Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I really like the streamlined look of this but no titans make me sad. I wondered too if you could comment on the value of having bog and tabernacle in the main versus in the sideboard.
Last edited by Ponders; 06-19-2015 at 07:32 PM.
Hi everyone! I'm not a Twelvepost player, I just wanted to share with you an article I wrote about the deck. I know a few very experienced pilots, and I wanted to share their lists and explore the archetype. The article isn't about which list is the best, but rather a way to start thinking about the reasons for why a particular list looks the way it does. Here it goes, tell me what you think!
New is always better - Over the top with Twelvepost
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Gents, I recently bought into this deck (mon-g version) on MTGO. Played some matches , but rarely managed to go much further than 5 mana before being swamped over, this has left me with some questions (yes, I read the primer and watched some videos of the deck in play) on which I appreciate your help:
- Is there a theoretical right order to play / fetch lands?
- Thespian Stage. What do you use the 2 ability for, what do you copy?
- Eye of Ugin. I’m usually so petrified to play it (in case there’s a Wasteland coming) that is just sits on my hand. Is this one of the first things to find and put in play?
- Bojuka Bog. Is it really maindeck material? What are its uses besides dredge / ichorid?
- What is the theoretical ideal first turn play : Cloudpost? Top? Needle? Map?
- Expedition map. Should you ever play it if you don’t have 3 mana to play and immediately turn it sideways and fetch the land?
- Crop rotation. Is this only used for the ‘silver bullet’ effect? (ie, getting bojuka bog for example.) If not, is there a theoretical plan of sacrifices? (ie, what do you sacrifice, in order to get what)
- Am I making it a big mistake into thinking there is some form of ideal scripting (game plan) you can follow and this deck actually is just ‘take it as they come’ sort of thing?
Thanks for any help!
It's not easy to give an easy walkthrough beacuse situations vary. I can give some pointers, though:
Eye of Ugin: this is the land that finds your win con. So typically you fetch and play it when you have ramped/are about to ramp to eldrazi mana. It takes 20 mana to tutor and cast Emrakul the same turn. You want to get a safe activation out of it so some random corner cases aside, there's no point in playing Eye if you have less than 7 mana ready.
Bojuka Bog: it's a silver bullet against gravayard combos and has some value against everything that likes to delve. Dig Through Time being legal makes this very maindeckable, and it is also pretty much your only interaction against Past in Flames decks preboard.
Crop Rotation: it counters Wastelands and finds 1-ofs.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Thanks for the info.
I'm just completely bamboozled with this deck. Fingers crossed it will 'click' at some point.
Fetch lands? How many other lands do you have? Play them if you can tap other lands for mana and save their shuffle effects. If you need to Crack them for mana, try to play something else and tap that first.
Thespian stage is there for the dark depths combo. If you're not running depths idk why you'd run Thespian.
Ugin was covered
Bojuka bog is absolutely main deck necessary. It was sideboarded a couple times by myself and others to great detriment.
In the blind? I'd play needle first, then top, then map unless I'm land screwed then of course map first. Blind Cloudposts are sometimes correct but a turn 1 wasteland on your lonely Cloudpost sucks a bunch.
Yes. Sometimes getting map destroyed is good. Now they don't have answers to things you care more about. If you need that map to resolve and get land, then Yeah wait to play it.
Crop is wonderful cause early game it's defensive and late game it goes and gets that last critical Cloudpost or eye. Or karakas to seal the deal (emrakul infinite turns)
One of the mvp's in this deck
Hope this helps
Thanks.
Still a bit confused about crop rotation. Say you have a post in play, opponent wastelands it, you go crop-sac post-new post in. You are still one post down, yes, you end up with a post in play but in overall numbers, you are still a post down.
My biggest challenge atm is that I cannot really make the ramp work. 9 out of 10 times, I cannot go over 4-5 lands in play before my opponent rolls over me.
BTW, this is my list:
1 All Is Dust
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Crop Rotation
1 Dark Depths
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Expedition Map
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Into the North
1 Karakas
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Moment's Peace
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Pithing Needle
4 Primeval Titan
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Vesuva
3 Windswept Heath
Being "down a post" in your deck is a non-issue if rather than losing one entirely to wasteland you can have one in play.
Crop rotating a Post into another Post in response to a Wasteland IS countering their Wasteland because with other posts/vesuvas in hand you will be up mana.
In regards to getting rolled over before doing anything, it sounds like you have to learn how to finagle your way around aggro decks, unless you're just losing to fast combo constantly which can suck.
The deck certainly takes some getting used to, I'm just getting back into it myself.
Thanks re the crop information.
And yes, its combo mostly (ichorid and omni for example), but even a UWR delver just rolled over me.
I'm a returning player and have been absent for more than a decade. I always loved the post. I've tried to play the cloud posts even before the vesuva/glimmer posts. :)
Anywayzs after my recent good pulls from mm2015 i decided to go for the 12 post and bought some of the missing cards. I'm looking to improve my current kitchen table configuration of the deck (which is very good at my local kitchen tables despite being an awkward build). So basically I’m going to improve this deck, but I set my self on some restrictions to protect my bank account. So until I trade / sell of my other staple cards I’m not going to go all out on this. I want to take it step by step. So here’s my question, what cards are no brainers for the deck, in terms they will “always” be played in the deck? Here is my line of thinking, I’d appreciate any suggestions and feedback:
No brainer cards for 12-post(?):
Karakas – this seems to pop up in almost every list, I probably can’t miss by buying it right?
Tropical island / misty rainforest – since I’m set on the UG (really like the control aspect of the deck) there is no real way around these right? except Breeding Pool which would have to be replaced later on anywayz?
Candelabra of Tawnos – guess this one is a no brainer and is here to stay?
Cards I’m not really sure are worth buying (money better spent on the no brainer section?):
Cavern of souls – since I got my Titan countered many times I’m thinking of getting one, but I’m not sure – is it worth buying for this deck?
Ugin – seems popular, I like the card in general, but am not sure if it’s worth buying as a dedicated card for the 12 post?
Sensei's Divining Top – maybe this should be moved to the no brainer section?
Maze of Ith
Mox Diamond
Oblivion Stone
Dark Depths
Force of Will
Show and Tell
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale – this one I may never buy since it’s very pricey
Budget section, cards that won’t hurt my bank account too much and would be good to keep in the closet, MB or SB to give some flexibility and tweaking options. Despite the low price tag I would like to exclude cards that are just plain bad for the deck:
Sphere of Resistance
Stifle
Arcane Laboratory
Blue Elemental Blast
Brainstorm
Cloud of Faeries
Dryad Arbor
Exploration
Green Sun's Zenith
Krosan Grip
Manabond
Mindbreak Trap
Moment's Peace
Oracle of Mul Daya
Pithing Needle
Standstill
Snap
Submerge
Surgical Extraction
Thespian's Stage
Tidespout Tyrant
Trickbind
Trinisphere
Venser, Shaper Savant
So what did i miss in the list above?
On another note (I know it’s not the right place to ask so apologizes in advance), I’m currently in possession of 1x foil tarmogoyf and 1x goyf mint from mm2015. I’m considering trading these for the first no brainer section. Would you guyz rather hold on to the goyfs as the price will probably keep rising(?) and swap them later on? Currently I’m discussing a trade for 1x foil goyf for 1x NM candelabra, is this a valid trade in your respected opinions?
A couple of questions:
Does anyone play gifts ungiven?
Would you advise going monoG considering my budget restraints?
Land (26)
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
3x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Vesuva
3x Yavimaya Coast
Enchantment (1)
1x Exploration
Artifact (4)
4x Expedition Map
Instant (13)
4x Crop Rotation
1x Gifts Ungiven
4x Remand
4x Repeal
Creature (7)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Sorcery (8)
2x All Is Dust
3x Ancient Stirrings
3x Explore
Planeswalker (1)
1x Karn Liberated
Sideboard (9)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Karn Liberated
1x Perilous Vault
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Tectonic Edge
If you're having trouble against Omni due to them casting a second Show and Tell for free you can try increasing the number of triggered abilities from entering the battlefield. Bane of Progress, Khalni Garden, Bojuka Bog, etc - maintain priority with the trigger on the stack and cast Krosan Grip in response. I know it is more work, but you have to take what you can get in those bad matchups sometimes.
I tried for some months your list, that is Kassari's one I think. My thoughts:
- fetchlands in a monogreen deck are usefull only to fix your library for sensei. The advantage given by removing a land draw is minimum. I think 4 are ok, no more.
- thespian stage is usefull only if you have Dark depths. And I would avoid this combo....too slow, too fragile (karakas, swords to plowshares, jace, liliana, wasteland, terminus.....). You need at least 4/5 turns to make marit, and if the opponent nullifies it, you have 2 lands less. So I would remove it, and also thespian, that is usefull only to copy a chasm with too many counter on it. It doesn't worth a slot.
- play Eye of ugin only if you have some mana on the battlefield, or put in game with titan. Never put it on the first 3 rounds if you don't have a needle on the battlefield.
-bojuka, main, yes. It helps you againt A LOT of decks. There are a lot of decks that use delve for their cards; and you can make tarmo littler by removing opponent's graveyard; against lands you are protected against continous life from the loam; against reanimator, all spells, dredge and so on its use is obvious. If it's useless (for example....merfolks), it gives you mana. And you can always crop it for something better.
- first turn: forest+sensei. This is IN GENERAL the safest play: you can understand opponent's deck (mainly if he has wasteland and counter) and you are ready to fix your library. Put a cloudpost only if you have other land (not vesuva), you can risk a wasteland and stay with no mana. Also mana+map is good. I prefer forest+ancient stirring or forest+mirri's guile, they make me start faster.
-play map also with less than 3 mana. You can always activate it later, also to fix bad cards revealed by sensei. do you fear abrutp decay? no problem, better lose a map than a needle or a candelabra.
-crop as silver bullet is ok. Also against a wasteland, you save your land. eot to fix your mana and get another cloudpost to have tons of mana in your turn. Or eye of ugin, if you already have a lot of mana but no titan.
-this is not an easy deck: there are a lot of choices to do in game, and also deckbuilding is very complicated, as you can see from the variety of deck. There is no "good list", you have a lot of choice. The basic idea is to put a titan into the battlefield, with show and tell, natural order, or mana. But sometimes, also if the opponent has no wasteland, the colorless way is good: cloud, cloud+candelabra, glimmer, and you have tons of mana at third turn to cast wurmcoil, ugin, kozilek. Try always to do something, put pressure on opponent.
This is a very good point to remember and will definitely give you more edge in the MU.
Also, the poster above who is building the deck on a budget, if you are running the U/G version but have no FoWs, then I would definitely say switch to the mono green version. You can play ancient stirrings to find your posts. I would also go up to 4 explores. The best way to combat Aggro strategies is to ramp quickly to get your haymakers on the board. I do think cavern is a must at least as a one of. I am now playing three as what I've noticed is you are racing delver or young pyromancer. You finally hit 6 mana to cast a Titan and just lose to FoW. The Titan has to land or you are dead. Candelabra isn't absolutely necessary but it is REALLY good. I love having them with a maze to untap multiple attackers. And yes, karakas is necessary as it is the card that gives you infinite turns. This comes up often, as sometimes you don't win with one Eemrakul swing and would die on the swingback (especially against young pyro or mentor decks). I had a game yesterday where I was playing the mirror. They were way ahead and played Kozilek 3 times. I kept bouncing it with karakas and was finally able to get enough mana to play my Emrakul and then just bounced it and replayed it until I could play it with my own mana (was using his post count initially).
Anyway, fun deck but there is a learning curve and a lot of tricks with the deck. Also, just my opinion but Oracle is bad. It is way too slow and ends up being just a 4 cc explore most of the time. It might progress you from 4 to 6 mana but you really want your acceleration to be faster than that.
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One of the best things of this deck is that there is infinite possible builds as opposed to a lot of mainstream legacy decks. Also, you have to find the mix that works best for you. I personally never played more than 3 tops, because I always draw multiples, which is usually bad. The deck is highly adaptable for most metagames. Although heavy combo meta is the worst, especially decks that don't have silver bullet answers against them (IE omnitell).
Rock said it best in the primer, playing this deck you will make 3x the decisions of any other legacy deck. The more you play, the more scenario's you'll be put in and figure out what works and what doesn't.
Many thanks, all the information is much helpful.
Natural Order seems definitively to be the missing link in my head.
I agree with you about the importance of cavern, but really, 3? You have 4 stirrings, maybe 3 map, and 4 crop. I mean, 3 cavern should be ok, but what do you leave for them? It's a very HARD decision for me. And against no counter decks, you have 3 dead cards (ok, they give you colorless mana....).
Candelabra is not necessary, but it's like a black lotus in t1.....ok, you can play without it, but the game change a lot if it's on board....this deck is not tier1, let's try to make it more competive, not less! :D
You know, I don't know what to say about natural order. In my list I thought was a must-have, but I made several test and I never succeded to play it XD. If you want to use it, you have to put more dryad in your deck, 'cause using natural order on oracle is tooooo slow. Casta a cc4, then on the next turn cast natural, you can't use it before 5 turn if everything is good. Ok, you have explore and maybe a lot of cloudpost, but let's be honest, you will not use it on the third turn. It's good for elves, not for us. Show&Tell is the only "cheat" that is usefull in our deck, I think.
I know that a lot of list has natural order, but in my opinion you have to dedicate to it too much cards, I don't like this. I think the deck is not built around natural order.
Yeah, I was at 2 for a while but then lost a couple close ones in a row because I didn't have it. They still serve as a second green for Titans even against non-blue decks so still ok. I'm also still running 11 other green sources which I think is pretty standard. I have had games where I don't get the green mana I need, but changing one cavern to a forest probably isn't going to make that much of a difference.
Also to the other poster, I played 2 x natural order myself for a while but cut them due to inconsistency. You had to have that and a fetch for dryad arbor and would have to wait until turn 5 or your arbor would die. One more turn and I would just play the Titan. It would also get countered a lot so I would now be down a land as well. If I were to go back to trying to cheat something in, I would probably play 1-2 copies of Eureka instead, as you can also drop Ugin and Eldrazi with that. Just don't play it against Omnishow of course. Also, try not to get your deck ripped off. Between tabernacle, candelabras, karakas, duals (in some cases) and potentially eureka, this is not the cheapest deck to build.
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I found another wonderful card against burn.
In my list at the moment I have elderscal wurm, but it's very hard to survive to reach 7/8 mana (with GSZ). With no leyline and natural order, if I don't see a sphere of resitance, trinisphere, rule of law or something similiar, I'm dead. And in g2/g3 I have to fight against price of progress too.... I think energy storm could be great: 2 mana, easy to play and also in early game. It locks the game, giving me time to build my ramp. Comulative upkeep is always a pain in the ass, but 1 can be ok, I don't know. My only fear is that the opponent will surely have 7 cards in hand when I'll sacrifice energy storm, and it will release all the damage.....I should always keep a crop rotation in hand before dismiss energy storm. What do you think?
Nice one, Eureka. Did not know that one, certainly worth a try.
I play this on MTGO, so the cost is a fraction of cardboard, for example Eureka, costs $0.08, Tabernacle costs about $22, Karakas is about $3...
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