[Primer] Elves!

[Lemnear]

There are different reasons why Collected Company can be better than NO:
- Natural Order getting countered is much more annoying than anything else.
Ah, and Collected Company revealing a Visionary and a Ranger is an impactful play your opponent even has to counter? No, it's not. You are not overloading your opponents counter targets like 4 NO would, but reduce them for a play with much less impact instead
- You need more slots for the NO plan.
Says the guy who has space to run Ezuri and Regal Force...
- less dead draws (Can't you remember games losing with some Orders/Behemoths in your hand?)
you mean the games where I don't get to 4 mana in the first place? Can't see how Collected Company helps here.
- multiple NOs aren't that good...
They are must-counters or your opponent dies. Much better than get two random elves for 4 mana your opponent doesn't even have to bother countering
- instant speed!
-> can response to Priest/Cage and stuff
-> can be cast in your opponent's turn after untapping Elves with Ranger/Symbiot.
-> best card to comeback after Terminus, since you still can flood 4 mana.
@ Lemnear: "~time walk" -> use your manasources twice, "~carddraw" -> get two for one and "~tutor" -> search top 6

Keeping 4+ mana open at all times is not the definition of "timewalking"! Not at all! You do not get to use your mana twice as you need to keep it open at all times! "in response to cage" is plain stupid for the reasons mentioned and as a gameplan in general. The same is true for Terminus. You keep 4+ open against terminus which you should not overextend into from the start? Look at top 6 cards =/= tutor. Have you ever calculated how many Elves you reveal in average with this card or how big the selection you can choose from really is if CC resolves?

Hell, the deck would be king of the hill, if there there no combo decks killing you, while you durdle with "4 mana CA +1" or wipe your board, so you never get to 4 mana in the first place. Arguing from a position to have a bunch of Elves in play and 4+ mana available at all times and never facing a deck which blows you and your low impact play out in a single turn, is a mindset totally off from reality and ignores all the decks problems

The list isn't as explosives as the regular build is for sure! But it is still explosive enough to pile increasing pressure against your opponent. You are more addicted to find your Insects for Elites and Visionary as well as for your Shaman of the Pack for the kill. But the Shaman isn't the only wincondition as you might have seen. I try to compensate Glimpse and Craterhoof with Regal Force and Ezuri. Not sure if it is correct or even necessary. But I guess I don't need the Force.

You really think every matchup is against Stoneblade and D&T in this metagame, don't you? This complete gameplan falls apart even if you play against Jund or Lands, not even talking about all forms of Control and Combo. I don't know how you get the idea that you should cut Glimpse for Collected Company in the first place. It's absurd.

I expected some reactions like yours...
I got to say: THIS is a approach - no claim to be super overpowered yet.
If you don't see any upsides, it's fine for me. But if you have any more ideas or suggestions, just let me know.

It's an approach which isn't thought through and justifies itself with a hilarious estimation in regards to matchups, board and mana total. Of course you can bet I bite, if you cut Glimpse without bothering to explain why, but try to tell me that keeping 4+ mana up at all times is the definition of "timewalking"

[elFinFas]

What would you people think that is the best build for this gp lille?

[Lemnear]

What would you people think that is the best build for this gp lille?

It's a bit late to ask here, no? I mean you can just ask the players at the GP directly. Edit: in addition, I already answered that question Weeks ago

[Echelon]

It's a bit late to ask here, no? I mean you can just ask the players at the GP directly. Edit: in addition, I already answered that question Weeks ago

Yeah, yeah, just go and rap already, you silly gangster.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, yeah, just go and rap already, you silly gangster.

I have a GP to play, dood

[Echelon]

I have a GP to play, dood

So disappointing. Real gangstas can play and rap, dammit.

If you happen to get in a futured match, do all communication with your opponent in rap or rhyme will you? Would be funny as hell.

Good luck at the GP man!

[QBChaz]

Best of luck to everyone who will be battling through in Lille with the little green men. I am gutted not to be able to get there myself. May Titania be with you!

That said: I expect some Top 8 action! Bring it on!

[Lemnear]

Best of luck to everyone who will be battling through in Lille with the little green men. I am gutted not to be able to get there myself. May Titania be with you!

That said: I expect some Top 8 action! Bring it on!

Also green men, just a different tribe, I fear

[AznSeal]

With the recent trend of talking about bad cards for the deck, I started thinking about what this deck needs to compete better.

It seems that with the popularity of miracles and omnitell, we're in a bad spot. I got bored and started daydreaming about what cards need to be printed to be able to make the cut for this deck since our 75 is so tight. I came to 2 ideas that may make the cut:

Choke on a Stick
Creature - Elf Shaman
Cost - 1G
P/T - 1/2
Islands don't untap during their controllers untap phase
Flavor text: something about the forest taking back it's land

Green Akroma
Creature - doesnt matter
Cost - doesnt matter, just green and be natural orderable
P/T - 6/6 or better
Lifelink, Protection from White or Hexproof/shroud

I feel like if something similar to those 2 cards get printed, we're in good shape. One for blue decks, and the other as a target where you need to race fair decks but it dodges path and can give you life, unless Progenitus.

Or Dig Through Time can get banned.

tl;dr: I'm just wishing on cards because im bored and want elves to be good again :(

[Echelon]

Those'd be better if they used a construction similar to gods. Creatures when in the library so you can tutor for them, enchantments on the board when you don't have enough devotion (or something similar). Otherwise you still get f'd by Terminus.

[QBChaz]

Yeah, we would need things that could remain on the board after a Terminus. That is partly what WR Packmaster does because it has a "leaves the battlefield" trigger. Those are really the only kind of effects that can live through Terminus.

[Infinitium]

Vengevine takes advantage of cheap creatures and bouncers. Evolutionary Leap takes advantage of cheap creatures and surplus mana. Evolutionary Leap protects Vengevine from exiling or tucking removal. Vengevine kills JtMS. Evolutionary Leap comes down T2. Vengevine trades with angel tokens. Evolutionary Leap and mana means a player would never run out of creature cards to cast with Glimpse, nor run out of creatures full stop in the face of removal. Vengevine is effectively uncounterable. Evolutionary Leap digs for Vengevine. Vengevine is tutorable off GSZ. Evolutionary Leap could really use creaures that recurs for free.

Shame about Elves not being able to run 3 separate engines, right? Right.

[QBChaz]

Well if we ever wanted to improve the Death and Taxes match-up (LOL):

[Zombie]

Vengevine takes advantage of cheap creatures and bouncers. Evolutionary Leap takes advantage of cheap creatures and surplus mana. Evolutionary Leap protects Vengevine from exiling or tucking removal. Vengevine kills JtMS. Evolutionary Leap comes down T2. Vengevine trades with angel tokens. Evolutionary Leap and mana means a player would never run out of creature cards to cast with Glimpse, nor run out of creatures full stop in the face of removal. Vengevine is effectively uncounterable. Evolutionary Leap digs for Vengevine. Vengevine is tutorable off GSZ. Evolutionary Leap could really use creaures that recurs for free.

Shame about Elves not being able to run 3 separate engines, right? Right.

The only problem with that is speed threat against combo, ie. you'd need to integrate disruption somehow. If that can be done somehow, it could be good.

[Infinitium]

Evolutionary Leap is a good card in green creature synergy.dec allright. Don't even get me started on Wirewood Hivemaster. I guess it remains to be seen whether it's better than the multitude of good cards already available, but being a cheap in-colour enabler of busted shit you already want to be doing (eg flooding and protecting the board) speaks in its favour. Opposing combo is still a problem, but then again it always was. I mean consider this list:

ELVES: EVOLUTION

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Pendelhaven
4 Gaea's Cradle

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Vengevine

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Evolutionary Leap

SIDEBOARD
More Vengevines, Reclamation Sages, Dwynen, Cabal Therapy, Surgical Extraction, Abrupt Decay, whatever.

Obviously the exact card ratios are of less importance. Evolutionary Leap works as a one-sided Fecundity and provides repleneshing chumpers. Pair it with the Vengevine and you have a card advantage engine that survives sweepers. With Hivemaster in play every elf you play starts repleneshing itself (with the potential of non-Glimpse elfball turns given cradle mana). Early game you threaten Glimpse -> win against noninteractive decks, and lategame fair decks will eventually be overrun by recurring card advantage. Shaman of the Pack remains pretty meh in my book but is the best win condition I can think of atm. It remains to be seen whether it can compete with the meta but given the synergies and the fact that every engine piece is a reasonably good card in its own right it does seem stronk indeed from a purely theoretical standpoint.

[Echelon]

And how does switching NO's out for other "combo" cards improve consistency?

Near the top of this page, Zombie outlined a number of problems the Elves! deck currently has. Could you explain how your build improves on that? Or how it's better/faster/more efficient then the "Oops, I topdeck NO & win" you strip from the deck?

[Lemnear]

Evolutionary Leap suggested in Elves just shows that people do not understand the cards purpose at all and try to see similarities to Survival despite there are none except the casting and activation cost

P.S. Just for your Entertainment: I managed to lose against Elves this weekend via hilarious bad beat

[Echelon]

Evolutionary Leap suggested in Elves just shows that people do not understand the cards purpose at all and try to see similarities to Survival despite there are none except the casting and activation cost

P.S. Just for your Entertainment: I managed to lose against Elves this weekend via hilarious bad beat

That does entertain me!

And yeah, I know. I was just trying a friendly approach to get him to see that. You might want to do a rap on this one, though. Evolutionary Biscuits to go with the Ogre Tea?

[IMarques]

And how does switching NO's out for other "combo" cards improve consistency?

Near the top of this page, Zombie outlined a number of problems the Elves! deck currently has. Could you explain how your build improves on that? Or how it's better/faster/more efficient then the "Oops, I topdeck NO & win" you strip from the deck?

I would agree with Echelon and Lemnear, although I do see one big advantage to Evolutionary Leap vs. Miracles. In response to Terminus, we can sac the team and fill our hand with a few guys to replay and maintain pressure. Vengevine becomes attractive under these circumstances, because we can sac it to avoid Terminus/Swords. Notice that it comes into play on casting of two creature spells, not playing them. This means we can get it into play even through Counterbalance. In this case, it actually does solve one of our two problems.

The question is how much do we lose versus the rest of the field in order to enact this plan. Is it worth potentially 4 sideboard or main deck slots?

-IM

[Echelon]

You forget the part where you have to keep open N mana where N is the number of guys you want to save, turn after turn after turn.