI. My only out was a PDeeds (which was revealed on top with Courser after i shuffled from the GSZ) and i was @ 6 life with no sacrifice outlet for Ruric.....
The other games i played was ANT 4-1 record in 2 matches (2-0 / 2-1, different opponents). All of the games where decided before i was able to cast Ruric Thar. In all the MU's the combination of discard, extraction and Slaughter Games where what won me the games. Where the latter sealed it. You basicly win if your able to stall the game until you reach the point to cast Slaughter Games. Thragtusk closed the games fast to. Gaining 5 life vs storm is a thing and a 5 beater is nothing to sneeze at. DRS and Scooze are miracle workers here to.
The other matches i played with Ruric was Reanimator and Necrotic Ooze combo. 1-2 loss vs Reanimate. G1 t1 on the play he goes petal, land, entomb, reanimate, GBeez, sjees, scoop.
G2 i won thru therapy/veteran into GSZ Scooze and with some solid backup on hand + liliana. G3 i had T1 GSZ, he went t2 GBeez. On my T2 i played PNeedle naming GBeez. He activated 2 times in respons. He didnt draw counters, but he was able to outrace my T3 Liliana and followon REB on Sphinx with a total of 4 monsters...
Vs Oozing i played 0-2. He had magical Christmas going T1 combo and T2 combo... If your meta is infested with Oops, TinFins and this kind of stuff i would suggest adding 1-2 Surgical Extraction to at least have some interaction...
So conclusion for Ruric (for now), while it would have sealed the games against combo it is to slow (nothing new here) and vs non-combo i preferred to have Broodmate Dragon instead (well at least in that specific situation). I still would like to find out how Ruric goes vs Delver, Stoneblade and Miracles.
Kessig Wolf Run + Treetop Village + Primeval Titan. Versus fair.dec: At first glance it looks solid, but why do i want more beaters when i already have beaters? The thing i want is utility. PrimeTime could deliver utility in the form of fetching more Groves/Red mana, or the Two Towers, but often at that point i already have 6-7 lands. What i want to add to the deck is utility to achieve full board control. A Kessig Wolf Run to have 8/4 Thrun with Trample that wins the game when a 4/4 Thrun cannot is not what i am trying to achieve with the deck. The real question for me is: why is a 4/4 Thrun not winning the game and how do i solve that situation?
Volrath's Stronghold can keep you in the game while recurring stuff like DRS, Thragtusk or Eternal Witness, which eventually leads to a board state where your opponent can't possibly win from. We could replace Phyrexian Tower for Treetop Village. While i can see Treetop function in the deck, the thing that sometimes is relevant vs combo is Phyrexian Tower. Doing the ultimate T1 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize/REB, into T2 Tower, Veteran Explorer, Slaughter Games happens.
Last edited by Bobmans; 05-17-2015 at 07:20 AM.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
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