[Primer] Elves!

[IMarques]

Do we mulligan to 7 and Counterbalance is no longer a card? There is a reason Elves evolved from the Glimpse focus over the years towards a deck which can handle hate. Combo Elves was bad 3 years ago because because you were too dependent on Glimpse resolving and unable to recover from a sweeper. I don't see a reason or metagame development which would lead me to think it's the time to pickup that old idea again

As I said, I'm skeptical. But for me that is no reason not to at least have a look. That being said, interesting to see that my intuitions are backed up by people who actually played such a version. Clearly, though, we need to think of something for the deck in order to shore up either the Miracles or the Omnitell match-up. Otherwise we never climb back to the top.

Uh, he said the deck was probably worse than the current NO-oriented builds and that he was just playing it for fun? You want to tear something meant for serious play to shreds, go to town on my previous take that going -1 Hoof +1 Ruric +1 WRP is an upgrade on Merriam/Jessup list.

Your suggestions are quite good, but not really that novel. People seem to have drifted away from Merriam's more combo oriented build towards something that packs in more hate and is better against mid-range. My problem with the deck is that its not clear that it gives you more game against either Omnitell or Miracles, which are the really problematic match-ups. It improves our already good Maverick/Jund/Delver match-up. You mentioned that you get Ruric down T2 or T3 consistently. Out of curiosity, how have you been managing that through counters against Omnitell? Haven't had to play that match-up much, so I'm ignorant of it.

Full disclosure: I've been playing WRP maindeck in the Reclamation Sage/S. Ooze slot. It's ok, but hasn't ever won me games I would not have otherwise won. R. Sage and S. Ooze definitely have. Sample size is only one 4 round tournament, though, so still experimenting with it. Where has it performed for you?

[Shagstaman]

The only way to beat omni-tell consistently is to have a faster goldfish game 1 and games 2/3 have a backbreaking sb plan (the old blue splash for envelop/swansong seems legit...or just load up on k.grips and keep up 3 mana for a while in addition to discard--note this doesn't stop emrakul draws..)

as far as miracles..that's a nut we haven't cracked yet. Julian got close with the "grindy" elves, but even that isn't a sure thing...sometimes they just get a buncha terminus into entreat and you lose.. (envelop would again be solid here, but counterbalance is still a thing)

the good news is we have decent matchups across the board still. It's not as if EVERYONE is playing just those two decks. They're popular but not exactly accessible.

[Echelon]

Do we mulligan to 7 and Counterbalance is no longer a card? There is a reason Elves evolved from the Glimpse focus over the years towards a deck which can handle hate. Combo Elves was bad 3 years ago because because you were too dependent on Glimpse resolving and unable to recover from a sweeper. I don't see a reason or metagame development which would lead me to think it's the time to pickup that old idea again

Oh Lemnear, you silly goose. Read the entire post next time, it would have saved you the urge to write this one.

[Lemnear]

Oh Lemnear, you silly goose. Read the entire post next time, it would have saved you the urge to write this one.

yep. Next time :)

The only way to beat omni-tell consistently is to have a faster goldfish game 1 and games 2/3 have a backbreaking sb plan (the old blue splash for envelop/swansong seems legit...or just load up on k.grips and keep up 3 mana for a while in addition to discard--note this doesn't stop emrakul draws..)

as far as miracles..that's a nut we haven't cracked yet. Julian got close with the "grindy" elves, but even that isn't a sure thing...sometimes they just get a buncha terminus into entreat and you lose.. (envelop would again be solid here, but counterbalance is still a thing)

the good news is we have decent matchups across the board still. It's not as if EVERYONE is playing just those two decks. They're popular but not exactly accessible.

I said it before: The angle to beat this metagame of OmniScience, Counterbalance and Batterskull/Jitte is 4 MB Sages. Cardadvantage and clock.

Do I have to beg Julian to give it a spin? ;)

[elFinFas]

What do you think about this new elves?

The -1/-1 would be nice i think!

[Echelon]

They cost 3 mana, are off colour and can't be GSZ'd or fed to NO.

The -1/-1 kills... what exactly that bothers us?

[Zombie]

If only it was 1GB and -2/-2 or destroy target flying creature...

[Lemnear]

3 mana is a bit much to kill unflipped Delvers, Mother of Runes and Thalia. Thanks for trying. Still wait for 1GG - Legendary Creature - Elf - Nissa

[Echelon]

3 mana is a bit much to kill unflipped Delvers, Mother of Runes and Thalia. Thanks for trying. Still wait for 1GG - Legendary Creature - Elf - Nissa

With haste, hexproof/shroud and G, T: Kill target creature with flying (or at least deal 2+ damage to it).

[MD.Ghost]

3 mana is a bit much to kill unflipped Delvers, Mother of Runes and Thalia. Thanks for trying. Still wait for 1GG - Legendary Creature - Elf - Nissa

Hopefully with some usefull Ability

------
new elves: non green so kind of waste - it should be something like: Thornscape Battlemage (without kicker...) if you want to "shot" stuff down

[dte]

If eyeblight assassin was green (or 1GB), I will for sure have run a copy, probably even MD. As it is not GSZ-able, no way.

@ lemnear: I cannot see any reason to want to run more than 1 MD Sage. Outside of miracle, there is not many MUs where i would like even a second one. I cut my second copy in SB when I noticed that I didn't want it in almost any MUs outside miracle in G2/3 (even versus omnitell, the second one is a bit clunky).

[Lemnear]

If eyeblight assassin was green (or 1GB), I will for sure have run a copy, probably even MD. As it is not GSZ-able, no way.

@ lemnear: I cannot see any reason to want to run more than 1 MD Sage. Outside of miracle, there is not many MUs where i would like even a second one. I cut my second copy in SB when I noticed that I didn't want it in almost any MUs outside miracle in G2/3 (even versus omnitell, the second one is a bit clunky).

@Miracles:
Game 1 is a fucking hassle to get between Terminus and Counterbalance, but if you can wreck each Balance with a hard-to-counter-3-mana spell and immediately put a clock on the table, you can grind out the Terminus easily as Glimpse is a card again unlike with Counterbalance on the table. 4 Sages, 4 GSZ and 4 Symbiotes should annoy your opponent to death without the hassle to get acces to a sole Sage in most other current builds. Heck, some guys even don't run a Sage at all! I can't understand people doing so, as the Sages were never better than now.

@MUD
Chalice of the Void? What? Sage + Symbiote is a mono-green trash compactor. Also non-1-mana cards are not that bad against Chalice

@OmniTell
I think it's underrated how awkward it is to see a Sage put into play with S&T as it requires you to win with instant speed. No Ponders, no Probes, no Preordains, no Emrakul. They need to have DTT or Wish->Fireminds Foresight or Brainstorm finding on of the former two in addition to S&T + Omniscience in hand to win or 2-for-0 themselves. If you pair the Sages with discard as you do in any combo matchup, you will put your opponent into a really tough spot

@D&T
Vial? Jitte? Batterskull? None of your business anymore

[Shagstaman]

these are all reasons why I never put my sage in the sb. he is md FOREVER. Maybe 2+1sb or something is worth trying...lol cuz 4 md seems so..incorrect.

[Lemnear]

these are all reasons why I never put my sage in the sb. he is md FOREVER. Maybe 2+1sb or something is worth trying...lol cuz 4 md seems so..incorrect.

Embrace the crazy. No honestly, the point against all these decks is to have Sage in hand instead of tutoring it. You need to stop seeing the card as a tool to get rid of occasional stuff, but as a Decay on legs which creates cardadvantage like Visionary against most decks that matter. You don't question 4 Visionaries as cardadvantage tool either, do you?

[dte]

@Miracles:
Game 1 is a fucking hassle to get between Terminus and Counterbalance, but if you can wreck each Balance with a hard-to-counter-3-mana spell and immediately put a clock on the table, you can grind out the Terminus easily as Glimpse is a card again unlike with Counterbalance on the table. 4 Sages, 4 GSZ and 4 Symbiotes should annoy your opponent to death without the hassle to get acces to a sole Sage in most other current builds. Heck, some guys even don't run a Sage at all! I can't understand people doing so, as the Sages were never better than now.

For the miracle MU and the fact that sage deserve a MD slot, I agree full-heartedly.

@MUD
Chalice of the Void? What? Sage + Symbiote is a mono-green trash compactor. Also non-1-mana cards are not that bad against Chalice
@D&T
Vial? Jitte? Batterskull? None of your business anymore

Yes, Sage is really good against these easy MUs which are not very common. Not enough for 3 additional slots MD, especially as the first one is already tutorable and bounce-replayable.

@OmniTell
I think it's underrated how awkward it is to see a Sage put into play with S&T as it requires you to win with instant speed. No Ponders, no Probes, no Preordains, no Emrakul. They need to have DTT or Wish->Fireminds Foresight or Brainstorm finding on of the former two in addition to S&T + Omniscience in hand to win or 2-for-0 themselves. If you pair the Sages with discard as you do in any combo matchup, you will put your opponent into a really tough spot

Here I totally disagree. I thought too that sage was good vs omnitell until testing it, from both sides of the table. If I had 4 Sage in my 75, I wouldn't have 4 in my 60 for G2/3.

No Ponders, no Probes, no Preordains, no Emrakul.

This is completely wrong. If the omnitell player had probe, (s)he would have play it before the S&T. Preordains and ponder are usually the first cantrips played, not the ones that stay in the hand after S&T unlike Wish & DTT.
And for Emrakul, the Omnitell player can directly play it off S&T, which he would do if he had probe, and would often do even without. Omnitell players know that Sage is a card.
So, when S&T is going to resolve, the omnitell player plays Emrakul (2 copy, sage has no effect) or omniscience (4 copies, sage have an effect only if the omnitell player had no probe (4), no DTT (4) and no wish (3)). Sage is more often than not a blank in the MU.


So globally, the only real upside of playing 2+ Sage MD is the miracle MU. I'm not even convince that there is an upside of playing a second one in SB.

[Lemnear]

So in other words: If your opponent sees Sage with Probe in your hand, he cannot drop OmniScience to S&T but has to wait until he also has a DTT or a wish in addition, which gives you the time to cast discard and kill them with Hoof or Ruric.

edit: doesn't that qualify Sage as a green Mindbreak Trap in this matchup? ;)

[dte]

So in other words: If your opponent sees Sage with Probe in your hand, he cannot drop OmniScience to S&T but has to wait until he also has a DTT or a wish in addition, which gives you the time to cast discard and kill them with Hoof or Ruric.

edit: doesn't that qualify Sage as a green Mindbreak Trap in this matchup? ;)

Except that if the omnitell player has already DTT, Wish or Emrakul (so 9 cards), it doesn't do anything.
Trap at least makes the storm player pay B for a discard, and the storm player has only 7-8 discards to fight glimpse, NO and trap.
While the omni player doesn't do anything with Emrakul and Wish before the combo.

In fact, it's pretty uncommon for the omni player to want to go off with only ponder/preordain in the MU (because of GSZ=>Sage: unlike most MUs, elf is pretty good at destroying enchantments), so most often they already have one of these when they want to go off.

I don't say that sage is a total blank, but it is not efficient very often.

[Lemnear]

Except that if the omnitell player has already DTT, Wish or Emrakul (so 9 cards), it doesn't do anything.
Trap at least makes the storm player pay B for a discard, and the storm player has only 7-8 discards to fight glimpse, NO and trap.
While the omni player doesn't do anything with Emrakul and Wish before the combo.

In fact, it's pretty uncommon for the omni player to want to go off with only ponder/preordain in the MU (because of GSZ=>Sage: unlike most MUs, elf is pretty good at destroying enchantments), so most often they already have one of these when they want to go off.

I don't say that sage is a total blank, but it is not efficient very often.

If they get 3 mana + DTT + S&T + Omni together without you doing anything in regards to NO or discard, they might simply deserve to win that game. Honestly, what base for discussion is this? "Uh, we can't beat the nut draw, so lets not even try."? Is this the goblin thread or what? Increased artifact/enchantment removal or MB discard are the best two shots this deck has in the current metagame and with the decks current position between Miracles/S&T/Blade and being dropped out of the DtB section. WRP, as much as I love the card, or other minor cosmetic changes will not tackle the problems. It feels like 2010/2011 again as everyone was satisfied with 14 lands combo Elves and it's status as a tier 2 pet deck.

/rant

[jimmythegreek]

If they get 3 mana + DTT + S&T + Omni together without you doing anything in regards to NO or discard, they might simply deserve to win that game. Honestly, what base for discussion is this? "Uh, we can't beat the nut draw, so lets not even try."? Is this the goblin thread or what? Increased artifact/enchantment removal or MB discard are the best two shots this deck has in the current metagame and with the decks current position between Miracles/S&T/Blade and being dropped out of the DtB section. WRP, as much as I love the card, or other minor cosmetic changes will not tackle the problems. It feels like 2010/2011 again as everyone was satisfied with 14 lands combo Elves and it's status as a tier 2 pet deck.

/rant

Could you please elaborate on your "is this the goblin thread or what" sentiment?

[Lemnear]

Could you please elaborate on your "is this the goblin thread or what" sentiment?

Sure I can. I even know where you are coming from with that question, but I answer regardless: It's the thread commonly known for bitching about how unfair all the greedy manabase Uxx decks and blue cards are, but even on-color options like Magus of the Moon or Pyroblast get easily dismissed because "do not work well with Ringleader!" and users there rather discuss SGC vs Krenko than solutions to Miracles/S&T/Storm/Lands to improve the decks Position in the metagame

If I see here the discussion of WRP instead of Hoof #2 or Sage and sometimes discussions about how adding non-creature cards hurts Glimpse, I feel like in the same thread ;)