Howdy All,
I'm a long time Miracles and UWr Stoneblade player finally making my way into esper.
I'm trying to figure out my manabase given some budget concerns as well as the benefit I gain from being able to run back to basics as my meta is chock full of greedy manabases with decks like shardless BUG and Bant, and Deathblade.
For now the set-in-stone lands are:
4 strand
4 delta
2 flats
2 tundra
1 underground
1 scrubland
1 karakas
3 island
1 plains
1 swamp
putting me at 20. Ive been running basically this manabase for UWr (swapping the black sources with red) but that deck is a little be more in the midrange role also playing 4 ponders.
I think 22 total is where I want to be for more pure control deck such as esper. But what do I fill these 2 slots with?
Academy Ruins
Tarpit?
More basics?
I can see benefits to running tarpit and ruins, but that also pulls me farther out of the strong basic land manabase.
The black splash in the MD involves 3 thoughtseize, 1 IoK, and 3 Lingering souls. I can go up to 6 discard post board with 2 cabal therapy.
Thoughts?
Are you running double white spells, like verdict or council's judgment? I would think at least 1 more basic, but what are you cutting for that 22nd land? Being able to cast a dig through time through your own back to basics and an opponent's leyline of the void/rest in peace is a beautiful thing.Originally Posted by Ltj999
I am curious, how are the 4 ponders working for you? Would you mind posting your list?
I don't like the aggro version because I don't like Gitaxian Probe but Pyro-blade is strong.
I'm a Miracle player and i like more control.
The choise is based on your preferences and/or meta.
Imho Snapcaster can duplicate or Plowshares and Lightning Bolt, and give us more control.
Vendilion Clique and Jace conclude our control setting.
Foundamentally is a game's style dependant choise imho.
Sure!
This is my UWr list.
Creatures [10]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [20]
2 Counterspell
2 Dig Through Time
2 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [4]
4 Ponder
1 C-Judgment
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [20]
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Tundra
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 mountain
4 Flooded Strand
As for my esper build I'm planning on running a verdict main and a C-judgment in the SB most likely. If I don't run academy ruins/ee combo I'll prolly run another judgment in the main.
I think at this point its a decision between tarpit and one open md slot, and academy/EE combo.
- Mike
Lately I've been playing a UWR version of this deck.
22 lands (4 Tundra, 3 Volc, 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Karakas, 11 Fetch)
4 SFM
3 Snapcaster (was previously -1 Snap +1 Clique)
2 TNN
1 V-Clique
1 Bskull
1 Jitte
4 LBolt
3 StP
2 C. Judgment
4 FoW
4 Bstorm
3 DTT
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, TMS
SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Containment Priest
2 Blood Moon
2 Sudden Demise
3 Surgical Extraction (should possibly be -1 SE, +1 RiP or GCage)
1 Sword of F&F
1 Baneslayer Angel
The SB could be adjusted, but I am fairly happy with the maindeck. I actually tested 4 Ponders by cutting the DDT and a fetchland, but found that the +1 card advantage that DTT grants (and the instant speed) is superior in this kind of shell. If I were to make adjustments I would try to fit in some Meddling Mage and perhaps a Disenchant-effect (Wear//Tear, Seal of Disenchant, etc.). Elspeth or Keranos might be good too for beating Miracles. Maybe Sulfur Elemental if you see a fair bit of DnT.
Sudden Demise is great as a sideboard sweeper as its typically one-sided and doesn't require as much mana investment as Supreme Verdict. Pyroclasm is fine instead, but there are scenarios where you wished it didn't hit your own guys or could hit for a little bit more damage.
You do occasionally get some awkward opening hands with this deck, but generally games progress smoothly and there aren't too many resolved permanents that just end the game for you since you have access to maindeck Council's Judgment (+Snapcasting it again). This is the closest I would ever want to come towards playing a Miracles-esque deck, because I'm a proponent of the adage, "There are no bad threats, just bad answers." Having the option of being the aggressor tends to win you more games than playing more reactively (at least in my experience). You still gain access to most of the same UWR tools used by Miracles, except you don't have to drag games into time round after round.
My list looks similar. Ill post it after class with my explanations.
My board is very similar but I'm trying to figure out the sweeper slots. Right now I have 1 EE, which I want because it is strong against Miracles and very versatile while still being strong against decks against which you would want Sudden Demise (Taxes, Elves...). The other card I'm considering that I haven't seen mentioned much is Izzet Staticaster. It's also a house vs Taxes and Elves, plus it's strong vs Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer and Storm (EtW, Xantid Swarm, Confidant, Young Pyro). Where has Sudden Demise shined that Staticaster wouldn't get it done?
Actually Staticaster would be a good option. I also think EExplosives are a fine choice, and the deck could probably even find room for a singleton Academy Ruins.
The main thing in favor of Demise over these alternatives is that you can Snap it back, and that it can also be one-sided. Really, there are pros and cons to every option and it largely depends on circumstance.
My own personal preference is that if you want to run esper, Deathblade is better. It makes your turn 1 plays less awkward, as you can, for example, fetch a black source (usually an Underground Sea), play a Deathrite, and on turn 2 you can still make most color combinations, all while having some resilience to Wasteland (though obviously, Wasteland + removal while on the draw can blow you out). While you can run basics in Deathblade, not enough to ever consider Back to Basics.
With a non-Deathrite esper list, you run into scenarios where you want to cast a T1 Thoughtseize but you also want to be able to cast both blue and white spells on T2, and a Wasteland from the opponent can be much more damaging in these scenarios because it will put you off a color. And of course, things get even more awkward the more basics you add to your deck, increasing the chances of you drawing the wrong color.
At any rate, I think you can play at least 2 Ponders and still go down to 20-21 lands, especially if you're willing to drop the idea of a colorless utility land like Ruins. Ponder is never a dead card, unlike drawing extra lands and waiting for a Brainstorm.
Of the utility lands, I think Ruins is preferable for what you want to do over Tar Pit, as recycling lost equipment in the long game is generally stronger than an unblockable 3/2 for 4 mana every turn that eats removal and is never seen again.
This deck finished highly at the last SCG.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=85142
What I am curious about is what matchups he sided in Nahiri the Lithomancer, and if he felt it was good enough to include it in the sideboard again. I suppose it might be good against Miracles as at 5 it could be less chance to Counterbalance, hard to get rid of, makes a steady supply of dudes to nerf Terminus and Supreme Verdict, and can also get the odd equipment back from the grave that was countered. Maybe protects against Discard in other matchups if there is some other reason for putting her in.
I don't have tested Nahiri.
Imho is good vs discard effect, miracle and deck who control our manabase.
The list is very good.
I don't like the manabase:
- 20 lands imho are few but 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm are enough to find the land;
- 3 basics imho are few for Blood Moon
But Kevin Jones make a great result with this deck!
Congratulation man, very good job!
I played a UWR list to a 9-5-1 record at SCG Worcester good for T64.
R1: Miracles w/4x Mentor and Daze(!!) 2-0
R2: Burn 2-1
R3: Grixis Devler 2-0
R4: UBr Tezz 2-0
R5: Imperial Painter 2-1
R6: Sneak & Show 2-1
R7: Elves (Andrew Jessup) 2-1
R8: Lands 0-2
R9: BUG Devler 1-2
R10: TES (Bryant Cook) 0-2
R11: Miracles (Reid Duke) 0-2
R12: Deathblade 2-0
R13: Miracles 1-1
R14: Storm 2-0
R15: Miracles 1-2
The deck has decent game against the field but Miracles is a real slog. Against Reid in G1 I resolved Jace under Counter/Top and ramped it to 13 before he found REB + Force. In G2 I kept Counterbalance off the table and got wrecked by Entreat. In R13 my opponent was playing off the top and I was two attack steps away from killing him with Clique(?). He drew and cast Ponder and kept. I attacked him to 3(?) and then on my End Step went for Dig. I Forced, he went for Entreat on his draw step and I lost (maybe/probably punted by countering Dig?). G2 True-Name got there and G3 was really up in the air when time was called. In R15 I played against the Cavern of Souls build and Cavern + Venser + Karakas feels unwinnable. G1 I ramped Jace to 13 AGAIN and actually resolved it but he Entreated in response and killed me in the two draw steps he had. G2 he didn't have access to red and had 3 blasts in hand. G3 I had all the hate I wanted (Needle, Spell Snare, Meddling Mage) but it still wasn't close because of Cavern. At one point I had True-Name plus Meddling Mage on Verdict with Force in hand. He cast StP on Meddling Mage and I opted not to Force so maybe that was wrong in hindsight considering he then cast Verdict?
I also know that ramping Jace is usually wrong because when I played Miracles I would love to have my opponents +2 their Jace while I searched for a red blast, but in G1 (where some lists don't play REB maindeck) and my only out to CounterTop is Council's Judgment it's a real toss up. Do I try to Jace-brainstorm my way to my singleton out or give him 6 turns to find his 2-4 outs? Feels like a lose-lose.
Overall True-Name really overperformed but I still wouldn't want more than 2. I played awful at times and the deck bailed me out in a few matches. I'm still not sure the Miracles matchup is salvageable though. More Engineered Explosives in the board could help as it answers Counterbalance and Entreat, but if Cavern gets widely adopted then forget it.
I try to make room for a second Wear/Tear when possible. I find that helps some against Miracles . I haven't fought the Venser/Cavern version yet though.
I'd bring her in just about anywhere you'd bring in Elspeth. She's good in grindy matches and decks that can discard, decay, or otherwise destroy your equipment.
I'm not yet convinced she's better than Elspeth, though, as the latter can land at 4cmc and can win singlehandedly pretty quickly if unanswered.
I think 20 is fine when you're playing 4 Ponders.20 lands imho are few but 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm are enough to find the land
So I made my fouth Top8 in a row and recently Top4'ed the Lille GPT Danish Legacy Masters.
I can say that I feel very confidant choosing
Jeskai Blade at the current meta for every tournament.
The list I played and the Top8 from Copenhagen:
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/20281#287138
Creature [9]
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instant [23]
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery [5]
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
Artifact [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umejawa's Jitte
Land [20]
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
Planeswalker [1]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Blood Moon
I lost in the quarterfinal to Hans Jacob Goddik with BURg Delver the winner of the tournament.
I'm thinking about writing a report but what is more important in this post is,
that I played at GPT Eternal Clash http://eternal-clash.com in Flensburg, Northern Germany with the same list
and found myself loosing two times (first round and last round) against RUG Delver with Nimble Mongoose which is why I only finished 12th place.
BURg/RUG Delver with Nimble Mongoose is one of the reasons why I changed some of the Maindeck and Sideboard cards:
Creature [10]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis (-1)
2 Vendilion Clique (+2)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instant [19]
0 Spell Snare (-1)
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time (-1)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt (-2)
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery [5]
0 Council's Judgment (-1)
1 Supreme Verdict (+1)
4 Ponder
Artifact [5]
1 Batterskull
1 Umejawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives (+1)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (+2)
Land [20]
0 Plateau (-1)
0 Polluted Delta (-1)
1 Academy Ruins (+1)
1 Karakas (+1)
1 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
Planeswalker [1]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard [15]:
0 Vendilion Clique (-1)
0 Engineered Explosives (-1)
0 Supreme Verdict (-1)
0 Surgical Extraction (-1)
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer (haven't tested it out yet, but Kevin Jones Top8'ed with it so I might give it a try)
1 Council's Judgment (+1)
1 Spell Snare (+1)
1 Red Elemental Blast (+1)
2 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Blood Moon
-Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins is currently my best way fighting Nimble Mongoose.
-Upgrading Clique to Maindeck + Karakas feels like an improvement and should be standard now that everyone is playing OmniTell.
-Decreasing Dig Through Time to only 2 copys feels akward but most of the time Dig Through Time is the worst card in the opener/early game. Since I cut down spells and one Polluted Delta
and added Divining Top and Clique we have also less spells to delve away.
-Adding 2 Sensei's Divining Top to the Maindeck really smooth out the draws and the lategame. I tried a list with 4 Lightning Bolts and 4 Terminus and Counterbalance maindeck but it just feels like a weaker Miracles.dec IMO. Top is also very good against Liliana of the Veil which I also found myself loosing to most of the times against BUG variants.
I'd like to hear what you think about it. I really look forward to improving this deck.
Regards,
screallix
It's a shame losing to Choke. I can't tell why Lands needs that enchantment. That deck is already good against various Blue based decks.
Sideboard-slot waste IMO
For blade decks, isn't lingering souls where you want to be against miracles? Force of will, discard and meddling mage seem good against combo. I feel Esper could be in a good place right now.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I played an esper-hybrid build at SCG Worcester. I run Bitter Blossom instead of Lingering Souls, but yes BB plus Elspeth was AMAZING against my Miracles match up. I only fought 1 Miracles match the whole day though and it wasn't until round 9. I lost round 2 and round 3 both to burn. It hasn't been stated but I personally counted 14 burn decks in scouting for the event and I think Burn was widely represented. Unfortunately my esper build isn't a great match up with Burn! Elidon is freaking insane! I did make a meta call and put Chill in the sideboard and got 1 game in both rounds due to Chill.
I went Cannonist for my hate bear slots but can see meddling mage probably being better. Cannonist did win me round 1 against ANT though.
my tournament went like this.
Round 1 ANT (2-1 win) Rode Cannonist and Swords on Swarm to victory....
Round 2 Burn (1-2 loss) as with most burn match ups, I tried got him down but was 1 to 2 turns away from activating Jitte and stabalizing. Eildonon helped him tremendously! Chill from the board with the ability to E Tutor for it won me gain 2!
Round 3 Burn (1-2 loss) again pretty much exactly as described in previous post!
Round 4 Pox (1-1-1 draw) to much to sacrifice to edict effects and I won game 1 off of Myth Realized swings! I mulled down to 5 and he tore my hand apart for game 2 ( I need to get better at conceding early so I can get the match instead of waiting for the kill!!). Game 3 I would have had him but ran out of time!
Round 5 BUG (2-0 win) my deck is EXTREMELY strong against this match up and it showed! B.B. is a house racing goyfs and D.R.S. I also won game 2 by a 7/7 Myth Realized swinging for win under a standstill! lol Myth Realized actually did a lot of work.
Round 6 Cloudpost (0-2 loss) This deck tore me to shreds!!! I survived past an emerkul attack but couldn't really do anything against this deck.... I need to study it and figure out a plan of attack against it in case I see it again!
Round 7 JUNK (2-0 win) Wasn't really sure what he was trying to do for a while but powered past Lilliana and Deathright and Goyf and won this match up. I think This is alot like the BUG match up for me. I felt in control the whole time!
Round 8 Death and Taxes (1-2 loss) games were extremely close, but both games he got the win while I was trying to get to a STP or TNN, and a Mirran Crusader went to TOWN on me!! I got 1 game again off the back of Myth Realized being a 6/6!
Round 9 Miracles (1-1-1 draw) just didn't have enough time to finish him off in game 3. I dropped humility and had an ultimate emblem from Elspeth. At the end of Round 9 we both made misplays and got a judge issue a warning for maintaining game state and honestly we were both tired!!!! His deck was BEAUTIFUL and completely altered though!!! Props to you if you read this cause the Deadpool Force of Will is OMG sweet!!
After the tournament I have decided to take out 1 spell pierce to go to 2 and bump Myth Realized up to 2 (he seemed very good in this tournament especially if standstill hit right after!). I also am taking out Engineered Explosives in the board for an extra E. Tutor.... Not sure I really need E.E. against anything. Unfortunately for the StarCity Columbus event in a couple weeks I think I have to leave Chill in the board cause burn really did tear me a freaking new one!
Lands use Choke vs Miracle and Omnitell.
In any case we need to side in Disenchant or Wear Tear vs Lands.
They have some Artifact and Enchantment very strong vs Blande.
OMG
You have find a non common meta, bro (ps: you have a pm)
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