Revisiting the discussion of dealing with 12 Post. I think there were a couple mentions of using Blood Moon... scrap that idea. I believe its typical for that deck to run a few Krosan Grips in the SB, and with the amount of forests the deck runs that Blood Moon isn't going to hang around often. You might get lucky and catch them off guard in game 2 where they may not board the Grips in though. You really just have to extract their Cloudposts or Eldrazi.
RuinationOriginally Posted by tilzinger
I am thinking about shaking things up and running a NO fit list. let me know what you think.
3 forest
3 island
2 swamp
2 bayou
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
6 fetch
4 veteran explorer
1 progenitius
1 world spine worm
1 eternal witness
4 shardless agent
4 cabal therapy
4 natural order
3 force of will
3 abrupt decay
2 pernicious deed
1 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 brain storm
1 Jace the mind sculptor *(only own one)
1 maelstrom pulse
I am still up in the air about worldspine, but it seems like a good option for any deck that is not white. Also Gaea's Vengence is in the board for miracles MU's
On first thought it sounds good to sac a Veteran Explorer on Natural Order. But thinking deeper into it, whats the point? You dont need more mana when you land Proggie. Plus arent you missing more creatures, is shardless agent giving you more value then NicFit usually already has? Plus there are no target for Shardless that create extra value when cascading into it, like ancestral vision. I am not convinced (yet).
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
@Moseby: I would think about a more midrange version in your case, with gsz etc: a BUG No-Fit.
Shardless seems ok, you don't have cards you don't want to cast in your list but she forces you to not playing Zenith, that's huge in this deck and in a NO version.
I will add Drs in a manabase like:
3 Drs
4 Veteran
20 lands + Dryad Arbor
And i'll swap 3 Deed/2 decay (only if you don't want gsz, otherwise decay can go in the sideboard)
I'm so far really liking Burning Wish main in Punishing Fit.
It lets you increase your virtual copies of sideboard cards, vastly increasing the effectiveness of the sideboard. It lets you draw the card you need, when you need it (with some limitations) since each wish will turn into the card you need at the specific point of the game. It lets you use sideboard cards in g1. And it reduces the amount of dead cards g1. It increases density of sweepers and potentially win conditions. I'll provide some examples, nothing groundbreaking for those who have followed the Scapewish-builds.
I've been moving cards around but my current list has maindeck 5 discard, 2 Liliana, 3 Wishes, 0 Vraska, 0 Pulse and 0 Slaughter Games. I like keeping an extra discard to increase chances of getting to t3-wish, t4-game ending or at least very powerful sorcery in some matchups.
Wish targets in the board are eg Ruination, Tsunami, Massacre, Deluge, 1-2 Discard, 2-3 Slaughter Games. Would like 1 anti-gy sorcery, any ideas appreciated. Reanimate is a possibility.
This means I don't need to draw suboptimal Slaughter Games g1 in matchups where they are useless, instead I have three extra sweepers - obviously very valuable. Having maindeck wishes means 3 extra answers to t2 mystic-batterskull for example (massacre/discard). It helps getting out of Death n Taxes-lockdowns..
It also lets me dedicate one sideboard slot for both the Lands and Cloudpost matchup but in effect having three virtual copies of it including game 1. The wish doesn't even slow down the casting of the Ruination. I have went 2-2 in my matches against these decks w Wishes, winning 2-0 against a wg Cloudpost and rg Lands. Not much statistical input but still, Wish for Ruination was crucial.
The Tsunami is for ending drawn out games vs stoneblade decks or other blue decks. Playing it main (after boarding) would mean drawing it occasionally when you really need to deal with a threat; wishing for it is a perfect solution/application. It also comes in vs Omnishow and Miracles. Like Arianrod commented a Choke can be worked around by Miracles, Tsunami is definite.
I'm happy with the wishes and will keep them in for a while.
Sounds something as to try, i like.
Grave-hate: Haunting Echoes.
Also i really like a Reanimate to wish for. Sometimes it gives random goodstuff like borrowing a Tarmogoyf or Griselbrand. Also Goblin Sharpshooter vs Goblins or Mother or Runes vs DnT is a ton of fun.
Speaking of DnT, usually with PFire build i am able to win after a really grindy matchup. But to dedicate Massacre in that slot, not sure. I would at least play a Toxic Deluge and a Maelstrom Pulse. Anyway this opens up quite some options. Solving some consitancy at the cost of a turn during the early games.
Do you mind sharing your complete list? Curious to what is dropped for the 3 Wishes.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Sure, here it is (with my general considerations).
I'm always considering some cards:
- Recurring Nightmare and/or Primeval Titan
- Acidic Slime / Reclamation Sage / Wickerbough Elder or non at all
- Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist / Containment Priest or just swapping for more discard + Surgical Extractions
- Leyline of the Void / Surgical Extraction / Grafdigger's Cage / Slaughter Games.
- Deathrite Shaman or not.
Stormbreath Dragon seems very interesting, will have to try too. If running Stormbreath I'm guessing the need for Maelstrom Pulse is somewhat less, the Dragon should be excellent at slaying Jaces.
Haunting Echoes is also interesting, but probably too expensive to be a replacement for Leyline/Surgical/Cage which is what I'm looking for.
In my meta there are about 25% Stoneforge Mystics decks, an enthusiast has been collecting statistics, so Massacre seems quite valuable. Of course clearing TNN's, Delvers and Snapcasters at the same time and having application in all creature based matchups. It may be a slight overdedication to beat the white decks, but I think it's currently worth it. The rise of the Grixis decks may change this.
I keep considering what the best inevitable threat in the deck is. I've been using Primeval Titan + the Two Towers for a while, being GSZ-able is a great plus. Now I think I'll try Recurring Nightmare for a while, I have been running into the problem that the Two Towers only let me play one card per turn and if the opponent has some card draw active they can deal with my replayed threats and deploy threats of their own. Recurring Nightmare is often equivalent to drawing several cards each turn. The Stormbreath Dragon that you are testing could be another option, being harder to remove, killing planeswalkers and the potential of going monstrous makes it look great at racing.
Maindeck: 60
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Burning Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage (changing to Wickerbough Elder)
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan (changing to Recurring Nightmare)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard: 15
2 Slaughter Games
1 Reanimate/Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre / Pyroclasm / Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tsunami
1 Ruination
1 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers / Thoughtseize
2 Leyline of the Void / Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
I really want to run Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as our over the top guy. I know he's bad, but....nostalgia :P
-Matt
Move to Connecticut and use him as a somewhat reasonable sideboard slot for all of Jeremiah's children.
You can make oppoent lands to creature and kill mith puniching fire. ^^
After making day 2 of the invi at 5-3 and then going 2-4. I was glad to play some legacy on Sunday. Ended up 5-3-1 with stoneforge fit.
Omnitell lost in 3
Storm won in 3
Omnitell lost in 3
Death and taxes drew
Beat a sandwich aka no show.
Beat d and t in 3
Shardless bug drew (he scooped)
Lost to elves In 3.
Beat pox in 2.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
That is a really interesting list. Looks good.
I guess running BWish demands even more of the manabase, so Primeval Titan seems to be in place. I would not think that Wickerbough is a better target then RecSage, but i suppose you'd make that choice based on playing experience. Also i find the Grafdigger's Cage a bit akward in this deck as it shuts down GSZ, Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare.
last weekend i have played the worst tournament ever. Running PFire NicFit i went 1-5 where the win was a bye.
R1: 0-2 OmniShow
R2: Bye
R3: 0-2 Elves
R4: 1-2 Esper Control
R5: 1-2 URbg Delver
R6: 1-2 Burn
As for NicFit i will be stepping back to the build i was most succesful with combined with elements that where now more succesful. Running 23 lands was solid. Never saw Kolaghan's Command. Overall i felt like i was a step behind in nearly every matchup. All things well, i have decided to not continue preparing NicFit for GP Lille and will settle for a UBG shell. For now i am really enjoying BUGStill running 4 Standstill and 2 DTT, cardadvantage is insane. And still i am able to rock Pernicous Deed with that deck.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Hmm, I managed to win a game (but not the round, should have mulliganed game 3) from Burn by dropping Iona and following that up with Emrakul, lol.
I'm still flustered that I don't see more Tasigur in Nic Fit lists, combined with a Fierce Empath so you can GSZ for it (and/or Grave Titan, which I encountered in the mirror this weekend. Damn, that thing gets very nasty very quickly). I tend to lean on Tasigur so much that I get to abuse his ability pretty much in 80% of the games where he hits the board, recurring Path to Exiles and whatnot. The last game I played, my opponent (Dredge) first had to return a Path to Exile to me and after that opted to hand me Diabolic Intent. Which then ate a freshly drawn DRS and got me a RiP which I played the same turn. Good times.
The pfire list relies heavy on its lifegain and solid hits of therapy. In my earlier build i ran 4 drs/3 vetex. And the rest was similar, i nearly never lost to burn then. Grinding with DRS and Courser until i reached critical mass and cast Thragtusk.
Iona is the best card to play against burn and also lifegain is killing for burn. Good players will try to rebuild a hand and make land drops unyil they can hit and kill you in one turn.
Tasigur is near to unfair. Lol. I am running 1 main in BUGStill and it was a house. Solid body and combined with DTT, DRS, Standstill and dredge mechanic from LftL it was just silly. Playing the creature in NicFit would be awesome to and i have seen the cards in a lot of lists not running green at all. Just UB is enough (or GB for NicFit matter). I think people are hasitant about it because it cannot be zenith for. But most lists run Diabolic Intent which fuels and can search the card.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Again: Fierce Empath. GSZ -> Empath -> Tasigur makes Tasigur cost 5 mana to cast, which is peanuts for this deck. If you can't cast Tasigur that turn or want something bigger, fetch Primeval or Grave Titan and drop that the following turn. Empath makes for amazing topdecking in the lategame and makes a LOT of things GSZ'able. You basically run X + Y + n copies of any 6+ drop in your deck with it, with X being the number of Zeniths, Y being the number of Empaths and n the number of copies of a specific fattie.
With 4 GSZ, 1 Empath and 1 Tasigur you effectively run 6 copies of Tasigur.
Who needs blue for consistency, lol?
I currently focus on another deck for GP Lille, but my latest "Tasigur.list" was:
Land (22)
2x Badlands
2x Bayou
2x Forest
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
3x Swamp
1x Taiga
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (12)
1x Eternal Witness
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Primeval Titan
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (11)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Ranger
1x Thoughtseize
Tasigur combined with Liliana and Punishing Fire isn't the worst scenario - his biggest upside was the fact, that you can get an early threat in a otherwise heavy control.list (which tends to durdle around for a while...) - especially if you face a combo.dec it is very important if you get a real clock online, after you survived with Discard&Co, otherwise the will recover and still kill you.
With Tasigur you also want some more "Spell Action", to cast him faster - this lead me to 2x Thoughtseize Maindeck (so 6x Discard + 3x Liliana Main!). The good news are, Tasigur itself is very resilient on its own, nearly immun to our own deed and his ability is ok - if you can avoid Veteran Explorer in your yard (the worst card you have in a late game), which can be negated with a S.Top in Play.
Sideboard isn't set in stone, i mainly chose a karakas (combined with Titan) to get more upside against ugly stuff like Sneak&Show/Reanimate/DDepths Combo (and also a land, if you must cut explorer for miracle etc.). Garruk is a switch for Tasigur if you face Rest in Peace Decks, to get an GY independent threat online.
I can also see 3 Carpet of Flowers (mainly to ramp into Slaughter Games) if i find the place (or accept cuts in other matchups).
------
For Tasigur, as already mentioned from me, i can also see a BUG.dec with him, because you get the most fetches here and way more spells which synergies well with delve and his ability.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I'm probably going to a LGS tomorrow (Meadhall) and play Legacy for the first time not on Cockatrice or against my friend. I'm playing Junk, and this is my land base and SB. Its not ideal, I know. I don't have Catacombs yet, but suprisingly the Mire and Foothills have gotten me there without much trouble. The Tomb is b/c I don't have a 2nd Bayou, and frankly in the 30 or so games I've played I've only had to shock myself once, so not too worried about it.
My question is this... could/should I swap out the 4th Forest for a Stomping Ground and change the Memoricides to Slaughter Games? I also just picked up a Courser of Kruphix... should I put it in somewhere? If so, where? The Hymns are the 2 cards I'm really not that sure about. I'll have a Maelstrom Pulse soon, but not tomorrow (its in the mail), so both of those were potential replacements for the Hymns. Thoughts?
Lands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dryad Militant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Memoricide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
MD
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
Hi, i'm really interested in this deck...i want to switch from Modern to Legacy cause of bad speculation on the format that i think that are ridicolous...so I put my eyes on this deck that i think is really fun and strong to play, but i have some questions on it:
- What is the best conformation of the deck?? I really like the Punishing Fire version, but i saw also the Birthing Pod and BG based...what is the best for you? and why?
- What are the best and worse Matchups for this deck? Is it a good choice? I hate blue based deck, so ithnk that this deck is good for me
I hope you will reply me and sorry if i made mistakes, but i want to be part of this discussion in a few mounths
Thanks a lot
meso94
There is no best version -- it's all personal taste and meta calls. All of the main trunks are equally viable, and most of the side branches are at least marginally viable. It's all on you to find what you like.
Best matchups tend to be tempo strategies and control decks; worst matchups are combo of most varieties. You can usually pick a couple combo decks to hate out postboard, but there will always be a couple of decks you are <20% to win vs.
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