I keep hearing that "The Gate" has good matchups against various highly played legacy decks. It makes me laugh, if that deck could beat anything people would play it.Originally Posted by MGB
When it comes to real decks people play, Finn hit it on the nose, DnT wants no part of Punishing Jund or non-blue combo decks like Elves or Belcher.
I disagree a bit with your words, Finn.
Firstly, I do not consider Jund a really bad matchup. It is really close I think. It is difficult to deal with that amount of removal but they are sensitive to Stoneforge Mystic, our flyers and Mirran Crusader (this guy plus Mother of Runes could be GG). And we board in RiP, that hurts them a lot too.
So for me All Spells/Belcher decks, Elves and Omnitell are our worst matchups. Depending on the list we can balance a bit rounds against Elves and Omnitell, but the matchup is 40-60% generally in my opinion. Infect could be one of the worst too, at least with my sideboard that have not neither Sunlance nor Gut Shot or removal of this type.
Then I disagree a lot with best matchups. Because I do not qualify Miracles, Blade and Lands like good matchups. They are balanced, but I do not consider them as good matchups. In fact, Jeskai Blade is like a nightmare. I think best matchups are Delver decks (except Jeskai Delver), Reanimator, Merfolks, Sneak & Show (without Omniscience) and Shardless BUG could be too.
I am talking about matchups with mono-white version in my mind of course.
i have a hard time with jeskai blade (mono white) - altho red splash helps a bit now. daze, spell pierce, stp, bolt, snapcasters etc. it's hard for me to gain traction when everything is being removed and then their stoneforge resolves and it's game over
Then try to run stuff that wrecks artifacts... It isn't that hard. Or emulate Elves! and use Thalia + Karakas to stop Batterskull/Jitte dead in its tracks.
Or splash black and lol-troll the shit out of it with Cabal Therapies.
It is really hard to deal TNN + Equipment for D&T, and harder unable to develop our playstyle because of removal. In our mainboard only have Phyrexian Revoker (will be bolted/plowed instead) and the option to run with flyers... They can find multiples copies of removal with lots of cantrips and the ultimate power of DTT. Those cantrips help a lot finding other bombs like Jace, the Mind Sculptor too.
I think the best way to deal with Jeskai Blade is playing Wg D&T, with tools like Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg or Choke.
Against any stoneforge-based midrange-deck: Just make sure u play the manriki-gusari in the board + 1-2 council's judgement to get rid of annoying equipments. As long as you play enough flyers (4 flickerwisps + some avengers) a lonely TNN isn't that big problem as long as it's not equipped.
Facing death- or esperblade you might get problems vs. zealous persecution... Here the red splash for magus or the green splash for chokes indead helps a lot. But IF you play a splash (green or red) always be aware that your matchup against any tempodeck with wastelands gets worse...
Obviously the results were in my favor, however any match where a mentor stuck, I got run out of town. Also, I still wanted RIP, Cataclysm sided in, so leaving in STP means i need to cut other cards. We all know that threat density is key against miracles, you NEED to have a board presence, so have +4 spells thats don't attack is pretty rough. I sided jitte and either mirran or brimaz out (depending on if I saw karakas) and 1 or more flickerwisp/serra avenger (I play a 4/2 split), but I never felt 100% behind my sideboard choices.
I guess I'm just more interested in what people are thinking is optiomal?
Is Spirit of the Labyrinth justifiable in this deck? What are people's opinions and experience on using him? Is he worth playing in the 75?
2015 SCG Washington D.C. IQ Legacy Champion - 1st place w/ Sneak and Show
Follow me on http://www.twitch.tv/dcosiem/ for Legacy on Cockatrice.
If you want to play me on Cockatrice, add me as dcosiem.
In the Treasure Cruise era, yes. But right now, I don't think it's worth it.
Like a lot of these new lists that are "top-8ing" scg are running a lot of Mirran Crusaders. I really don't think we need him that badly because flying creatures are just better strategy overall in legacy. For instance, I've beaten Bug without them recently in a competitive tournament match. I really think nowadays, our only bad match up might be either elves or omnishow. I got a secret tech i'm using against elves is Cursed Totem since most of their creatures are utility creatures. I still happen to not have an effective gameplan against Omnishow. Does anyone has had any success against omnishow?
2015 SCG Washington D.C. IQ Legacy Champion - 1st place w/ Sneak and Show
Follow me on http://www.twitch.tv/dcosiem/ for Legacy on Cockatrice.
If you want to play me on Cockatrice, add me as dcosiem.
I'm at least beating omni +50% of the time. I am playing Leonin Relic Warder and 4 canonist in the board.
Do any of you guys have any experience playing against plug There seem to be an increase of people playing it in my local meta and I have no real idea how to sideboard against it. I've been doing this: -2 Thalia, -1 Jitte, +2 Council's Judgement, +1 Ratchet Bomb. I figure that Jitte and Thalia don't really do much in this matchup, and that it's nice to have extra removal for whatever bomby creatures that they play and the ratchet bomb is pretty much for when Titania goes out of control. I figure in the postboard they take out things like chokes and bring in even more larger idiots and artifact hate. Am I thinking of this match in the right way? Are there cards that you would sideboard for this matchup? My sideboard is below for reference.
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gut Shot
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgement
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
So another 3 round tourney at the LGS last night, another 3 combo decks! First round was Elves. Running your exact 75 at the moment.
Round 1: Elves 2-1
Game 1: I got crushed.
Game 2: I mulliganed and had double Swords into Stoneforge/Jitte and murdered a lot of little green men :)
Game 3: on the draw I resolved Sudden Demise for 2 and got 5 Elves. Just like Bahra drew it up!
Round 2: Tin Fins (yikes) 2-1
Game 1: I got obliterated. He even forgot to put Emrakul back into his maindeck from the last round (no decklists so not much I could do about his error), but he still won pretty easily.
Game 2: This was a classic. I have Revoker on Griselbrand and he's down to 8. He gets Emrakul into play and hits me with it: I sac all 6 of my permanents and drop to 4 (Emrakul is mercifully exiled at end of turn). I have 2 fetchlands in hand, so I hit land drops and ramp to 3 lands with third being Karakas. Play Flickerwisp untapping Karakas. Hit him to 5 and land a Thalia. I am at 1 life now from fetches. He fetches to go to 4 life, taps out to play a 5-mana Tendrils for 1 storm (he goes up to 6 life) and I Swords my Thalia to stay at 1 (I know he has a Child of Korlis, so I need the flying Flickerwisp in play instead of Thalia). Two more swings from Flickerwisp and I get him to exactly 0 while I am at 1. Taking an Emrakul hit and having 0 permanents in play but still winning: achievement unlocked!
Game 3: My hand is great--though being on the draw in this matchup is terrifying. He mulls and isn't thrilled with his hand. I go turn 1 Needle on Griselbrand, turn 2 RIP, turn 3 Canonist, turn 4 2nd RIP, and land a Thalia later soon after. I have Vial on 3 with Flickerwisp ready as well so I can't imagine what he can do (I was ready for a Massacre).
Round 3: Sneak/Show 1-2
Game 1: I know he's on some sort of Show/Tell list, but it's tough to tell which. I see Petals and assume Sneak/Show, but I'm not sure. I Revoker Petal (which is in play) and later Revoker Sneak Attack. I have a Vial on 3 with a Fiend Hunter ready all game as well and a Karakas up. I just attack with 2 revokers over and over for the win. I didn't see much of anything from his deck, so I'm still unsure of exactly how he will abuse Show/Tell.
Game 2: I bring in the Canonists, the Needle, the Relic Warder, and I think 1 Council's Judgment. The Judgment doesn't seem good, but I had a lot of stuff to take out and I figured he might be forced to play something scary and pass the turn (like Show and Tell in an Emrakul). My draw is OK but we get into a situation where I have Fiend Hunter and Canonist in hand. He Show/Tells and I put in Fiend Hunter (still figuring Sneak/Show). He has the Omniscience and it ends poorly for me.
Game 3: This time another Show/Tell resolves and I put in Thalia over Fiend Hunter to attempt to beat Omniscience only to find he has Griselbrand this time. He resolves a Sneak Attack later as well and I don't have quite enough to get it done.
This matchup felt very scary--turns out his Omniscience came in from the board as he was on Sneak/Show. Almost every opportunity I had to guess right in the matchup by putting in certain cards with Show/Tell, I guessed wrong--which was frustrating. Maybe Bahra has some advice? Perhaps it is common for Sneak/Show to transform a bit after board and bring in another scary card in the matchup. I certainly was missing Containment Priest, Oblivion Ring and the 3rd Karakas in the 75. And I know I can't win them all, but I had crushed this same player with the mono white build a week earlier and this was probably my BEST matchup of the 3, so it hurt a bit to feel like I screwed up left/right to find a way to lose. Not seeing Thalia early in any of the 3 games didn't help either. Deck is sweet though!
The Jund matchup can be extremely difficult or practically free depending on how you build the deck. It just varies widely based on small and seemingly inconsequential card choices. If you make a conscious effort in preparing against Jund the matchup should be very easy.
There are a couple thing to keep in mind, the main one being to pay attention to the toughness of your creatures. Cut down on the X/1's in the maindeck and side more out after game 1. That usually involves getting rid of as many things like Flickerwisp and Revokers as you can afford. I also side out 2 Thalias after sideboard. 3-4 toughness fliers are beast here, like Serra Avenger and Restoration Angel. If you really want a build that destroys Jund here's the one I used a year ago when Jund was everywhere. Right now I'm playing a green splash list that has even less X/1's in the maindeck and I absolutely love how it dodges all those pesky Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecutions.
Also it's impossible for them to get rid of a Moat, so there's that if you want a free win
Sylvan Plug folds to fast pushing with fliers. You may want a full set of Serra Avenger in the main. Put emphasis on keeping hands with Vial since they have Chalice and 3Sphere. Thalia into mana denial will prevent that deck from ramping up too quickly.
The deck is very similar to Jund in how you have to tackle the matchup in terms of deckbuilding and playstyle since they have largely the same kit when it comes to removal and curve.
I think Thalia is very important here still because they have a high density of noncreature spells (they rely on GSZ) and most of the disruptive spells are also noncreature. It's much better to force them to Abrupt decay for 3 mana to gain time.
Sneak and Show siding in a couple of Omniscience is a new thing. But I have never encountered it since you're better off just playing omnitell at this point, and most of the people I play against realize that.
My first instinct is to just ignore the omniscience plan since it's much more likely that they just have a big tough guy. Other than that, I'd watch how the game shapes up and then you can hopefully tell by what your opponent is doing, and how your board looks, which plan your opponent is on and react to that.
Any chance we can get an updated primer on this deck?
Question:
Has anyone given consideration to making a G/W Death n Taxes that plays 4 Collected Company? Yes, I know it's a 4cc noncreature spell, but it still is an insanely powerful card that generates card advantage and mana advantage all in one package. This seems like one of the shells in Legacy that could support it best, given the large number of 2cc-3cc creatures with powerful ETB effects that this deck plays.
If you want a CA generator that dumps creatures into play from the library just play Yisan. He costs 1 mana less, is a creature himself, and is legendary.
Except that Collected Company puts them into play the turn you cast it, puts two into play at once, isn't vulnerable to spot removal, and does it all at instant speed.
Kind of not even a comparison - Collected Company is like 10 power levels higher than Yisan.
While CC is clearly a powerful card, it's unlikely that it fits in this deck. We should be using our land to mess with our opponents mana, or equipping, and our own key permanents make spells cost more to cast.
Perhaps something running mana dorks and less interested in creating a creature/land based prison might be a better fit? I could certainly see something that included Noble Hierarch, DRS of Veteran Explorer wanting to ramp into CC.
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