[Deck] CounterSliver

[Pinder]

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand

Oh, did I? Oops. The decklist above has been changed.

At any rate, I agree with Volt that we shouldn't drop below 17 lands. 17 is stretching it a little thin as is, and any lower would open us up to mana screw, especially in a three color deck.

I agree with you though that pulling another Serum Visions is probably better than pulling Chain of Vapor. 6 Cantrips is a little low, but we might be able to make it work.

And what do you think about upping the Call count by one? At only 2 I hardly ever see it. This could also be a good argument for cutting it, but it's close enough to Demonic Tutor in this deck that I'm hesitant to do that. It might just be that it's main purpose is to nab Winged Sliver so you can fly over for lethal once you've built up your Sliver base.

[Maverick676]

As for what to cut, I'm with you that 1 serum visions is the right call to get the deck down to 60. I still have no idea what to cut for the counterspells though.

I really think that 2 is the right number for call though, because of the mana cost you dont really want to see more than one per game if at all since its main purpose is to tutor for winged or talon sliver. I definitly wouldnt cut it for anything but living wish.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

Ive been trying to come up with a few ideas on how to beat Iggy-Pop since this matchup is horrible. At first I thought about more counters but thats not really the problem. Defense grid is what really kill this deck in the Iggy match, it prevents all your counters and stifle from doing their job, so the deck needs an answer that is not a responsive spell.


Heres what Ive thougt of:

- Tormod's crypt, sac in responce to Ill gotten gains
- Leyline of the void = GG in most cases
- Planar Void - this would require a black spash however
- Samurai of the pale curtain WW might be rough but Iggy has no land disruption so it would probably be okay. This would only prevent reccurring lion's eye though, which im not sure would be enough to stop the combo.
- Chalice for 0 - again hating on the diamond, question is would this slow iggy down enough to stop the combo?

Of all these ideas i think leyline would be the best, mulliganning down to it would be painful but if you drop this before the game starts and then mage naming their bounce it would be GG.

[scrumdogg]

As for what to cut, I'm with you that 1 serum visions is the right call to get the deck down to 60. I still have no idea what to cut for the counterspells though.

I really think that 2 is the right number for call though, because of the mana cost you dont really want to see more than one per game if at all since its main purpose is to tutor for winged or talon sliver. I definitly wouldnt cut it for anything but living wish.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

Ive been trying to come up with a few ideas on how to beat Iggy-Pop since this matchup is horrible. At first I thought about more counters but thats not really the problem. Defense grid is what really kill this deck in the Iggy match, it prevents all your counters and stifle from doing their job, so the deck needs an answer that is not a responsive spell.


Heres what Ive thougt of:

- Tormod's crypt, sac in responce to Ill gotten gains
- Leyline of the void = GG in most cases
- Planar Void - this would require a black spash however
- Samurai of the pale curtain WW might be rough but Iggy has no land disruption so it would probably be okay. This would only prevent reccurring lion's eye though, which im not sure would be enough to stop the combo.
- Chalice for 0 - again hating on the diamond, question is would this slow iggy down enough to stop the combo?

Of all these ideas i think leyline would be the best, mulliganning down to it would be painful but if you drop this before the game starts and then mage naming their bounce it would be GG.

Why not run some combination of Chalice & Crypt? Both fit right into your mana curve without disrupting either your tempo or your gameplan. They also have utility against a number of other decks. You might also consider Null Rod, which doesn't hurt you but does affect a numberof other decks, although it would mean not running Crypt obviously.

[Volt]

Why not run some combination of Chalice & Crypt? Both fit right into your mana curve without disrupting either your tempo or your gameplan. They also have utility against a number of other decks. You might also consider Null Rod, which doesn't hurt you but does affect a numberof other decks, although it would mean not running Crypt obviously.

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck. I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

[Pinder]

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck.

Yeah, when 20+ cards in the MD cost 1 mana, chalice doesn't make any sense at all. In fact, Chalice is one of the things we have to worry about.

I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

We originally had 3 MD, but we took them out for specific reasons. First, there wasn't much at 1 mana that we couldn't already deal with MD. Second, EE for 2 kills all of our dudes. Third, EE for 3 doesn't happen often, and there's not a whole lot at 3 that we need to blow up, either. It would definitely be great as an answer to Chalice at 1, though, which makes it more than a consideration for the board, and possibly even to put back in the MD.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

That is actually a really good idea. Doesn't do much for our Thresh matchup, though. Oh well.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

You have a point, but you shouldn't forget that Call is instant, so you can do it at the end of their turn. The main thing I don't like about Wish here is that you have to play it on your turn, and usually you have to wait until next turn to drop the dude. Fetching Unicorns is sexy, though. Maybe we should try them out again.

I think that Crypt is our best sideboard choice here. It doesn't hit Iggy Pop like Null Rod does, but it also hits Thresh pretty hard, which is a matchup we need to improve on as well. If Iggy Pop starts showing in full force, though, Null Rod will probably be better.

[Maverick676]

Well it sounds like crypt is the way to go for the sideboard since it improves two matchups significantly, null rod is something i am considering for my meta since white weenie with equipment seems to be on the rise, but i already use needles, so null rods might not be needed.

I definitely think that hydroblast needs to be cut from the sideboard since the goblin match is so good already, this should free up some slots for crypts/wish targets should we decide to go that route over call.

[scrumdogg]

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck. I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

I assumed we were talking about your combo matchups, which need shoring. Chalice at zero hurts Iggy, as does Chalice at one (also very good versus Solidarity & it hurts them much more than you). It should not affect you much since you would be siding out the STPs vs Iggy & probably the STPs and Chains versus Solidarity. Your solid win conditions are all 2cc, 1cc is set-up & utility. Null Rod is fine, but nothing to help your Solidarity match, Crypt is great versus Iggy & helps with Thresh but again does little to Solidarity.

[AngryTroll]

The guy that brings Slivers is a friend of mine, and we have spent many afternoons playing Slivers vs. UG Madness, RGSA, TJS, the works.

The reason he runs Vial is that it opens up a world of combat tricks and ways to dodge removal. Just having Vial in play with two counters makes opponents change their plans for combat. Instat speed Crystalline Slivers are about the best thing ever.

Running one or two Essense Slivers also helps the aggro match, and makes Vial more useful. He also runs two Fact or Fiction, which is just plain crazy.

[Pinder]

I definitely think that hydroblast needs to be cut from the sideboard since the goblin match is so good already, this should free up some slots for crypts/wish targets should we decide to go that route over call.

I completely agree. I came to the same conclusion.

Null Rod is fine, but nothing to help your Solidarity match, Crypt is great versus Iggy & helps with Thresh but again does little to Solidarity.

The thing here is, we don't really need help against Solidarity. The reason our Iggy Pop matchup is less than favorable is mainly because defense grid makes harder to keep them from going off. And that it sometimes goes off as early as turn 2. If we can keep Defense Grid off the table, Stifle owns Iggy Pop.

Now, Solidarity doesn't run MD Defense Grid, nor does it go off on turns 2-3 (It usually needs at least 4 lands). It also has to resolve High Tide to go off. So with FoW, Daze, and Stifle in the main, plus Geddons in from the board, the Solidarity matchup is already looking pretty solid.

Our problem matchups currently are Iggy Pop and Thresh. Since Crypt hits both of them, that makes it the best choice here in my opinion.

Running one or two Essense Slivers also helps the aggro match, and makes Vial more useful. He also runs two Fact or Fiction, which is just plain crazy.

How many lands are you running? Because Essence Sliver costs 4. So does FoF. From what I can tell with testing, we can hit our first 3 land drops fairly consistently, but the 4th usually takes a bit of cantriping to hit. Both of those just seem pretty expensive. And our Aggro matchup is already pretty solid.

I agree that Aether Vial needs some definite reconsidering, though.

EDIT: And with Vial, I suppose that the cost on Essence Sliver isn't too much of a problem. And we could always bounce and replay it to get it back to two counters . Maybe Essence as a 1 or 2 of as a Call target.

EDIT MORE: Or a wish target....

[Orchard]

Goas, is that you?! I'm ducksoup31 on MOTL. If it's not you, ignore this.

I must say, I'm really liking the deck!

[Maverick676]

To respond to all the discussion about improving the aggro matchup, it is not nessecary since it's great already. Stifle against fetches and chain or vapor/swords completely ruins there tempo. Plus once you stabilize with 3 or 4 slivers they cant punch throught with anything short of a darksteel collosus or something.

The matchups that do need work are the Iggy-Pop specifically (not combo in general), and thresh tormod's crypts seem like a great answer for both of these since the main deck defense grids iggy plays are difficult to stop. Since they can play them while going off.

As for running more expensive slivers i just dont see a need. Sure essence is nice but not really an essenstial sliver at all, he's 4 mana and at 17 lands thats not a reliable turn 4 drop.

In regards to Aether Vial, while this card could let me play more expensive slivers it will make chain of vapor less than great because it will now screw you over too, And I REALLY like the chains of vapor theyre just so good in any aggro matchup, plus if your land flooded it can be used for suprisingly effective combat tricks.

BTW Ive already tested Fact or Fiction and found that 17 lands just cant support it reliably.

[Volt]

Would it make sense to have a single Meddling Mage maindeck as a Call target? Also, it just doesn't seem like there's enough room for both Chain of Vapor and Stifle in the deck. Which is more important? It sounds like Pinder really likes Stifle, while Maverick really likes Chain of Vapor.

Here's the decklist I have in mind right now:


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Meddling Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
2 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meddling Mage

[Maverick676]

Volt your list looks good. I think your right about the chain of vapor/stifle issue, one needs to go. Which one I'm not sure. I think that will probably be metagame dependent. Chain is generally better against aggro, gobs being the exception, plus it provides an answer to anything that slips through the counters. Stifle is great against control, combo and specifically gobs (see pinders incredibly enthusiastic explanation)

As for maindeck mage im not so sure, its slow to come down probably not before turn 4+ with the call which might be too slow in the relevant matchups except solidarity then it would be golden game 1. Almost makes me want to go the living wish route for additional "maindeck" utility.

[Volt]

Volt your list looks good. I think your right about the chain of vapor/stifle issue, one needs to go. Which one I'm not sure. I think that will probably be metagame dependent. Chain is generally better against aggro, gobs being the exception, plus it provides an answer to anything that slips through the counters. Stifle is great against control, combo and specifically gobs (see pinders incredibly enthusiastic explanation)

As for maindeck mage im not so sure, its slow to come down probably not before turn 4+ with the call which might be too slow in the relevant matchups except solidarity then it would be golden game 1. Almost makes me want to go the living wish route for additional "maindeck" utility.

The more I think about it, the more I think I like Stifle over Chain. It's so good against wastelands, fetch lands, storm, various goblin shenanigans, and so on.

The lone maindeck Meddling Mage can come out. You're probably right about it being too slow. I also question how valuable the lone maindeck Talon sliver is. Maybe that could be relegated to the sideboard. That frees up two slots right there for Chains or something else (Pithing Needle?). I suppose you could even go with the 3 Stifle + 3 Chain of Vapor plan.


EDIT: Btw, other things Stifle is awesome against: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives

[Pinder]

I must say, I'm really liking the deck!

Well, thank you. And I'm not Goas, and I'm pretty sure Maverick isn't Goas. Volt might be Goas though. Check with him ;).

It sounds like Pinder really likes Stifle, while Maverick really likes Chain of Vapor.

Now, I really like Stifle, but I also really like Chain of Vapor. If we end up putting more targetable permanents I can see Chain leaving rather than Stifle, but as it stands, under Crystalline (and sometimes even not) Chain of Vapor is just broken in this deck. Having a one mana answer to anything that sticks to the table is just fantastic.

For a brief overview, I give you a list of the pros and cons of each:

Stifle
Pros: Well, you know. Scroll up a bit.
Cons: Doesn't do too much against Thresh or anything else static, and also isn't the best topdeck in the late game.

Chain of Vapor
Pros: Answers just about anything, from pesky creatures (a la Meddling Mage) to problem enchantments or artifacts (a la Worship/Mongoose or something silly like that).
Cons: It's good, but it's really only fantastic under Crystalline Sliver, and even then only when your only other permanents are also Slivers (and land).

So, I think it comes down to our other inclusions. I haven't tested it, but Volt's list looks pretty nice. If we run Aether Vial/Meddling Mage/other non-Sliver permanents, I think that Chain of Vapor is out, as Swords is just as good of an answer to problem creatures, and we don't see too much by way of problem enchantments.

Optimally, I'd really like to see both stay in the deck, even if it's only in limited numbers. Between cantrips and fetches, we should still be able to get them when we need them. The only question there being, which do we usually need more? I'd go with Stifle here (suprising, no?). Here's a suggested list if both stay:

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
2 Counterspell
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

You'll notice that I cut the Calls for the Counterspells, and threw in the Vials. I also cut Stifle to 3, StP to 3, and Chains to 2. Now Calls for Counterspells might be a bad trade off, but I'm still not sold on Call as a 2-of. At that number, I just don't think we'll see it often enough for it to matter. I could be wrong though, but only more testing will prove that. Aether Vial seems like it warrants a little more testing here, but with only 15 creatures maindeck mutliples would be sort of useless, and my first thought is that eventually we're gonna run out of creatures to pump into this thing. If that ends up being the case, then we could cut them to bring the Stifle/StP count up to 4, and the Chain count up to 3. Or, if we end up cutting Chain entirely, we could add Call back in alongside Counterspell as a 3 of, which is a more appropriate number in my opinion if we want to see it reliably.

EDIT:

The lone maindeck Meddling Mage can come out. You're probably right about it being too slow. I also question how valuable the lone maindeck Talon sliver is. Maybe that could be relegated to the sideboard. That frees up two slots right there for Chains or something else (Pithing Needle?). I suppose you could even go with the 3 Stifle + 3 Chain of Vapor plan.

EDIT: Btw, other things Stifle is awesome against: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives

You're probably right about the lone Talon Sliver being less than great, especially since our Gobs matchup is reliably fantastic. The only issue I see here is that if we cut it, we would probably need to cut it for another Sliver, to keep the Sliver count (and creature count in general) the same. It could possibly turn into Winged Sliver number 3, which is generally more useful in most matchups anyway.

[Volt]

Well, thank you. And I'm not Goas, and I'm pretty sure Maverick isn't Goas. Volt might be Goas though. Check with him ;).

I am not Goas. :)

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
2 Counterspell
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle


You'll notice that I cut the Calls for the Counterspells, and threw in the Vials. I also cut Stifle to 3, StP to 3, and Chains to 2. Now Calls for Counterspells might be a bad trade off, but I'm still not sold on Call as a 2-of. At that number, I just don't think we'll see it often enough for it to matter. I could be wrong though, but only more testing will prove that. Aether Vial seems like it warrants a little more testing here, but with only 15 creatures maindeck mutliples would be sort of useless, and my first thought is that eventually we're gonna run out of creatures to pump into this thing. If that ends up being the case, then we could cut them to bring the Stifle/StP count up to 4, and the Chain count up to 3. Or, if we end up cutting Chain entirely, we could add Call back in alongside Counterspell as a 3 of, which is a more appropriate number in my opinion if we want to see it reliably.

Maybe your play-testing will prove differently, but I don't think Aether Vial will really help this deck all that much, aside from being able to do some nifty combat tricks from time to time. The deck simply doesn't run enough creatures to make the Aether Vials consistently useful. Also, they are susceptible to hate.

Regarding the Eladamri's Call, I think the proper way to look at them is not as "2x Eladamri's Call," but rather as "Crystalline Sliver 5-6," and "Winged Sliver 3-4." Just my opinion. Of course, Counterspell is pretty good, too.

[Maverick676]

Well after looking at everyones list heres what im considering for my friday tournament, results will probably show where cuts/additions should be made.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver//Winged Sliver

4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

SB-------------------
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt

Aether Vial Ive already tested and found that its less than stellar in this deck. I'm not trying to shut anyone down or anything but it seemed like every time this came online turn 1 it only let me play a free sliver that i had the mana for anyway. The vial is good enough however to warrant some further testing, It would be nice to go in response to your swords ill vial in crystalline MUHAHAHAHA. It would probably have to be a 4 of or nothing though, since you always want to play it first turn if possible.

I'm still not sure about which sliver should be in the main talon or winged? Usually you need about three or four slivers on the board to win and by that time your bigger guys are usaully 3/4's and 4/5's so if they have first strike they can cut down just about anything in the format except fatties like enforcer or something. In which case you aim a swords the fatty's way.
I guess the question im posing is whether it's better to have the evasion of flying or the board dominating first strike?

I have also upped the visions count by one since taking out call is just like taking out two slivers, visions should help find more slivers/answers which is always good.

A quick not on the sideboard: I am opting to run 2 null rods because at least 5 people in my meta are likely to play White Weenie with 12+ equipment and null rod gives them nightmares.

[Complete_Jank]

At first I was going to say Slivers, WTH.

However, the write up was pretty funny, and it isn't too bad, so lets see how it does.

[Volt]

I'm still not sure about which sliver should be in the main talon or winged? Usually you need about three or four slivers on the board to win and by that time your bigger guys are usaully 3/4's and 4/5's so if they have first strike they can cut down just about anything in the format except fatties like enforcer or something. In which case you aim a swords the fatty's way.
I guess the question im posing is whether it's better to have the evasion of flying or the board dominating first strike?

That's a really good question, and it's something I hadn't really thought about. I guess the conventional wisdom is that evasion trumps all, but I think your question merits play-testing to figure out the right answer. One point in Winged Sliver's favor is that flying does protect your crew against things like Flamebreak, Earthquake, etc. I don't think those cards are big concerns right now, though, unless there's a lot of Burninator in your area. I think this deck probably rolls over and dies to Burninator, anyway.

I really like the changes you made to the deck, although I would recommend keeping at least one Eladamri's Call in there. As I was telling Pinder, I think the proper way to think of it is not as some random spell that you rarely draw, but rather as an extra copy of whatever sliver you may happen to need. In any case, good luck on Friday night. I look forward to your report.

[Complete_Jank]

I think current format First Strike is better than flying, however, if you ran a one of and a call you could fetch the first strike of flying.