[Primer] Elves!

[jimmythegreek]

Sure I can. I even know where you are coming from with that question, but I answer regardless: It's the thread commonly known for bitching about how unfair all the greedy manabase Uxx decks and blue cards are, but even on-color options like Magus of the Moon or Pyroblast get easily dismissed because "do not work well with Ringleader!" and users there rather discuss SGC vs Krenko than solutions to Miracles/S&T/Storm/Lands to improve the decks Position in the metagame

If I see here the discussion of WRP instead of Hoof #2 or Sage and sometimes discussions about how adding non-creature cards hurts Glimpse, I feel like in the same thread ;)

"Do not work with ringleader" DOES not work with lackey, matron, warchief or much of anything else in the goblin arsenal......unfortunetly what keeps this deck playable is synergy not a random shitty top deck. Like brainstorm, ridding one self of chance along with card advantage wins games. I apologize for taking up space in a thread where descussions of this sort don't belong.

[dte]

If they get 3 mana + DTT + S&T + Omni together without you doing anything in regards to NO or discard, they might simply deserve to win that game. Honestly, what base for discussion is this? "Uh, we can't beat the nut draw, so lets not even try."? Is this the goblin thread or what? Increased artifact/enchantment removal or MB discard are the best two shots this deck has in the current metagame and with the decks current position between Miracles/S&T/Blade and being dropped out of the DtB section. WRP, as much as I love the card, or other minor cosmetic changes will not tackle the problems. It feels like 2010/2011 again as everyone was satisfied with 14 lands combo Elves and it's status as a tier 2 pet deck.
/rant

I do not think that omnitell is a bad MU, in my experience (mostly against the Ur version) it is slightly positive for elves (defavorable G1, favorable G2&3).
And I do not speak about god hands for Omnitell. But instead of theorycrafting, I playtested the MU.
With multiple Sage first, because on paper they look good. They weren't. Ruric and discard were.

So on the nut draw:

S&T + Emy ==> sage is useless
S&T + omni + x
x = ponder, preordain ==> sage works, but these are the antrips played early to find the combo, and the less likely to be in their hand.
x = wish ==> sage is useless
x = DTT ==> sage is generally useless. It can work if they do not find anything relevant in their 7-10 first cards.
x = BS ==> sage generally works. they have roughly 40% chances to find wish or DTT in their 3 first cards (considering 7 hits in 45 cards).

If you really want to beat easily omnitell, try to use these slots to go up to 8 discards, run slaughter game (I tried it and it is really good against omnitell. Unfortunately as it is useless against pretty much everything else, I kicked it out of the SB), ...
but do not think that this DtB, which strategy revolves exclusively around resolving S&T, is not prepare to face oblivion ring - like cards. It is.

[Lemnear]

"Do not work with ringleader" DOES not work with lackey, matron, warchief or much of anything else in the goblin arsenal......unfortunetly what keeps this deck playable is synergy not a random shitty top deck. Like brainstorm, ridding one self of chance along with card advantage wins games. I apologize for taking up space in a thread where descussions of this sort don't belong.

It works excellent with Vials and Ports; just saying. The point is, that at a certain point a deck needs to break out of it's comfort zone and Elves did the unthinkable in the past: It cutted Priest of Titania and rose to new glory. I don't see a reason, why Elves was able to get their ass up and evolved from Staff of Domination to Combo Elves to NO Elves and Goblins have a holy grail in Ringleader which every card has to fit in with no matter the consequences.

I could say "fuck it" and see this deck degenerate to tier 2 because I cherish the established synergetic shell, but thats not me. I'm also not the guy hat says "Elves in it's current iteration does not stand a chance against OmniTell and Miracles so I switch decks" like I have the impression so many people did according to this threads downfall.

[Lemnear]

I do not think that omnitell is a bad MU, in my experience (mostly against the Ur version) it is slightly positive for elves (defavorable G1, favorable G2&3).
And I do not speak about god hands for Omnitell. But instead of theorycrafting, I playtested the MU.
With multiple Sage first, because on paper they look good. They weren't. Ruric and discard were.

So on the nut draw:

S&T + Emy ==> sage is useless
S&T + omni + x
x = ponder, preordain ==> sage works, but these are the antrips played early to find the combo, and the less likely to be in their hand.
x = wish ==> sage is useless
x = DTT ==> sage is generally useless. It can work if they do not find anything relevant in their 7-10 first cards.
x = BS ==> sage generally works. they have roughly 40% chances to find wish or DTT in their 3 first cards (considering 7 hits in 45 cards).

If you really want to beat easily omnitell, try to use these slots to go up to 8 discards, run slaughter game (I tried it and it is really good against omnitell. Unfortunately as it is useless against pretty much everything else, I kicked it out of the SB), ...
but do not think that this DtB, which strategy revolves exclusively around resolving S&T, is not prepare to face oblivion ring - like cards. It is.

Which I do not, that's why I drew parallels to MBT. It's a card that potentially slows down your opponent so you can either win before he/she comboes or buys enough time that more of your hate piles up. I'm no idiot believing that MBT "wins" games against storm for example. The reason I promote the MB use, is the sheer density of decks in the current metagame which offer crucial targets for Sage which result into cardadvantage and improve your game 1 win rate against these common decks, of which I named a few. This deck won a lot with outdrawing their opponens with the BFF team, but the metagame changed and it's no longer soly about blocking Tarmogoyfs and Batterskulls with Visionary/Arbor and bouce them after the block, but Sage can create a similar cardadvantage against Skull/Counterbalance/etc. with a different angle which adresses the current metagame structure better than the established BFF interaction, so I think it's worth exploring if both can work alongside.

I have troubles to see why there is no interrest to improve game 1 win chances against a wide range of metagame decks, or why you apparently think it's fine to just lose game 1 against 44% of the metagame (summed up the metagame percentage of critical matcnups like MUD, Miracles, S&T decks, storm, lands, painter, etc. and sure forgot quite a few)

[Zombie]

It works excellent with Vials and Ports; just saying. The point is, that at a certain point a deck needs to break out of it's comfort zone and Elves did the unthinkable in the past: It cutted Priest of Titania and rose to new glory. I don't see a reason, why Elves was able to get their ass up and evolved from Staff of Domination to Combo Elves to NO Elves and Goblins have a holy grail in Ringleader which every card has to fit in with no matter the consequences.

It's the thing that grants the deck power, much as NO does to the current builds. It just restricts deckbuilding a lot. Even then, that should be a reason to try to find ways to work out of the vicegrip so the deck can adjust to the metagame. I think Elves' biggest weakness, easy, is the conflicting needs the different engines place on the deck that makes adjustment of the maindeck hard without losing a crapton of power.

[dte]

Which I do not, that's why I drew parallels to MBT. It's a card that potentially slows down your opponent so you can either win before he/she comboes or buys enough time that more of your hate piles up. I'm no idiot believing that MBT "wins" games against storm for example. The reason I promote the MB use, is the sheer density of decks in the current metagame which offer crucial targets for Sage which result into cardadvantage and improve your game 1 win rate against these common decks, of which I named a few. This deck won a lot with outdrawing their opponens with the BFF team, but the metagame changed and it's no longer soly about blocking Tarmogoyfs and Batterskulls with Visionary/Arbor and bouce them after the block, but Sage can create a similar cardadvantage against Skull/Counterbalance/etc. with a different angle which adresses the current metagame structure better than the established BFF interaction, so I think it's worth exploring if both can work alongside.

I have troubles to see why there is no interrest to improve game 1 win chances against a wide range of metagame decks, or why you apparently think it's fine to just lose game 1 against 44% of the metagame (summed up the metagame percentage of critical matcnups like MUD, Miracles, S&T decks, storm, lands, painter, etc. and sure forgot quite a few)

I never thought that MD Sage would improve my G1 versus storm.

I agree you improve slightly your MU vs miracle.
MUD, lands and painter? That's not decks that constitute most of the metagame.
Cutting WRP, Sc Ooze + 1 other slot to add 3 additional Sage for these few MU, ignoring all the midrange MUs to figth these fringe decks seems akward to me.

[Lemnear]

I never thought that MD Sage would improve my G1 versus storm.

I agree you improve slightly your MU vs miracle.
MUD, lands and painter? That's not decks that constitute most of the metagame.
Cutting WRP, Sc Ooze + 1 other slot to add 3 additional Sage for these few MU, ignoring all the midrange MUs to figth these fringe decks seems akward to me.

I never talked about Sage in terms of storm, but about Elves having currently a bad game 1 against an estimated 44% of the metagame which was different from 20 months ago with SFM+TNN as the formats dominant core and Elves having a good matchup against these midrange decks. Can you please stop taking things out of context?

I'm interrested which midrange decks you are talking about which don't fall victim to Sages or the decks general matchplan. It's also not solely for these indeed fringe matchups (which are however bad ones you can significantly improve), but for the really common ones like Blade or Miracles where Ooze, WRP and Co have only limited impact to break the annoying softlock between Counterbalance and Terminus in game 1 for example, which drove to many people away from Elves.

[dte]

I didn't see where you stopped talking about Sage MD. I think you may try to make your posts less abrasive and more clear.


And I do not know how you play to have a bad MU vs MUD or painter.
I think I have some clue of why you consider lands a bad one if you cutted Sc Ooze to play a playset of Sage. In my experience it's an even MU.

[Shagstaman]

If I get some free time soon, I'll proxy up miracles and omnitell to test this out and post back with the results. Until then (or until someone blows up a major tourney) I'll reserve judgement on 8sage.dec

[Lemnear]

If I get some free time soon, I'll proxy up miracles and omnitell to test this out and post back with the results. Until then (or until someone blows up a major tourney) I'll reserve judgement on 8sage.dec

Please ... S8ge.dec if you wanna name it.

[QBChaz]

Lemnear, you have inspired me to try the Sages. I think you are right that we need to adapt to the rise of Miracles and OmniTell or fade into obscurity. This might change by the end of the year but with the meta as it currently is we need to be willing to at least try things out.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, you have inspired me to try the Sages. I think you are right that we need to adapt to the rise of Miracles and OmniTell or fade into obscurity. This might change by the end of the year but with the meta as it currently is we need to be willing to at least try things out.

"Try" is the golden word here. Standing still and shifting around 1 Hoofs/1 WRP/1 Ooze/1 Sage and hoping the banhammer gets the job done isn't getting us anywhere. I'm just trying to give an impulse here

[IMarques]

With haste, hexproof/shroud and G, T: Kill target creature with flying (or at least deal 2+ damage to it).

Really? Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I rarely lose to Delver. I would prefer the Nissa give us something to do against Miracles. I'm not quite sure what the right combination of abilities would be, though. Likely playing 2 - 3 creatures to flip and a + ability that pumps out creatures or lets us filter/draw. This seems like it would be the right mix of pressure + awkward to hurt miracles quite badly if she costs 3 or less. Seems a bit ambitious and unlikely, though.

What do the rest of y'all think?

[Echelon]

Really? Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I rarely lose to Delver. I would prefer the Nissa give us something to do against Miracles. I'm not quite sure what the right combination of abilities would be, though. Likely playing 2 - 3 creatures to flip and a + ability that pumps out creatures or lets us filter/draw. This seems like it would be the right mix of pressure + awkward to hurt miracles quite badly if she costs 3 or less. Seems a bit ambitious and unlikely, though.

What do the rest of y'all think?

Isn't relevant, it's all hypothetical.

[IMarques]

Isn't relevant, it's all hypothetical.

Perhaps, but the thought exercise of what types of cards we would ideally want for a match-up serves two functions. One, it gives us a clearer sense of what sorts of things we can focus on without diluting our core strategy. This potentially can help with the (re)discover of older cards that might serve a similar or useful function. The card pool of legacy being what it is, it's not unexpected that innovation can come from random corners (witness the late rise of NO). Second, it helps us be more attentive to new cards that might fly under the radar, but might help the deck immensely. Not everything is a winner, obviously, but not all inclusions are as obvious as Reclamation Sage.

That being said, if you find the discussion not worthwhile, you can simply ignore that part of the thread. If others feel likewise, there will be no replies and we'll move on to something else. There is no reason to attack on topic discussion, though. I've skipped through a lot of inane discussion even on this one thread that someone nevertheless found useful. Don't Yuck on others Yum.

[Echelon]

There is no reason to attack on topic discussion, though. I've skipped through a lot of inane discussion even on this one thread that someone nevertheless found useful.

I didn't mean to attack or offend, my apologies.

[Zombie]

Personally I'd just want a green hatebear that didn't fuck us up in the process (thanks Teeg -_-'). Give us the Elfsculler pls ;_;

[dte]

Personally I'd just want a green hatebear that didn't fuck us up in the process (thanks Teeg -_-'). Give us the Elfsculler pls ;_;

Elf-thalia!!
In fact, an elf-teeg would be just awesome. And it would not be more powerful than the actual one, it would just have some nice relationship with our insect friends :)
Or an elfchoke, even elf of the labyrinth!
A green Mirror entity would be nice too.

[Shagstaman]

I would punch a baby in the face for any of those! omg!

[IMarques]

I didn't mean to attack or offend, my apologies.

Nor did I mean to imply you had. I was just making a broader point, because I see a tendency in this thread for people to decide what others do and do not want to read. I'm cool with that if:

A) People cite their sources or reiterate what's going on when they say debates are being rehashed. Not everyone has had the chance to read nearly 300 pages of thread or watch all of Julian's videos (although you should do both).
B) The person being called out is legitimately off topic.

Back on topic: The hatebear idea is interesting. I think an elvish hatebear would, by definition, be more powerful than another equivalent. Can you imagine if we could bounce Teeg at will to NO? Nuts! That being said, I doubt Nissa will hate on anything specifically, I'm just hoping whatever she does it causes enough splash damage/generates enough card advantage that she's playable and that we don't have to jump through many hoops to flip her.