All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Two years of this horseshit without any interesting printings would have a good chance to seriously damage the format.

I would agree, but it takes more than some people bitching to one another on some random site they don't read for them to give a fuck and take action. Something will have to push them, a circlejerk here will not be that something. As for something that is damaging to the format, that would depend on your definition. From my point of view the last objectively damaging card was MM. Everything after than you can argue for and against and people will willingly do that in here.

While I also add, I dislike what DTT is doing to the format, right now it's just another brick in a big ass wall. It is not within my power to dismantle that wall so at this point, I will just take it as it comes. I also do not think DTT is the worst card in the format and I would rather see other things go away before it does.

They should have printed it in one of the other sets as 6GG with delve. Blue got two dumb card draw spells and black some undercosted beatsticks and green gets giant giant growth and a smaller beat stick. #sosalty

No. It would not have worked. Because the deck you want it in is so chock full of Creatures, you're not really filling your grave. It is why the deck runs Voice in Modern over Goyf. I was playing it with Gofy and sometimes, 5 turns in he is still just a 2/3. Delve on this card would not have been the answer. Not unless you want to push it to be played in a cantrip shell.

[Lemnear]

They should have printed it in one of the other sets as 6GG with delve. Blue got two dumb card draw spells and black some undercosted beatsticks and green gets giant giant growth and a smaller beat stick. #sosalty

It was a Clan mechanic, so why are you complaining about colors? You can complain about the gap between blue, green and black within the Clan mechanic. Growth, Tasigur and Angler are crap compared to TC & DTT. Don't act like the non-Sultai colors aka white and red got nothing out of Jeskai.

[Quasim0ff]

You obviously don't play D&T. Because its players would probably sacrifice their firstborn to get better consistency tools.

While D&T has some cards that follow the same plan (Wasteland, Port, Thalia, Revoker in certain match-up against mana sources), it has zero library manipulation aside from SFM (and Imperial Recruiter if you run the red splash). D&T gets its performance more from raw power (against blue decks) than high consistency.

You and I clearly have different understandings of "Consistent".

If you mean "Need the right card for a given situation", sure. Death and Taxes aren't as consistent.
If you mean "Have a pretty linear gameplan (No, D&T is not a linear deck!) and make that gameplan work often enough to be considered viable" then Death and Taxes is very consistent.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

It was a Clan mechanic, so why are you complaining about colors? You can complain about the gap between blue, green and black within the Clan mechanic.

I think that was the gripe the post was about, how out of the BUG wedge, Blue got the best Delve cards by a long shot.

Green got Become Immense and Hooting Mandrills. Black got a bunch of Tombstalkers, a potentially cheaper Mind Rot, and a card roughly on par with Ghastly Demise. Blue got Delve versions of Recall, Time Walk, and Ancestral Memories. That seems fair...

Kinda silly when both Green and Black are far more traditionally associated with the graveyard. Where was the Delve Greater Good, Tutor, Zombify, Regrowth, or anything else interesting? The mechanic had so much interesting design space, but most of it went unused.

[Darkenslight]

It was a Clan mechanic, so why are you complaining about colors? You can complain about the gap between blue, green and black within the Clan mechanic. Growth, Tasigur and Angler are crap compared to TC & DTT. Don't act like the non-Sultai colors aka white and red got nothing out of Jeskai.

Indeed, although I think you may be under-rating Tasigur a little; recurring a card each turn is still pretty strong in Modern and Standard, and with TC and DTT as Delve spells, that makes an incredibly potent midrange shell.

[Lemnear]

Indeed, although I think you may be under-rating Tasigur a little; recurring a card each turn is still pretty strong in Modern and Standard, and with TC and DTT as Delve spells, that makes an incredibly potent midrange shell.

Well, I don't dare to judge the cards in Modern, where the 4-mana ability of Tasigur might is actually relevant and Treasure Cruise isn't necessarily hilariously broken due to Modern lacking the hyper-efficient Cantrips/Removal/Counter and being slower overall.

The point is that in Legacy Tasigur is just another take on Tombstalker in the face of Karakas and Plows while Treasure Cruise is a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall. It's valid (from my POV) that people complain about the lacking balance between colors here. How in the world are TC and Murderous Cut balanced in colors and rarity? Why does blue get Delver versions of Resticted List Legends and Black/Green missing any delve-variants of Tutors, Skeletal Scrying, Y.Will, Reanimation, Regrowth, Fastbond, GSZ, whatever?

[Stevestamopz]

Well, I don't dare to judge the cards in Modern, where the 4-mana ability of Tasigur might is actually relevant and Treasure Cruise isn't necessarily hilariously broken due to Modern lacking the hyper-efficient Cantrips/Removal/Counter and being slower overall.

The point is that in Legacy Tasigur is just another take on Tombstalker in the face of Karakas and Plows while Treasure Cruise is a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall. It's valid (from my POV) that people complain about the lacking balance between colors here. How in the world are TC and Murderous Cut balanced in colors and rarity? Why does blue get Delver versions of Resticted List Legends and Black/Green missing any delve-variants of Tutors, Skeletal Scrying, Y.Will, Reanimation, Regrowth, Fastbond, GSZ, whatever?

Because the people that design magic cards are boring peasants.

[Quasim0ff]

Well, I don't dare to judge the cards in Modern, where the 4-mana ability of Tasigur might is actually relevant and Treasure Cruise isn't necessarily hilariously broken due to Modern lacking the hyper-efficient Cantrips/Removal/Counter and being slower overall.

The point is that in Legacy Tasigur is just another take on Tombstalker in the face of Karakas and Plows while Treasure Cruise is a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall. It's valid (from my POV) that people complain about the lacking balance between colors here. How in the world are TC and Murderous Cut balanced in colors and rarity? Why does blue get Delver versions of Resticted List Legends and Black/Green missing any delve-variants of Tutors, Skeletal Scrying, Y.Will, Reanimation, Regrowth, Fastbond, GSZ, whatever?

Because they make cards for standard and modern play, not legacy and vintage.

[Dice_Box]

Because they make cards for standard and modern play, not legacy and vintage.

They sometimes make things for us, throw us a bone. For example: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.ph...3779#msg653779
(There is also an article on the mothership stating Decay was printed to help Legacy against Counterbalance.)

[Barook]

I would agree, but it takes more than some people bitching to one another on some random site they don't read for them to give a fuck and take action. Something will have to push them, a circlejerk here will not be that something. As for something that is damaging to the format, that would depend on your definition. From my point of view the last objectively damaging card was MM. Everything after than you can argue for and against and people will willingly do that in here.

While I also add, I dislike what DTT is doing to the format, right now it's just another brick in a big ass wall. It is not within my power to dismantle that wall so at this point, I will just take it as it comes. I also do not think DTT is the worst card in the format and I would rather see other things go away before it does.

They'll have data from GP Kyoto and GP Lille (which is most likely going to be just as blue). They also have MTGO data which is even more loop-sided than during the TC era.

The better question is whether or not Erik Lauer sits another round on his ass doing nothing.

[Blastoderm]

Well, I don't dare to judge the cards in Modern, where the 4-mana ability of Tasigur might is actually relevant and Treasure Cruise isn't necessarily hilariously broken due to Modern lacking the hyper-efficient Cantrips/Removal/Counter and being slower overall.

The point is that in Legacy Tasigur is just another take on Tombstalker in the face of Karakas and Plows while Treasure Cruise is a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall. It's valid (from my POV) that people complain about the lacking balance between colors here. How in the world are TC and Murderous Cut balanced in colors and rarity? Why does blue get Delver versions of Resticted List Legends and Black/Green missing any delve-variants of Tutors, Skeletal Scrying, Y.Will, Reanimation, Regrowth, Fastbond, GSZ, whatever?

Oh man a delve Skeletal Scrying would have been so awesome.

[btm10]

To be fair, Empty the Pits seems like it was a real attempt to be a Black Entreat, but the cost reducer doesn't make up for BBBB, and the fact that the Zombies are just Grizzly Bears and they can't be used as Flash blockers left it unplayable.

[maharis]

To be fair, Empty the Pits seems like it was a real attempt to be a Black Entreat, but the cost reducer doesn't make up for BBBB, and the fact that the Zombies are just Grizzly Bears and they can't be used as Flash blockers left it unplayable.

I agree, card was so close to being awesome and ended up being stupid. Probably because standard games go a lot longer than legacy games, and the average CMC is much higher, so letting someone dump a bunch of zombies EOT too early is arguably more dangerous than letting them draw 2-3 more 4-5 drops.

[nedleeds]

If Empty the Pits was X it wouldn't be playable. BBBB.

[btm10]

Keep up the Necro ban strategy and ban every surrounding shitty card while the format degenerates.

As much as I hate to admit it, the Necro analogy is pretty spot-on. I do think that Dig would still need to be banned even if Brainstorm goes, though.

[Lemnear]

As much as I hate to admit it, the Necro analogy is pretty spot-on. I do think that Dig would still need to be banned even if Brainstorm goes, though.

The Necro analogy ignores the question of how playable Necro would have been without Ritual

[sjmcc13]

The Necro analogy ignores the question of how playable Necro would have been without Ritual

Is this from back in the day when Ritual was a Mana Source and could not be countered (Mirage to 6th IIRC)?

[btm10]

The Necro analogy ignores the question of how playable Necro would have been without Ritual

I didn't say that I was 100% sold on banning Brainstorm, but in the context of the major fruitful discussions in this thread right now (banning Top and/or Dig), it's quite appropriate. Whether Dig would also be safe without Brainstorm is up for debate. Top is almost assuredly fine if Brainstorm goes, though.

[Lemnear]

I didn't say that I was 100% sold on banning Brainstorm, but in the context of the major fruitful discussions in this thread right now (banning Top and/or Dig), it's quite appropriate. Whether Dig would also be safe without Brainstorm is up for debate. Top is almost assuredly fine if Brainstorm goes, though.

Top is not fine if paired with Preordain in a post-Brainstorm, post-Ponder Legacy environment. I at least gave my 0.02$ on the matter before as you sure remember.

[Kanti]

That's your opinion. It might still see oodles of play, and could possibly still be the best thing you can be doing with your mana, but if old extended (2007-2009) could handle CB-Top and not have it be 50%+ of the metagame then I'm sure 1.5 can handle it. And yes, this is my opinion. Damn you subjective thread.