(cross-posting from Salvation)
Merfolk was my first legacy deck when I entered the format in fall 2013. I plan to bring it back for SCG WORCESTER as it lines up well against the decks I want to beat.
I am pulling Merfolk out because I want to crush miracles & omnitell, while still having good game against Delver decks.
With that in mind, list:
4 Cursecatcher
2 Cosi's Trickster
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the pearl trident
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Phantasmal Image
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Merrow Reejerey
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
13 Island
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Sower of temptation
3 Gut Shot
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Null Rod
Main critiques I'm looking to discuss:
with this setup, what are my weaknesses that other sideboard packages fix? And where is my sideboard making me extremely favored?
The Merrow Reejerey is there just to be creature 29 instead of spell 11 (2nd repeal.) Is 28 plenty or maybe a better creature slot?
I'm doubling down on Kiras because I want to counter red Delver decks. Are there better/additional options?
Glad to discuss any other choices made in this list.
Someone just went 4-0 two days in a row on MTGO with the following 75:
20 LANDS
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
26 CREATURES
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Cursecatcher
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Vendilion Clique
8 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
6 OTHER SPELLS
3 Æther Vial
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SIDEBOARD
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth
1 Submerge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ensnare
2 Back to Basics
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
No small feat!
He finds the space for maindeck Vial, Chalice and Clique (which I agree about), and even Daze and Jitte (which I'm less sure about). Comments? Seems geared to beat Miracles and Omnitell. I was thinking to play something similar for GP Lille (although with a more streamlined sideboard).
That is "my" listOriginally Posted by dinosaurus
-1 Daze, -1 Image for +1 land and +1 Chalice.
Yes, that is antiMiracles list. If you need to beat that deck this is it.
I am in no way surprised he did great.
@TrevaBlues
Try the list dinosaurus suggested (or mine), those are more streamlined and powerful (in my objective opinion).
Our deck is still Vial deck even if you remember every late drawn Vial (or one too many).
It allows our Image to copy Emrakul/Progenitus/Craterhoof... when it is convenient to us or we can leave Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/whatever mana while advancing our board.
Some people tried without it (me included), wasn't worth it.
Thanks, I do like your list I just hated vial because you only want it in your opener. Should we really be on 3?
I echo this. Three is precarious for having it in the opener. I think two chalice is defendable, but I personally can't bring vial down to four.
I've never lost a sanctioned match (and pretty much no games, sanctioned or otherwise) against Miracles, and my list looks nothing like yours (no chalice, Wasteland and Spell Pierce and Standstill, 20 creatures). I don't think that makes yours the "anti-Miracles" list, or that you need to look like that to beat Miracles. I think Merfolk just beats Miracles.That is "my" list
-1 Daze, -1 Image for +1 land and +1 Chalice.
Yes, that is antiMiracles list. If you need to beat that deck this is it.
I am in no way surprised he did great.
Merfolk does...until they start packing peacekeeper.
I can't say that as certain thing, but it works for me and few others. Everyone should decide for themselves.
I know we beat it, but you never lost a game?
As is, my list have the most Miracles hate of all versions that I saw. It wasn't made to be "the" anti-Miracles, just good all around. That said, I am looking forward to meeting Schöneggers and Lossetts of the world when I play GP with it.
Funny anecdote, I just bought plane tickets to GP Lille, went to organizer's main page and saw the playmat we are going to get:
http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/media...fichier161.jpg
The irony.
Echoing Truth
That's going to be exciting, good luck! I'll look out for you of course.
Just did some more catching up and am far more liking your list. I know there's been some discussion on standstill but it's varied. I really want to run some if I'm running vials and dazes.
edit: I get to play 4 rounds at my LGS tonight which has a great legacy scene so I'm excited to test run something &
Last edited by TrevaBlues; 05-18-2015 at 09:55 AM. Reason: removed a line because I saw FANAttIC post from salvation
I am on 2 Daze plan and 21 lands.
13 + 3 + 3 + 2.
Just didn't felt correcting that
As for Standstill, that thing asks for different playstyle and deck build. I played with that for a few times and never returned to it.
Not my cup of tea.
Thanks I also saw one of your posts from Salvation that better informed me of your thoughts.I am on 2 Daze plan and 21 lands.
13 + 3 + 3 + 2.
Just didn't felt correcting that
As for Standstill, that thing asks for different playstyle and deck build. I played with that for a few times and never returned to it.
Not my cup of tea.
I think I'm going with this main tonight:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the pearl trident
4 Silvergill Adept
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
3 Phantasmal Image
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
1 Echoing Truth
2 Daze
2 Standstill
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
2 Wasteland
13 Island
Sideboard
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Sower of temptation
3 Gut Shot
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
Torn between
4th Phantasmal Image vs 1st Sygg
3rd Standstill vs 1st Echoing Truth
Another list than went 4-0 on mtgo:
Creature (25)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
Instant (6)
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
Artifact (4)
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Other (4)
4 Aether Vial
Land (21)
3 Cavern of Souls
12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Mutavault
1 Wasteland
3 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Submerge
2 Swan Song
The deck appears to finally live to its potential!
This is a very similar build to the previous lists, except for the inclusion of wasteland. I personally like Mutavault too much to cut one (I even like a couple of factories).
I like the sideboard better, although I'd prefer a couple of Relics over some Submerge.
The results of the Vial/Chalice/Clique MD build seems strong, and I personally really like how it plays. I also like the 21st land. I also think I'd rather play something like Dismember over the maindeck Jitte. I'm going back and forth on Daze in a deck without wasteland though... I'm having trouble deciding whether I want to play some at the GP....
Someone asked earlier: I feel like 25 creatures + manlands is enough. I would play Clique over Reejerey, and consider Factory as an alternative to something like Cosi's trickster.
Thanks to everyone!
Didn't say I've never lost a game, but I have never lost a match, and I've played against Miracles in dozens of sanctioned matches over the last two years. Generally I only lose when they sneak in a fast (before turn five or six) Entreat when I'm not prepared for it and steal the game, and that has never happened to me twice in a match. If you think Chalice of the Void is good against Miracles, wait until you cast Standstill. Aether Vial turns all of your creatures into Mutavaults and there's no way they can beat that, particularly when you get to draw three cards every time they try to Swords to Plowshares one of your guys. It's just the way Merfolk functions, which happens to be a weakness of Miracles gameplan; Miracles isn't set up to beat a deck that can put five or six power worth of guys into play every endstep.
I think you should build and play whatever you want. It just seems odd to me that you're cutting or shaving cards that are traditionally good against Miracles (Standstill, Aether Vial and counterspells) for cards that don't do a whole lot against Miracles (Chalice of the Void, Echoing Truth and Umezawa's Jitte) and for cards that force you into over-extending into Terminus and Supreme Verdict (mostly just having many more creatures, but specifically multiple Phantasmal Image which is a card that's only good against Miracles when you already have at least one creature in play), all while claiming that you're improving the Miracles matchup, which, again, is not a matchup that needs improving. Instead, you're turning Terminus into a 4+ for 1 instead of a 2 for 1 that draws the opponent three cards, and by cutting cards that can interact with Counterbalance (Daze and Spell Pierce) for Chalice of the Void you are turning one of the biggest non-factors in their deck into a relevant threat. Basically, you're making the deck more linear by removing flexible cards for inflexible duplicate cards which is something that is exploitable by good players playing good decks. You will still beat Miracles a large percentage of the time, but it's in spite of, not because of, the changes you've made.
@TrevaBlues I'm curious how 2 Standstills works out. With my limited Standstill experience playing Meathooks and Merfolk, it was important to stick Vial+Standstill or Mutavault+Standstill early in the game. The longer any game goes on, the harder it gets to predict who's ahead on board, and Standstill is only useful if you're ahead. Of course, you can't drop a turn 2 Standstill if you don't have it in hand.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
A few points about your post:
I don't see Miracles Swords-ing one of your guys when you have Standstill out, unless doing so prevents them from instantly losing. Postboard, it probably makes sense for them to remove Swords in favor of cards like Explosives and Supreme Verdict, especially if you cast Standstill game 1.
That you list Chalice as doing little is odd to me. I count Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, Blasts, StP: roughly half of their non-land cards blanked with a single Chalice. You also say that your few losses against Miracles are from early angels, yet discount the utility of Echoing Truth. I'd actually consider Truth to be at least as important in a Standstill build, because bouncing their permanents on their end step is a classic set up to dropping Standstill on your turn.
Just because you have more creatures doesn't mean you have to overextend, even with Image. If you have an Image, combining with Lord or Nemesis still puts 6 power onto the field with just two cards.
Does Fanatic run "many more" creatures? Seems like 25, which is pretty reasonable for tribal aggro. What changes would you suggest to slim that down?
Relatedly, Image's requirement can be a liability, but Image isn't in the deck to fight miracles Miracles. I'd be fine giving up some of our edge against Miracles by running 3-4 Images, as it is so effective in other situations.
Definitely! I'm not saying that Standstill is necessarily bad. But your arguments again the Chalice build don't convince me.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
If Miracles doesn't use Swords to Plowshares against me, they will lose. They often don't have a choice.
Of the list of cards you've put there for Chalice stopping, the only card that matters is Swords to Plowshares. Sure, Chalice is generally good against basically every deck in the format, but I'm not interested in what cards it stops, but what cards it stops that actually matter. I'm also not going to rely on a one-of Echoing Truth to stop Angels when I've got Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Daze (and postboard, potentially Flusterstorm and Envelop) to fight that card. If you're fighting over Entreat, if you lose you may still have time to win and their mana is necessarily constrained, so the fight will be easier for you. If you're trying to win a fight over Echoing Truth, your mana is the one that is constrained and if you lose the fight, you lose the game. But I have lost so rarely to Miracles that this is a silly point.
If you have more creatures, your choices are to either over-extend, or just sit there and do nothing. I'd rather drop a Standstill against Miracles than a third creature. Most of the time I'd rather play Standstill than a second one. I personally play 18-20 creatures, and will never play more than 21, because doing so means that I have enough non-creatures to actually play an aggro-control game rather than a straight aggro game.
Again, it's fine for you to play whatever you want. What is odd to me is making changes that harm the Miracles matchup but to then claim that you are improving it.
We may just have to agree to disagree, but I'll give it one more try.
First, I find it odd that you don't seem concerned about Top, which Miracles players regularly say is the most powerful card in their deck. Top finds their sweepers and casts them at instant speed, which for a deck packing even 20 creatures should be of concern, especially since some such as Nemesis are protected from targeted removal.
The power of Echoing Truth is not that you rely on it to bounce angels, but rather that it's an additional out even if you lose the counter war over Entreat. This is in addition to bouncing Top/etc. before playing Chalice/Standstill to make it more difficult for them to find answers.
There's a middle-ground between overextending and doing nothing. You can still put them on a decent clock while holding back enough creatures to repopulate after a Terminus.
Regarding card choices affecting matchups, I find Clique and Chalice to have very good utility against Miracles. Echoing Truth can be useful against pretty much any deck, and Jitte admittedly has little purpose in this matchup. If you disagree with that assessment, I guess we'll have to live with that difference of opinion.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
What I am saying, very simply, is that a control deck will always be favored against an aggro deck, but an aggro-control deck will always have the edge against a control deck. By removing counterspells and Standstill and adding Chalice and more creatures, you are moving Merfolk from aggro-control to chalice-aggro. And that is fine if that is what you want to do, but to suggest that you are making the deck better against control by moving from aggro-control to an aggro variant is false. I am not saying that you cannot beat Miracles with the deck as it has been constructed. That would be ridiculous. I am saying that you are weakening the Miracles matchup, both strategically and tactically, with the choices that you are making in the deckbuilding phase. That may well be something you can live with, and that is fine. It is your call. And playing Chalice and Echoing Truth may well help you out in lots of other matchups, but that is irrelevant to the discussion of the Miracles matchup. But on a fundamental level, removing counterspells and Standstill from this deck to add in creatures makes you more linear and more likely to run into issues with sweepers, because rather than presenting a solid clock and then punishing them with Standstill, you can only a) present the same clock and then get no value when they Terminus or b) add to the clock and make Terminus even better against you. You can certainly hold creatures in your hand so you don't just lose to a Terminus, but then you're giving up tempo by not using your mana every turn which further increases the damage that Terminus does to you. At least when you are doing that with a Standstill in play, you will either win the game or get paid off when they break the Standstill. With no Standstill, you just give up tempo for no gain.We may just have to agree to disagree, but I'll give it one more try.
First, I find it odd that you don't seem concerned about Top, which Miracles players regularly say is the most powerful card in their deck. Top finds their sweepers and casts them at instant speed, which for a deck packing even 20 creatures should be of concern, especially since some such as Nemesis are protected from targeted removal.
The power of Echoing Truth is not that you rely on it to bounce angels, but rather that it's an additional out even if you lose the counter war over Entreat. This is in addition to bouncing Top/etc. before playing Chalice/Standstill to make it more difficult for them to find answers.
There's a middle-ground between overextending and doing nothing. You can still put them on a decent clock while holding back enough creatures to repopulate after a Terminus.
Regarding card choices affecting matchups, I find Clique and Chalice to have very good utility against Miracles. Echoing Truth can be useful against pretty much any deck, and Jitte admittedly has little purpose in this matchup. If you disagree with that assessment, I guess we'll have to live with that difference of opinion.
Wow, heated debate! :)
It's nice to hear your experiences and both of you have good points. In the end, the Miracles matchup is very good, and we have so many good cards against them, no need to argue too long which one is the absolute best I guess... ;)
No doubt, Standstill is an absolute house against them. I've played often with the card recently, and it's hands down the best card, you can't draw enough of them!
But don't downplay chalice either. I was not a fan of the card against miracles initially, but it's much better than what I originally thought. Blanking swords, top and pyroblast is quite good, given how few of their other cards matter. Preventing them from Terminus at instant speed is huge, and Chalice is really just a super Pithing Needle. Whether you need the card to beat them, the answer is clearly no: you're totally right about this :)
I often bring one truth in for insurance (peacekeeper, moat, helm/RIP), on top of dealing with entreat if necessary. Not crucial, but can be okay to have one card like this in your deck.
As a of now, I'm back to playing chalice over standstill, because i eventually found to like it more in most matchups. Standstill was also super good when everyone was playing young pyromancer and combo was pushed out of the meta. But the card is still so powerful, I won't think it's wrong to play it.
Chalice blanks half of their spells. Calling it a card that don't do a whole lot against Miracles is misinformed.
Top, Swords and Pyroblast are very relevant against us, with Top being the most important card in their deck.
Brainstorm puts Terminus and Entreat on top. Stopping Ponder is nor here nor there.
Echoing Truth is counter against Entreat, huge tempo swing if they are on Batterskull plan or saves TNNs (or whatever I am "overextending" with) against Terminus. You can even Target their Top in response to its second ability, which delays any Miracle spell for a turn. If I bounce Top when I have Chalice on one they are not winning anymore. This is only a small number of examples what Truth can do.
Image can become Mutavault if I fear Terminus. Or their Clique.
Jitte isn't there to fight them. I have built a deck that can have good matchup against big decks like Miracles, Elves and Delver Decks, while covering graveyard and combo decks from the sideboard.
I looked at the last bigger legacy event (just copy the whole link) :
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...deckshow.php?t[T2]=3&event_ID=45&feedin=&start_date=05%2F15%2F2015&end_date=05%2F17%2F2015&city=&state=TX&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]
Chalice covers majority of them. Try playing Standstill against Storm or Delver.
You are drawing Vial about 40ish % in opening hand and the same percentage is for Standstill if you have playsets of both in your deck. The times when you have both are not overlaping that often.
Standstill Merfolk deck with 20 creatures is a deck that tries to win the match very late in the game (two creatures on average in opening hand and Mutavault attacks under Standstill will not crush anyone with speed).
I am not convinced that you have the best late game deck in legacy. This all happens with Dazes and Spell Pierces in hand which lose value since both players are doing land, go.
Other decks are doing more powerful things than us and that is the reason I don't see Standstill version doing better than Chalice one.
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