All B/R update speculation.

[dte]

Assuming Miracles doesn't get nerfed somehow Survival of the Fittest is going to be dealing with putting 2 Vengevines on the bottom of their library during their attack step.

I guess this kind of lines is what some people refer as considering Survival with old lists / poor plays: if you play against miracle with an active survival, you are actually close to have already won. Against instand speed terminus, why didn't you shut up this top with revoker? where is your Teeg + sylvan safekeeper / MoR?
And even if you didn't, they would have used a terminus while you can grow back 8-12 power of hasty creatures without even resolving a single spell.
A counterbalance is annoying? I can have creatures at any ccm, let alone tutoring for reclamation sage (which protect you vs RiP, revoker, needle, ...).

People argue that DRS will be good against survival, without looking at how good it will be WITH survival.

[Zulabnar]

Burn and Affinity are the strongest linear aggro decks in the format, so to bolster aggro WotC should unban (or print anew) something that will help those decks but not find a home in tempo or midrange.

That's it.

Print a more viable Eidolon is good for aggro for example r/g r/g as cc instead of RR as

Print a good AGGRO solution to countertop

Print a good AGGRO solution against 2nd turn Emrakul

This is why aggro can't win now: everyone ha solution to aggro creatures, aggro should have 3 colors at least to have solution to each single deck. Black for combo, red for blue decks, green to pressure...etc etc while Terminus fit perfectly against any creature in the meta.

OR wizzard slow the meta, banning some speedy cards like brainstorm (that saves you from having a bad hand to fix with topdeck) or printing something good for aggro decks.

I can't immagine how could be a fight on the board in combat phase more boring than, brainstorm, ponder, divining top -> find my solution
or to Jace i lock your topdeck
or s&t -> Omin -> Emrakul oh look i win

[MGB]

Why did you bother with all that? I don't care which decks have Tops in them since the card is perfectly benign. Try to get this in your head because I hate repeating it...if what you want is to assassinate Miracles, ban Brainstorm and Miracles will die. Or don't. There is nothing wrong with Miracles, only the stupid homogeneity of the card quality engine it shares with 3/4 of the format. Other methods of quality control are entirely outclassed, and that shit is monotonous.

Why do we have to ban Brainstorm just to weaken Miracles?

Banning Brainstorm is another argument entirely - if you have a problem with Brainstorm, then you aren't the first, but I don't think it's necessarily bad to have in the format.

I want to knock Miracles down a peg to let other control decks and other aggro decks breathe a little easier. The best way to do this is to ban Sensei's Divining Top. Banning Brainstorm would also have a similar effect, but that would have far too much collateral damage. Banning SDT hurts Miracles and only Miracles, and that is exactly the point I was trying to make with that tcdecks breakdown.

Banning SDT = little to no collateral damage or tampering with the integrity of Legacy as a whole. Very simple outcome: Miracles is weaker.

Banning Brainstorm = tons of collateral damage, a veritable ****storm of possible outcomes. Very complex outcomes that are hard to predict.

[FoolofaTook]

That's it.

Print a more viable Eidolon is good for aggro for example r/g r/g as cc instead of RR as

A really good aggro card that was printed at r/g r/g instead of rr would just fold into RUG Delver. Think about it. Volcanic Island, Tropical Island, win.

[kinda]

You called me "intellectual dishonest" several times for not seeing everything in regards to B&R matters in clear-cut black & white, but ponder about potential side effects of certain bannings and whine about flaming, if I respond to your bold and empty arguments with snarky comments? You haven't seen me flaming at all and I'm not in the mood either. I just tend to call people out for showing at least a logic line of thought which lead to their ideas with at least a grain of self reflection of ideas, which I rarely get in this thread. If you want an example take the "we would have 10% more aggro decks without Terminus!" Stuff earlier today.

You talk about "facts, lists, and testing" at the same time you deny that DRS, GSZ, TNN, Griselbrand and other cards which are pretty easy fits for the Survival concept saw print post Survival ban. Dood, your definition of "facts" is pretty iffy, if I dare to say. Did you present us any lists or testing which take all these newer printings into consideration at all? You did not. Never. I only remember a user (and I'm not sure if it was you or another dear Sourcer) tried to point out how "FAIR" SotF is against todays metagame BY RUNNING STRICTLY PRE-BAN SURVIVAL LISTS AND CARDS. Intellectual Dishonesty much? It's like makin points about Necropotence with the help of lists from '96 played against todays Miracles/S&T while ignoring Infernal Tutors or Storm cards printed years later. We had the discussion in this thread and I consider these so-called "lists" and "testing" still hilarious. I hope most other users reading this would agree that all testing of Survival lists against the current meta is invalid if the mana-acceleration grounds on Birds of Paradise rather than DRS

How did you misinterpret my post? I clearly did not say banning terminus would increase aggro decks by 10%. I said terminus is played in 10% of decks and alluded to how potent the card is vs aggro. Not understanding what people are saying could be misinterpreted as dishonesty.

[Watersaw]

Why do we have to ban Brainstorm just to weaken Miracles?

Banning Brainstorm is another argument entirely - if you have a problem with Brainstorm, then you aren't the first, but I don't think it's necessarily bad to have in the format.

I want to knock Miracles down a peg to let other control decks and other aggro decks breathe a little easier. The best way to do this is to ban Sensei's Divining Top. Banning Brainstorm would also have a similar effect, but that would have far too much collateral damage. Banning SDT hurts Miracles and only Miracles, and that is exactly the point I was trying to make with that tcdecks breakdown.

Banning SDT = little to no collateral damage or tampering with the integrity of Legacy as a whole. Very simple outcome: Miracles is weaker.

Banning Brainstorm = tons of collateral damage, a veritable ****storm of possible outcomes. Very complex outcomes that are hard to predict.

I'm just stepping in to say that adding or removing a single card from the format, EVEN IF it only effects one deck on the surface, will never have a simple outcome. There are too many moving parts in the game to consider ANYTHING a simple outcome (deck construction, established meta, theoretical changes to what the decks to beat are, behavior of the players themselves, cards that already exist but have not had their time to shine, cards that are already set to be printed it future sets that will benefit greatly due to possible changes, etc.)

Also, is the lack of other control decks the fault of Miracles being that good? Or is it that the rest of the current Tier1 decks are that good and Miracles is the only control deck that can reasonably keep pace with them?

Or it could just be that it's the most popular and thus had the most representation.

[FoolofaTook]

Also, is the lack of other control decks the fault of Miracles being that good? Or is it that the rest of the current Tier1 decks are that good and Miracles is the only control deck that can reasonably keep pace with them?

Or it could just be that it's the most popular and thus had the most representation.

Miracles tends to top other control lists. It's a turn faster at getting setup than most control lists and it's really hard to win through the creature removal if you're playing just a few high impact creatures, even if they're hard to interact with.

I don't think other control lists have declined because they're not as good at managing the metagame. I think they've declined because they're not as good at managing the metagame AND they tend to have problems beating Miracles.

One of the things about Miracles that goes largely unrecognized is that it's a combo and control list. SDT/CB, SDT/Entreat, SDT/Terminus, then the Legends builds with Karakas/Vendilion Clique and Karakas/Venser. That's two card combos winning many of the games that Miracles wins. Jace is mostly responsible for the rest.

[LOLWut]

A really good aggro card that was printed at r/g r/g instead of rr would just fold into RUG Delver. Think about it. Volcanic Island, Tropical Island, win.

There are a billion ways to design aggro cards that wouldn't work in RUG.

[btm10]

Miracles tends to top other control lists. It's a turn faster at getting setup than most control lists and it's really hard to win through the creature removal if you're playing just a few high impact creatures, even if they're hard to interact with.

You realize this is just patently false, right? Other control decks, especially other control decks that don't run 8+ cards that are dead game 1, tend to have even-to-favorable matchups against Miracles. The 4-TNN BUG Control deck that had success on the SCG circuit last spring had a fantastic Miracles matchup. Ur Landstill during the Treasure Cruise era had a comically favorable Matchup against Miracles. The Grixis Landstill deck in the New & Developing forum's game against Miracles is almost as good as Ur's was. Grixis Pyromancer Control has the worst Miracles matchup of any of the decks I've named, and even there Miracles is even at best. The big thing that Miracles has working to its advantage as the only major pure control archetype is that there's little reason not to play Terminus and Entreat once you're running CounterTop, and CounterTop is the only way that pure control can reliably beat combo.

[Finn]

Why do we have to ban Brainstorm just to weaken Miracles?

Banning Brainstorm is another argument entirely - if you have a problem with Brainstorm, then you aren't the first, but I don't think it's necessarily bad to have in the format.

I want to knock Miracles down a peg to let other control decks and other aggro decks breathe a little easier. The best way to do this is to ban Sensei's Divining Top. Banning Brainstorm would also have a similar effect, but that would have far too much collateral damage. Banning SDT hurts Miracles and only Miracles, and that is exactly the point I was trying to make with that tcdecks breakdown.

Banning SDT = little to no collateral damage or tampering with the integrity of Legacy as a whole. Very simple outcome: Miracles is weaker.

Banning Brainstorm = tons of collateral damage, a veritable ****storm of possible outcomes. Very complex outcomes that are hard to predict.

I hear you, mate. You are coming at this from the angle of "Miracles must go." I keep telling you that I don't see why. I'm pretty sure that getting rid of Top would simply end the deck rather than knocking it down a peg. But your reasons as stated in this quote are extremely flimsy. It looks as though you just don't like the deck because it beats you or edges out your favorite pet deck or something. I dunno. Maybe you might want to state them clearly for us. But really Miracles is not doing anything oppressive. Just being the best is not a crime.

Also, it is not as if there are other pure (nearly pure, Foolofatook - nothing is pure in the brothel that is Legacy) control decks waiting in the wings. There has not been another viable pure control deck since 2005 or something like that. Years ago, we all wanted there to be some way that such a deck could exist in such a fast and varied environment as Legacy. The idea that we have one, and that there is now this witch hunt to bring it down is pretty crazy in the grand scheme of things. As best decks go, it is very mild.

You: Miracles is a problem and must go. I say we take Top.
Me: If you are going to ban something, take the actual culprit; Brainstorm.

So, you can see that I disagree with where you are coming from, so our views on which card to get rid of are going to be different as a result. I don't think you can just ban Brainstorm, but I am quite certain that it is the boogeyman of the format. If you did though, Miracles would be amongst the first decks to completely fall apart due to the number of dead cards you would routinely have in your opening 7. Bring on the complex outcomes.

[Lemnear]

Nope, you know nothing. Please read and learn why Recruiter is banned: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post882997

I made that post 10 days ago, and it is now 16 pages away. The posting rate of some individuals in this thread is... unreasonable.

Then it's good, that I NEVER talked about why Recruiter was BANNED but why I SUSPECT it wasn't UNBANNED in the meanwhile. Reading is tech

[dte]

Funny how there seems to be a consensus about that Miracle is the only control deck, while it's not even the most played nor the most sucessful.

I will be sad if miracle disappears (not because it's my petdeck, I play mostly elves), it is a deck which as an original gameplay and which brings interesting plays from both sides of the table in most MUs.

Also I feel like there is as much differences between ponder miracle and legends miracle than between UR delver and RUG delver or BUG delver.

[Barook]

Funny how there seems to be a consensus about that Miracle is the only control deck, while it's not even the most played nor the most sucessful.

Except Miracles has been THE top control deck since ages and is a top contender of the format, quite often being THE best performing deck of the month.

And that doesn't even include MODO where it has an iron grip on the format.

[KobeBryan]

I think miracles just need an errata. They shouldn't let you miracles a sorcery card on an opponent's turn.

[Zulabnar]

There are a billion ways to design aggro cards that wouldn't work in RUG.

example

"If you contorl an island when this come into play sacrifice it"

gg

[Barook]

example

"If you contorl an island when this come into play sacrifice it"

gg

Except they wouldn't print it because it would be "inelegant design" or whatever Maro would call it.

[Zulabnar]

Except they wouldn't print it because it would be "inelegant design" or whatever Maro would call it.

Also you could make it cost 3 more if you control island, it could be a mechanic, and is pure speculation

just to say that wiz can print aggro cards not blue base deck fitting if they want with just a simple mechanic

[FoolofaTook]

There are a billion ways to design aggro cards that wouldn't work in RUG.

This is probably true but giving them a split cost of non-blue is not one of those ways. If it was Abrupt Decay wouldn't have folded into BUG like a bug in a rug.

The obvious design type would be a more extreme adaptation of one they already used with Sea Drake. Give the spell or creature a "When %t is played sacrifice 2 fetchlands. When %t enters the battlefield sacrifice 2 Islands." That would *probably* keep it out of the blue shell.

Just as a side note my BUG Control list beat Dredge, ANT, Burn and Enchantress last night and lost to Miracles *again*. I've played variants of this list since Treasure Cruise was banned and it beats the living crap out of just about everything it faces but loses to Miracles every time I play it.

[Crimhead]

Except Miracles has been THE top control deck since ages and is a top contender of the format, quite often being THE best performing deck of the month.

Let's examine this more closely. Here are the stats for Miracles matches at major events post TC ban:

Miracles vs:

Burn: 9-0
Death and Taxes: 21-18-4
Deathblade: 8-6-2
Dredge: 3-4-1
Elves: 18-6-2
Grixis Control: 6-9-1
Infect: 8-9
Jeskai Delver: 3-4-1
Jeskai Stoneblade: 5-9-1
Maverick: 7-2
Mirror: 31-31-14
MUD: 1-3
Omnitell: 11-5
Reanimator: 7-7-3
RG Lands: 5-10-4
Shardless Sultai: 8-15-3
Sneak and Show: 5-8-1
Storm: 16-12-10
Sultai Delver: 20-24-4
Temur Delver: 13-17-3
Twelvepost: 6-6
Other: 95-79-13
Overall non-mirror: 256-230-50

Top contender my ass!

I want to knock Miracles down a peg to let other control decks...
...breathe a little easier

Miracles tends to top other control lists.

Fortunately I've brought stats on Miracles vs other control decks (including control-ish midrange decks):

• vs Grixis Control: 6-9-1
• vs RG Lands: 5-10-4
• vs MUD: 1-3
• vs Shardless Sultai: 8-15-3
• vs Deathblade: 8-6-2
• vs Death and Taxes: 21-18-4

Apparently Miracles is bad against most of these decks, and hardly crippling against the others! The suggestion that Miracles is keeping other control decks down is baseless and false. The biggest factor keeping other control decks down is the $800.00 price tag on Tabernacle.

[Stevestamopz]

Let's examine this more closely. Here are the stats for Miracles matches at major events post TC ban:

Get out of here with your arguments backed by facts, miracles is opressing us all and should be banned out of existance without hurting our own blue decks
/s