Yes, they are playing Digs anyway.
It was good to see a detailed report because it gave me some insight into how you were thinking in a lot of matchups. I did enjoy reading it and kudos on the good finish. There's a lot in the report that I agree with, so just a few questions about the deck (and these may apply more to your testing than to the actual tournament, given the decks you matched up against).Originally Posted by TrevaBlues
1) You say that Omnitell is a slightly negative matchup. Do you think that could be due to your preference for Chalice of the Void over Spell Pierce and Daze and Standstill? I have found it to be even to favorable.
2) You have 5 graveyard hate cards in the sideboard, which seems like a whole lot to me. Usually three is enough to beat even the most dedicated graveyard decks in the format (Reanimator and Dredge). Did you find that you needed all of that, or were you mostly doing things like bringing in Relic for Tarmogoyfs and Grafdigger's Cage for Elves?
3) You said after the Elves matchup that a "turn 2 Chalice on the draw does nothing", which is a point that I've made here before. What is the draw of playing Chalice of the Void if it is only situationally helpful in some of our worst matchups?
I do not think this is a good plan, as Omnitell is very good at turning their average hand into a great hand since the deck is nothing but cantrips, Dig Through Time and some combo cards. If there is a "best deck" at turning an average hand into a great one, I think it's probably Omnitell. I think that bore itself out given that you were able to beat the lesser Omnitell players (early in the tournament) when they just could not get the deck to function, either on their own or with some help from Chalice of the Void, but then lost to the better Omnitell player (Rudy). I think a better card in the matchup is Spell Pierce, given that it can function like Chalice of the Void against some cantrips, but then also has the ability to stop everything else in their deck. You lose a card that can be a home-run in some situations (against lot of cantrips) and can do nothing in others (the S&T, FoW, Flusterstorm hands) for a card that often does less but works in many, many more situations.RE: Omni-Tell - just that you hope for your own average hand and that they have average hands. You just lose to their S&T, FoW, Flusterstorm hands.
Given Standstill, I'm really not scared of a 2-for-1 out of Miracles especially when something like Daze and Spell Pierce are usually live against anything recurred with Snapcaster Mage. There are absolutely situations, especially against a top-tier player, where you can be walked into a blowout from them, but for the most part I've found that having access to all of my Dazes and to a few Spell Pierce (especially post-board) makes it really difficult for them to set up that situation. There genuinely is not very much you care about out of Miracles aside from: Swords to Plowshares, Terminus and Entreat the Angels, and Spell Pierce and Daze both have at least a shot of interacting with all of those spells, as opposed to Chalice which can only interact with one. You care about Sensei's Divining Top, for instance, only in so much as it helps them find those three cards in a timely manner. And I've found that Terminus and Swords to Plowshares are a lot less effective with a Standstill in play.RE: Miracles - the Snapcaster builds are more prevalent now and boy are they obnoxious. Still feels like a good match-up but Snapcasters are just such a beating.
I guess the main question I find myself asking reading your report is, if you expected the metagame to be Miracles and Omnitell heavy, is there a reason why you chose a version of the deck that is less able to effectively interact with those decks?
Hey Fish lovers,
I went to a GPT for Lille (only 30 players) this weekend and I won my 2 byes with my fav tribe.
I played the following:
Creatures:
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Phantasmal Image
Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Aether Vial
2 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
Lands:
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
1 Cavern of Souls
SB:
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Waterfront Bouncer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Vision Charm
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
To reach top8 I faced:
Reanimator (W 2-0) SB: +Cage +2 Swan Song +Spell Pierce +Surgical +Relic ; -4Daze -Cavern -1Stifle
Dredge (W 2-0) SB: +Cage +Spell Pierce +Surgical +Relic ; -3Daze -Cavern
Death&Taxes (W 2-0) SB: +Jitte +Spell Pierce +Dismember +Needle +Waterfront Bouncer; -4Daze -Cavern
Burn (W 2-1) SB: +2 Chalice +Spell Pierce +Hydroblast +Vision Charm +1 Cavern; -2 Daze -2 Stifle -2 Wasteland (to up the count for U "merfolk")
Miracles (ID, played for funsies)
In top8, I was first seed for once which is pretty great.
In the quarters I faced BUG control, which I dispatched handily. Now that I am used to it, I feel that it is a very favorable matchup with my build. I won 2-0. SB: +Jitte +Spell Pierce +Dismember +Needle +Relic +Waterfront Bouncer +Cavern; -4Daze -2 Vial -1 Phantasmal Image (Sometimes I go -1 Vial -2 Phantasmal)
In the semis I faced Burn and I again won 2-0. The play I liked in that match was Vision Charm on upkeep in game 2 to silence him on his turn 4 (they do not have that many instants) which gave me my window to finish him off. Same SB as before.
In the other semis, the match was BUG vs. Miracles, and I was happy that the BUG player eventually delivered. My build is not great vs. Miracles since I cut on Caverns (only 1 MD and 1 SB) since I much rather have wasteland against the metagame in Lyon. Also, here they play with Snapcasters and swords snap swords is just a beating.
So in the finals I faced the BUG control guy and my deck treated me well: with enough TNN that he was overwhelmed rapidly and always on the back foot. In game 2, he did not force 1 lord that he should have, to save his counter to make sure his Jitte would resolve (force back when I tried to counter it), which cost him the game.
All in all, I am very happy with this build (I always slightly adjust the sideboard to match what I expect from month to month). I also know I got really lucky with pairings, since I dodged all Show&Tell with Boseijus and heavy on counters as well as various Grixis Delver decks that pack a lot of removal (though wasteland+stifle is nice in this matchup), as well as Imperial Painter and Lands that I always dread).
So yeah 2 byes feels great for Lille and I might see some of you guys over there. I'll run a very similar list since it is the one that fits the most my playstyle.
All of you folks take care,
Cheers,
This deck should really do well in this meta. I was at a 40 man yesterday and 2 people with merfolk got in.
Congrats nafshot.
See you in Lille.
Thanks FANAttIC!
I'll PM you my details so I can thank you in person for the good advice you gave me here.
Take care,
see you in Lille
Hi all!
I'm also going to Lille :) I'm French but I live in the U.S. so I'm not 100% sure about the metagame there (not that I want to metagame too much though for a tournament of this size), but I was wondering if I could run my sideboard guide by you all, tell me if you would do things differently.
Here is my 75, the main is pretty standard chalice build, with a few flex slots that match my preferences. I'm still thinking about a few slots for the GP.
4 Cursecather
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Altlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Phantasmal Image
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dismember
4 Mutavault
1 Mishra’s Factory
3 Cavern of Souls
13 Islands
Sideboard
3 Dismember
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
1 Arcane Laboratory
UWR Delver
In: 3 Dismember, 1 Jitte, 1 Chalice
Out: 1 Aether Vial, 1 Force of Will, 1 Phantasmal Image, 1 Relic
BUG Delver
In: 3 Dismember, 1 Jitte, 1 Relic of Progenitus
Out: 2 Force of Will, 3 Chalice
RUG Delver
In: 1 Jitte, 3 Dismember, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Chalice
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Vendilion Clique
Grixis Delver
In: 1 Jitte, 3 Dismember, 1 Chalice
Out: 4 Force of Will, 1 Relic
Burn
In: 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Jitte, 1 Chalice
Out: 2 Vendilion Clique, 1 Dismember, 1 Relic,
Jund
In: 1 Relic, 3 Dismember, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Jitte
Out: 2 Force of Will, 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 Aether Vial
On the play: bring flusterstorm
Shardless BUG
In: 1 Echoing Truth, 2 Dismember, 1 Relic of Progenitus
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Force of Will
Death & Taxes
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 3 Dismember, 1 Truth, 1 Jitte
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 Cursecatcher, 1 Relic
Maverick
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 3 Dismember, 1 Truth, 1 Jitte
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 3 Cursecatcher
Deathblade
In: 1 Truth, 3 Dismember, 1 Jitte
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Aether Vial, 1 Relic
UWR Stoneblade
In: 3 Dismember, 1 Chalice
Out: 2 Aether Vial, 1 Phantasmal Image, 1 Force of Will
Miracles
In: 1 Truth, 1 Relic,
Out: 2 Force of Will
Sneak & Show
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Truth, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 True-Name Nemesis, 1 Dismember
Reanimator
In: 1 Relic, 2 Cage, 1 Truth, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 4 True-Name Nemesis, 1 Dismember
Storm
In: 1 Relic, 2 Swan Song, 2 Cage, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Arcane Lab, 1 Chalice
Out: 4 True Name Nemesis, 1 Phantasmal Image, 1 Aether Vial, 2 Lord of Atlantis, 1 Dismember
Elves
In: 1 Needle, 3 Dismember, 1 Truth, 1 Swan Song, 2 Cage, 1 Jitte, 1 Arcane Lab, 1 Chalice
Out: 4 Cursecatcher, 2 Aether Vial, 4 Phantasmal Image, 1 Relic
Painter
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Echoing Truth, 3 Dismember
Out: 4 Cursecatcher, 1 Relic
Omnitell
In: 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Arcane Lab, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm
Out: 1 Dismember, 4 True Name, 1 Lord of Atlantis
Lands
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Relic of Progenitus
Out: 1 Dismember, 2 Chalice of the Void
Dredge
In: 1 Relic, 2 Cage, 1 Truth, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Jitte
Out: 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 True-Name Nemesis, 2 Clique
We should take a group selfie and post the picture with red X over face whenever one of us fails to keep clear water in our pond.
That would be a quick update I'm afraid
Sorry to vanish team! Going to rewind and respond where relevant:
I like having access to Wasteland to keep permission spells relevant and to make your tempo gains with aether vial even bigger.
And I'd go with this answer, though I don't know the best way to fit Relics in vs Miracles.
Thanks! I really tried to keep it as short and concise as possible while still addressing what the matches actually came down to. Let's get to it:
Most likely it was an oversight in my testing. In my testing, I was never really questioning the place of CotVoids, but rather side-board cards and which main-deck spells other than vial, fow, and cotv. Going forward I'm testing with Spell Pierces and enjoying it so far.
Exactly that, I was fine overloading because of the exact dual roles each card filled. Because I'm not playing with Ponder/Brainstorm I felt the need for more copies, and multiple Relics are hardly an issue and even necessary because you need to blow them up at separate times. I still am happy with those 5 slots.
I just enjoy how powerful it is if you do have the time to deploy it. I want it because of the prevalence of URx delver decks and how hard it hits them. I don't want to to gun down elves or storm, but I'm glad to hit them as well.
You are definitely on point. The one thing is that a resolved Chalice can keep them from fixing their hands, but if you're on the draw it means they likely resolved 2-3 cantrips before it. But this would often happen in testing, where they only get to resolve 1-2 cantrips before a chalice and get stuck with a pretty bad hand.
I did a LOT of games against miracles over the weekend in my down-time. I actually didn't often like dazes, but it depends on the game plan. It seems like you're on board with over-extending and then battling over Terminus? I think that's a fine plan, because you win the fight over Terminus if they have just 2-4 lands.
Side-question. What is your realistic 60 after sideboard against miracles? I have issues deciding what to actually board out.
I saw Chalice decks as good enough against those decks. We've pretty much determined the Miracles m/u is favorable as both versions. Omnitell I definitely didn't know how I wanted to battle them. Going forward, I'm down with Spell Pierces. And with that comes Standstills I suppose.
All in all, I think the most important thing we have to determine in the upcoming weeks is if we want to be on Chalice of the Void or not.
Could you elaborate why you don't want FOW, please?
And could the others answer how do you side vs Miracles?
Thanks
My usual plan against miracles to play some threats and wait for them to deal with them until they run out of cards, so I don't want to two for one myself too often. I like FOWing SDT on turn one though, and sometimes you need an answer to entreat to prevent them for turning the corner. Sometimes they have stoneforge in the board, or other cards that can be hard to beat. I do feel like 4 FOW is too much, but if you prefer to play the tempo plan and fight over terminus then you can keep them in (I just always feel like playing the tempo game against miracles is risky, as that's what they are designed to beat, but that's just my view).
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/19943#280681
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/19562#275837
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/17588#249283
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/19075#268365 (he probably mulled to oblivion :D)
In 9 months the same guy won 3 legacy tournaments with the same deck.
Winning that many 40+ people tournaments (relevant in my book) is not easy.
There are videos of him trashing his opponents if anyone is interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwtpXxY9VaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACM7tVtcMNk
Is he here on this forum? Maybe someone knows him?
Anyway, I want your opinion on his deck, what you like or hate.
I have to choose my gp decklist soon and every input is valuable.
Tnx.
My main plan against Miracles is to always have two creatures in play to pressure them, preferably with a Standstill too so that dealing with the creatures is bad for them, but they don't actually have enough removal to stop all of our creatures and their only real way to beat us in that situation is to resolve an Entreat the Angels. Sometimes I'll flash in a Lord at endstep to try to beat them right away but most of the time it's just unnecessary. If I just turn Terminus into a 1-for-1, I don't actually have to stop it.
Most of the time my sideboard has nothing I really, really want against Miracles, but if I have a few cards (like Vapor Snag and Wasteland) that are really pretty lackluster I can usually bring in my third Spell Pierce, my 1 Pithing Needle, stuff like that. Usually I don't have more than two or three cards to board out so it's not too tricky to sideboard in a few relevant things. I strongly try to avoid boarding in stuff that might help a little (like Relic of Progenitus) but that isn't actually all that game-breaking, just because the deck is already built to beat Miracles so sideboarding very much is probably just making the deck worse in games 2 and 3.
I think you can maindeck to beat miracles. Unless of course, they have peacekeeper.
That is exactly what I'm saying. I actually try to choose sideboard cards that won't be powerful against Miracles simply so I don't have cards I need to board in since my maindeck is so good. I win 80%+ of my games against Miracles, and that isn't an exaggeration.
I believe you.
Miracles, Omnitell are great matchups. I just don't see why no one is playing this deck. Its a good meta choice right now.
Totally agree it is as well. Most people just see it as cute and don't consider it Tier 1. Lots of Legacy players are just stuck in their ways...
Hello guys,
FANAttIC, to answer your specific question about Stuetzle's deck:
- I really like its take on the battle plan: you apply constant pressure with minimal disruption and you get the job done fast (with 14 lords total if your count the PIs).
- The 2 Jittes main seam great to improve your match-up against other creature decks but seem fairly meta-dependent (where I play they would often be irrelevant). However nowadays, even in the miracles' match-up, you have targets, either snappies or cliques or mentors...
- I think that with 20 lands (8 wastelandable) and 7 3-drops, he is very happy when he has vial, I'd rather have the 21st (I even go to 22, but I play wasteland so...) but again this fits his plan.
- In a meta filled with miracles the abundance of creatures and the overwhelming pressure associated with it, as well as the 4 caverns seem fantastic.
- I think he is in a slightly rougher situation when facing combo, but looking at the decks he faces in his reported meta (at least top8 and top16 when available), they seem underrepresented (at least compared to where I play).
- All in all, I think it is a great choice if you expect only BUGs, miracles and other "fair" creature decks (such as death&taxes and Delvers), much less so if you expect lots of combos (even if his SB seems geared towards addressing his suboptimal main in game 1). I thus think that his bad match-ups (in the decks to beat on the source) are Grixis control (with cabal therapy and all of their removal) and Show&Tell (or Omnitell or whatever you want to call the specific version), and he is pretty weak to Storm variants in general. His sideboard is also a little light on graveyard hate for my personal taste. In any case, if you like to smash faces, his strategy seems pretty well-tuned. If you want to play on the more controlling and/or tempo side of things, then it is not ideal.
- Last but not least, he has a very streamlined deck which is pretty great when you plan on playing a full GP and that you know that autopilot can save you from time to time...another factor to consider IMO.
Anyway, hope this helps,
Cheers,
His list is very consistent which helps with consistency as silly as it is to say.
The additional lords is quite the stance to take, but one I could get behind in how they let you press your tempo advantage and increase your clock dramatically.
The double Jitte seems clunky to me, but it has a place.
I like the Swan Songs, but I generally want my first two Flusterstorms before any number of Swan Songs.
Just wanted to reiterate these points.
BTW for you and anyone I'm glad to test any matchup on Cockatrice in the coming weeks as y'all prepare for GP Lille. PM if you need!
also I highly recommend reading Philipp Schönegger's last article (on mtgmintcard) about the Legacy metagame you can expect at GP Lille.
He also gives a nice overview of how top tier decks work and how to disrupt them efficiently.
A must-read IMO before the GP.
Best,
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