All B/R update speculation.

[Crimhead]

Hahahhahah ... fully half of the people in this thread don't even acknowledge the purpose of the banned list...

They sure don't! Here is the opening paragraph on WotC's official banned and restricted lists page:

One key to the continued health of Magic is diversity. It is vitally important to ensure that there are multiple competitive decks for the tournament player to choose from. Why? If there were only a single viable deck to play, tournaments would quickly stagnate as players were forced to either play that deck or a deck built specifically to beat it. In addition, different players enjoy playing different types of decks. If there are plenty of viable options to play, there will be more players at more tournaments.

That's the purpose of the banned list - to enure multiple competitive decks of varying types.

...and don't care if every deck that top 8's a 7+ round legacy event from here on out has 4 x Ponder, 4 x Brainstorm, 4 x Force.

I seriously doubt this, and I'd like to suggest a revision:

Some people don't care if every midrange & aggro-control goodstuffs deck that top 8's a 7+ round legacy event from here on out has 4 x Ponder, 4 x Brainstorm, 4 x Force.

Because combo decks and control decks without these cards top8 regularly in such events. But that's not good enough for some of us I guess.

At what point would you consider the data relevant then?

It's not a question if the data being relevant or not. The question is whether or not the deck supports the existence of competitively viable decks without the colour blue; and whether or not such decks are strictly less competitive than the top decks with blue.

You can never reach 100% blue decks various reasons - card availability, cost reasons, obstinacy, having a shred of dignity left, etc.

And I do mean competitively viable decks! Decks which are shown to have a favourable average win-rate against the meta and/or place in top brackets (of major events) in high proportions relative to their frequency in said events. If you are saying people play R/G Lands because they are poor and/or stubborn I'll ask you to please back that up.

[Barook]

1) They sure don't! Here is the opening paragraph on WotC's official banned and restricted lists page:

One key to the continued health of Magic is diversity. It is vitally important to ensure that there are multiple competitive decks for the tournament player to choose from. Why? If there were only a single viable deck to play, tournaments would quickly stagnate as players were forced to either play that deck or a deck built specifically to beat it. In addition, different players enjoy playing different types of decks. If there are plenty of viable options to play, there will be more players at more tournaments.

That's the purpose of the banned list - to enure multiple competitive decks of varying types.

2) It's not a question if the data being relevant or not. The question is whether or not the deck supports the existence of competitively viable decks without the colour blue; and whether or not such decks are strictly less competitive than the top decks with blue.

3) And I do mean competitively viable decks! Decks which are shown to have a favourable average win-rate against the meta and/or place in top brackets (of major events) in high proportions relative to their frequency in said events. If you are saying people play R/G Lands because they are poor and/or stubborn I'll ask you to please back that up.

1) We are already in such a meta - it's play Brainstorm (every cantrip shell), play anti-Brainstorm (e.g. D&T, MUD, Lands once they bring in the Chalices/Spheres/whatever) or ignore them (e.g. Elves, Lands when they go for the combo win). The meta has become pretty stagnant.

2) I have no idea what you're trying to say until you clarify it.

3) Maybe etc. includes enjoying a particular deck? It's just sad to see people pick up decks they hate/don't enjoy based on their performance alone, like Julian23 picking up Miracles and Omnitell and hear him complaining on stream how much Omnitell bores him, yet he keeps playing it because it wins.

[twndomn]

1) We are already in such a meta - it's play Brainstorm (every cantrip shell), play anti-Brainstorm (e.g. D&T, MUD, Lands once they bring in the Chalices/Spheres/whatever) or ignore them (e.g. Elves, Lands when they go for the combo win). The meta has become pretty stagnant.

I cannot follow that logic.

For a card to become be ban-worthy, the card has to create a polarity of join the bandwagon or hate it out. TC was such card.

Now, if you're on the hate-wagon, can you do well with your hate deck? The answer is yes. MUD top 8 GP NJ, which was a 2-day sizable tournament. DnT can do just as well.

Here's the funny thing, you provide the Ignore route. If it's possible to ignore such problematic card by playing Elves or Dredge, then why is the card ban worthy in the first place?

[Julian23]

[QUOTE=twndomn;886543]

If it's possible to ignore such problematic card by playing Elves or Dredge, then why is the card ban worthy in the first place?

I don't care very much about Brainstorm, but playing Elves in the current meta is pretty loose. You're not beating OmniTell or Miracles. Grixis DTT is beatable but still an uphill battle. Outside of DTT, there's too little value in playing a non-blue midrange deck; unfortunately, these are the kind of decks Elves likes to devour. No we're starving :(

[Crimhead]

1) We are already in such a meta - it's play Brainstorm (every cantrip shell), play anti-Brainstorm (e.g. D&T, MUD, Lands once they bring in the Chalices/Spheres/whatever) or ignore them (e.g. Elves, Lands when they go for the combo win). The meta has become pretty stagnant.

Chalice is not an anti-brainstorm card! Its good against a huge portion of the meta, and decks like MUD and Lands run it to fight combo, not to fight Brainstorm! Sure, we'll bring 'em in against various cantrip decks (not normally Blade decks, I think), but that's all gravy.

Lands isn't successful because it counters BS. Its successful because it has card advantage and consistency tools strong enough in their own right to compete.

Compare this to MM. MM was being brought into decks specifically to counter opposing mental missteps. An entire archetype - Manaless Dredge - was developed solely for the purpose of dodging MM. To some extent this may have been happening with TC - folks were bringing MD RIPs to stymie it. But nothing like this is happening in the current meta with Brainstorm, DTT, nor any other card.

[Barook]

[QUOTE=twndomn;886543]

Here's the funny thing, you provide the Ignore route. If it's possible to ignore such problematic card by playing Elves or Dredge, then why is the card ban worthy in the first place?

Just because it's the strategy the deck has chosen doesn't mean the strategy is good in said metagame.

Considering how fast the metagame transformed into the most blue metagame ever with ~80% blue decks since people started picking up DTT after the TC ban, it should be pretty telling there is something wrong with the current development, especially with a few decks starting to amass meta percentages and they all run DTT plus its partners in crime.

Chalice is not an anti-brainstorm card! Its good against a huge portion of the meta, and decks like MUD and Lands run it to fight combo, not to fight Brainstorm! Sure, we'll bring 'em in against various cantrip decks (not normally Blade decks, I think), but that's all gravy.

Lands isn't successful because it counters BS. Its successful because it has card advantage and consistency tools strong enough in their own right to compete.

Compare this to MM. MM was being brought into decks specifically to counter opposing mental missteps. An entire archetype - Manaless Dredge - was developed solely for the purpose of dodging MM. To some extent this may have been happening with TC - folks were bringing MD RIPs to stymie it. But nothing like this is happening in the current meta with Brainstorm, DTT, nor any other card.

But cantrip-based decks are the main portion of the metagame now.

Lands can finish well because people don't really metagame for it right now. If people bring more Blood Moons and RiPs, it gets worse.

As for Manaless Dredge, Sylvan Plug was developed for the sole purpose of ruining blue decks in an overly blue metagame, by running Chalice, Trinisphere and MD Chokes. You need a very good reason not to run Brainstorm nowadays.

[eays]

I'm in full alignment with Barook on this.

The combination of "Dig + Cantrips + Countermagic + Wincon of Choice" is simply THE BEST thing you can do in legacy, and nothing feels close. Counterspells get you to the mid/late game, Dig finds your answers/win con and buries opponent in card advantage, and all the while your cantrips fuel your card advantage and ensure that you have optimal draws/find your hate pieces.

I understand that Crimhead and others will be satisfied with a Meta as long as they can distinguish a viable tier 1 option for combo, control, and aggro conrol, but to me the Meta feels more closed off, suffocated, and stale than ever. Maybe it's because I play online more than paper, where it's easier to switch to the best decks, but the MTGO metagame is an absolute cluster bang of Miracles, Omnitell, Grixis, and Blade decks playing the same dig+cantrip+countermagic+wincon suite, and it's gotten so stale that I've drastically cut back my time playing.

I'm sure to take heat for these views, but before these busted Khans delve spells I was having a great deal more fun with Legacy. There were still the top decks, yes, but the gap between tier 1 and tier 2-3 seemed more surmountable, and the format was more "open", which is one of the things that really attracted me to legacy in the first place. I think I'll probably just play more cube/limited while monitoring future releases and the B/R updates for something that will break up the monotony.

[Crimhead]

Lands can finish well because people don't really metagame for it right now. If people bring more Blood Moons and RiPs, it gets worse.

Lands would have to be ridiculous before these cards were main decked. Not every deck runs these colours (in my experience decks rarely splash a colour for a side board card), and some decks with red might not welcome Moon themselves. And those cards can be played through.

I think if Lands ever got big enough to meta aginast, the effect would be more and faster combo decks. That would be a meta shift, which seems to be what people want.

Regardless, we are talking about the current meta - not a hypothetical future meta! In today's actual meta, Lands is a beast. It's almost unfair. Due to the scarce and expensive cards with little applicability outside off Lands, the deck is likely to remain just under the radar. People are unlikely to meta against a deck they have a good chance to dodge.

The combination of "Dig + Cantrips + Countermagic + Wincon of Choice" is simply THE BEST thing you can do in legacy, and nothing feels close.

If I believed this, I wouldn't be happy.

I understand that Crimhead and others will be satisfied with a Meta as long as they can distinguish a viable tier 1 option for combo, control, and aggro conrol, but to me the Meta feels more closed off, suffocated, and stale than ever.

I might not be happy with only three tier one decks. Part of why I'm so happy is because I do not equate top8s with tier one decks without scrutiny. I recognise that a mediocre deck, played in high enough numbers, will make lots of top8s. The top8 parade is a good indication of what you should emta for, but to measure a decks strength/positioning, I want to see win rates, or top eights in proportion to representation in the filed. This data tells a very different (and more thorough) story.

I'm sure to take heat for these views, but before these busted Khans delve spells I was having a great deal more fun with Legacy.

I am sorry to hear. Have you tried playing Lands? It's great fun, unique, and beats the snot out of most fair decks (DTT, cantrips, and all). :)

[Stevestamopz]

Before these busted Khans delve spells I was having a great deal more fun with Legacy. There were still the top decks, yes, but the gap between tier 1 and tier 2-3 seemed more surmountable, and the format was more "open", which is one of the things that really attracted me to legacy in the first place.

+1

[Zombie]

That's exactly the Problem: it has become totally irrelevant if you run S&T+Omniscience, Pyromancer+CabalTherapy or SFM+TNN ... The shell of 4Fow/4Ponder/4Brainstorm/4Probes/4DTT became absolutely omnipresent and oppressive. Only the kill mechanism varies atm

Never thought I'd see this day. Did someone kidnap him and is now posting in his stead?

[testing32]

Never thought I'd see this day. Did someone kidnap him and is now posting in his stead?

What happened was TES isn't playable anymore. Now he wants things banned.

[Lemnear]

Never thought I'd see this day. Did someone kidnap him and is now posting in his stead?

No, this is just someone who drew a line between "lets play 8 cantrips to fuel different strategies and deckbuilds of combo/control/aggro" and "lets all play the same 30+ cards (counting Fetchlands) and just pick up the colorsplash + killoption of the month!"

[testing32]

No, this is just someone who drew a line between "lets play 8 cantrips to fuel different strategies and deckbuilds of combo/control/aggro" and "lets all play the same 30+ cards (counting Fetchlands) and just pick up the colorsplash + killoption of the month!"

It's been like that for 7 months now. I think I should just use the same lines you spewed for the last 7 months.

"Don't cry just b/c you can't play your pet deck"

"The blue shell is fine, play death and taxes"

"Brainstorm is skill intensive"

"A 48 card format is just fine if you can play combo/aggro/control"

Edit: Good that you are finally on board but it took way too long and it had to get really bad before you did.

[Gheizen64]

I stand by my position. Unban Survival , Earthcraft, Vise, Twist, Recruiter. If the blue cantrip shell is always gonna be a pillar, at least create new pillars alongside it, since apparently banning the best blue spell isn't an option and wotc rather ban everything before it (TC, MM, and now prob DTT).

[Lemnear]

It's been like that for 7 months now. I think I should just use the same lines you spewed for the last 7 months.

"Don't cry just b/c you can't play your pet deck"

"The blue shell is fine, play death and taxes"

"Brainstorm is skill intensive"

"A 48 card format is just fine if you can play combo/aggro/control"

Edit: Good that you are finally on board but it took way too long and it had to get really bad before you did.

Another try to put words in my mouth? Fuck off and go reading what I wrote exactly, not what you wish I did. Using quotation marks for stuff I never said is pretty cocky. I'm not "on board" with your previous stated nonsense in this thread, just saying

[maharis]

No, this is just someone who drew a line between "lets play 8 cantrips to fuel different strategies and deckbuilds of combo/control/aggro" and "lets all play the same 30+ cards (counting Fetchlands) and just pick up the colorsplash + killoption of the month!"

So what you're saying is there is a line that can be crossed before "strategic diversity" doesn't trump all arguments. I'm glad we agree on that.

[Admiral_Arzar]

So what you're saying is there is a line that can be crossed before "strategic diversity" doesn't trump all arguments. I'm glad we agree on that.

I feel like pretty much everyone has a point where they look at the format and say "wow, enough is enough." IMO that point is long past in Legacy but there are plenty who disagree with me I'm sure. I usually play fringe decks, but I finally played a deck using the full blue shell being discussed (UR Omnitell) the other day and was shocked at the power level of the deck. I mulliganned continually and made plenty of mistakes due to inexperience and still crushed multiple control opponents. I have never played something that powerful in this format, it makes the nearest equivalent deck (High Tide) look like a Modern deck by comparison. My only loss came to a legitimately awful matchup (Grixis Delver) boarding 10 cards against me.

[Lemnear]

So what you're saying is there is a line that can be crossed before "strategic diversity" doesn't trump all arguments. I'm glad we agree on that.

We do not agree. Strategic diversity is still my most important aspect, but this shell is killing all "strategic diversity" in fact. There is no "diversity" in deckbuilding if you simply switch out your killconditions, but the Rest of the deck is more or less the same. Huge difference, dood

[porcupinetreeman]

These three cards should be banned. Just makes sense.

Ban:

Brainstorm
Dig Through Time
Show and Tell

[iamajellydonut]

These three cards should be banned. Just makes sense.

No, it doesn't.